Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

[thegiantess]

I don't really count calories daily, but I am guessing somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 depending on the day. And I don't eat low carb. I eat sugar to cravings and sometimes in excess of cravings (which is when I start to put on weight - this is problematic for me). Normally, if I follow my gut instinct with carbs, I eat predominantly fruit based carbs - lots of OJ and some fruit - and sugar in my coffee. Also, I'm a candy lover.

The problem for me with a high sugar, high carb and fruit based diet is, A) Most fruits cause me issues unless cooked; oranges are fine and sometimes grapes, B) I can't eat starch in anything more than very small quantities, C) I wouldn't get enough nutrient dense foods & proteins. Remove fat from dairy and say goodbye to vitamins A & K. Don't eat beef and say goodbye to a plethora of nutrients. Same with eggs & cheese. If nutrients are important, I don't see how low fat is an option. But I guess that's why people like supplements.

I eat lowfat (approx 15% of calories depending on the day) and according to cronometer I meet my nutrient needs pretty well. I do 1% milk and eat beef, but drain the fat (ground) and also bison. A few shots of liver a few times a month and then other nutrient powerhouses occasionally like oysters. I find it incredibly hard to meet b vitamins without wheat. Long fermented wheats are just so vitamin rich!

 

[tyw]

Very good blogpostt tyw

Ancient Civilisations Considered Advanced-AF. Modern Day Health Implications

Watching this video atm

Hehehe, that's one of my favourite topics

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I think Olive Oil has a decent ammount of Vitamin E which prevents oxidisation of the oil ???

The stability of Olive oil is seriously going to vary by source and processing methods. There are many factors that affect oxidative stability of olive oil. Vitamin E is one of them, but so are the polyphenols, and some studies will even get into the "cloudiness" of unfiltered olive oil being a factor -- http://www.uclm.es/grupo/gao/aovc-upv-ehu/tema5/Oxidative stability of virgin olive oil.pdf

NOTE: if you trust the Rancimat test (which is a free-flow air-heated oxidation test, I think is decently valid when tested against olive oil), you can clearly see major differences in induction time of the test (Table 2). Note that higher times mean "more oxidative stability".

There is no doubt that if you compared a substance like Olive oil, with significant unsaturated fats, to a substance like coconut oil, with very few unsaturated fats, then you can say that coconut oil is much less prone to produce oxidative products under almost any condition.

Now, if you get a good extra virgin olive oil, which is unfiltered, kept away from light, not used for high heat cooking (and I consider any pan frying to be high-heat cooking), etc ..... all the best practices that the food connoisseurs say you pamper a good olive oil with , I honestly do not see that olive oil getting oxidised.

There are many people who use "light olive oil" for high heat cooking methods, and more often than not, "high smoke point" (ie: high free fatty acid), filtered and processed olive oil, which likely has all these oxidation protective compounds removed. Using such oils are definitely more prone to produce more load of PUFA and other oxidative side products on the body.

Of course, "light olive oil" still better than using high n-6 oils.

-----

But assuming that we can keep olive oil fresh and unoxidised, then the analysis comes down to:

(1) Identifying compounds in the oils which can be beneficial (I would argue that olive oil has some good effects)
(2) A metabolic comparison of the actual composition of the fats -- this is largely a MUFA vs SFA analysis.

The dominant factor however, is quantity of oil consumed. If we're talking 10g of saturated fat vs 10g of extra virgin olive oil ...... honestly, the quantities are so small that you have to be really really sensitive to feel a difference (in which case, you have bigger health problems, and need drastic solutions)

If we're talking the multiple tablespoons worth of olive oil that so we see some people eating, then we will probably start to see a functional difference in pure MUFA vs pure SFA consumption.

NOTE: I need to emphasise the "pure MUFA" statement. Butter is still 30% MUFA and PUFA . In reality, coconut oil is about the only source of fat that is >90% saturated. Even palm oil is something like 30-40% MUFA.
​

Regarding point (1), you can go read all the studies out these showing beneficial effects. The main question to me is: "How much olive oil is needed to get this beneficial effect?"

You've heard Peat claim that "teaspoons worth" of coconut oil gave him huge benefits. If similar teaspoons worth of olive can give you great benefit, then honestly, I see little negative effects of saying doing one tablespoon (15g) of well-processed olive oil a day. The "effective dose" of olive oil is unknown to me


Regarding point (2), I think Peter @ Hyperlipid has done all the low-level biomechanical work for us already -- Hyperlipid: Protons: FADH2:NADH ratios and MUFA

The higher-level effects have been addressed by haidut, and of course, if you want Peat's take on things -- Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic


Is there going to be a huge functional difference in MUFA vs SFA? No clue. In principle, we can cite many effects of any amount of fatty acid unsaturation on mitochondrial health (more unsaturation generally compromises metabolic potential). In practice, tissue turnover, body fat percentage, food combinations, etc .... all will have impact, and I don't see a big difference on the whole.

(And of course, know that I am biased towards a generally low fat intake to begin with)


.....

 

[tyw]

Yah I don't think bread is a problem for everyone either. Are you suggesting that gluten causes a leaky gut in all people @tyw ?

Personally I never suspected gluten to cause leaky gut, just that in a person with leaky gut, gluten will cause issues once through the intestinal wall. I could be wrong but gluten has been around for 10,000 years and leaky gut/gluten issues have only really been a problem in the last 50, suggesting that something else was the catalyst (industrial oils, enriched flour).

IMO, the phrase "Leaky Gut" never accurately describes the problem.

The question, "Allowing what exactly to leak out of the gut?" needs to be answered for such a statement to be useful.

On the topic of Gluten, it can and will likely pass through the small intestine in almost anyone who eats it. Gliadin can probably also interact with the intestinal tract, can likely activate the "estrogen receptors", and generally induce an immune response.

I generally disagree with the idea of inherent "autoimmunity", but the fact that even 1mg of gluten can affect some of the worst coeliac patients, is probably indicative of a very fast, cascading systemic breakdown of communication between components induced by the initial stress of gluten .... The proline and glutamine in gliadin is powerful stuff.


I think it's completely fair to say that eating gluten demands "more of a response" from the body, as compared to many other substances. I don't want to go into all the detailed biomechanics, because it's a long deep dive with lots of literature out there already ......

Practically speaking, can your body mount the "correct response"? Dunno. Depends on so many factors ...... I for one am not inherent sensitive to gluten, though I avoid it almost all of the time based on risk factors .... Unless I'm on holiday in Japan



Of course, in coeliac disease, avoid gluten at all costs. In fuzzy cases where gluten "doesn't seem to be doing harm", it comes down to a philosophical choice.

I make my philosophy very clear -- any potential risk or uncertainty that can be avoided, should be avoided ...... but I can't answer that question for people .


......

 

[tyw]

And I am curious, if you have a low fat diet with zero fermentable carbs, what is your protein intake like @tyw? I've thought about changing up my diet and giving low fat a try again, but I would have a really difficult time getting nutrient dense proteins (like eggs, dairy - loss of vitamins in low fat versions, beef, etc.)

Additionally, I'm curious about your thoughts on these studies? I was looking something about endotoxin up on PubMed and these popped up. Thanks!!

Triglyceride-rich lipoproteins prevent septic death in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Chylomicrons alter the fate of endotoxin, decreasing tumor necrosis factor release and preventing death. - PubMed - NCBI

Chylomicrons enhance endotoxin excretion in bile. - PubMed - NCBI

These studies are a bit vague in their description of "triglycerides", but my initial limited understanding was that this was referring to cholesterol rich proteins - maybe such as eggs..... But I could be totally off on this.

Chylomicrons are basically triglycerides with a bunch of proteins and "other stuff" carried along with it. The term "chylomicron triglyceride" is used here to mean those triglycerides specially carried by chylomicrons through the process of digestion.

This should be distinguished from say, free triglycerides that you mobilise from body fat during fasting, which are not in chylomicron form.


And yes, those studies again confirm the idea that chylomicrons help to "Quarantine and transport toxins for eventual disposal" . Again, the assumption is that the body is capable of dealing with those quarantined compounds. This is where you mileage may vary, and real-world experimentation needs to be done.

.....

 

[lindsay]

So I'm curious - if the small intestine is clearing things out well and loaded with endotoxin - what might explain endotoxin issues in the large intestine? Even if there are regular bowel movements?

I meant to write "Not" loaded with endotoxin.

 

[Makrosky]

Hehehe, that's one of my favourite topics

----




The stability of Olive oil is seriously going to vary by source and processing methods. There are many factors that affect oxidative stability of olive oil. Vitamin E is one of them, but so are the polyphenols, and some studies will even get into the "cloudiness" of unfiltered olive oil being a factor -- http://www.uclm.es/grupo/gao/aovc-upv-ehu/tema5/Oxidative stability of virgin olive oil.pdf

NOTE: if you trust the Rancimat test (which is a free-flow air-heated oxidation test, I think is decently valid when tested against olive oil), you can clearly see major differences in induction time of the test (Table 2). Note that higher times mean "more oxidative stability".

There is no doubt that if you compared a substance like Olive oil, with significant unsaturated fats, to a substance like coconut oil, with very few unsaturated fats, then you can say that coconut oil is much less prone to produce oxidative products under almost any condition.

Now, if you get a good extra virgin olive oil, which is unfiltered, kept away from light, not used for high heat cooking (and I consider any pan frying to be high-heat cooking), etc ..... all the best practices that the food connoisseurs say you pamper a good olive oil with , I honestly do not see that olive oil getting oxidised.

There are many people who use "light olive oil" for high heat cooking methods, and more often than not, "high smoke point" (ie: high free fatty acid), filtered and processed olive oil, which likely has all these oxidation protective compounds removed. Using such oils are definitely more prone to produce more load of PUFA and other oxidative side products on the body.

Of course, "light olive oil" still better than using high n-6 oils.

-----

But assuming that we can keep olive oil fresh and unoxidised, then the analysis comes down to:

(1) Identifying compounds in the oils which can be beneficial (I would argue that olive oil has some good effects)
(2) A metabolic comparison of the actual composition of the fats -- this is largely a MUFA vs SFA analysis.

The dominant factor however, is quantity of oil consumed. If we're talking 10g of saturated fat vs 10g of extra virgin olive oil ...... honestly, the quantities are so small that you have to be really really sensitive to feel a difference (in which case, you have bigger health problems, and need drastic solutions)

If we're talking the multiple tablespoons worth of olive oil that so we see some people eating, then we will probably start to see a functional difference in pure MUFA vs pure SFA consumption.

NOTE: I need to emphasise the "pure MUFA" statement. Butter is still 30% MUFA and PUFA . In reality, coconut oil is about the only source of fat that is >90% saturated. Even palm oil is something like 30-40% MUFA.
​

Regarding point (1), you can go read all the studies out these showing beneficial effects. The main question to me is: "How much olive oil is needed to get this beneficial effect?"

You've heard Peat claim that "teaspoons worth" of coconut oil gave him huge benefits. If similar teaspoons worth of olive can give you great benefit, then honestly, I see little negative effects of saying doing one tablespoon (15g) of well-processed olive oil a day. The "effective dose" of olive oil is unknown to me


Regarding point (2), I think Peter @ Hyperlipid has done all the low-level biomechanical work for us already -- Hyperlipid: Protons: FADH2:NADH ratios and MUFA

The higher-level effects have been addressed by haidut, and of course, if you want Peat's take on things -- Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic


Is there going to be a huge functional difference in MUFA vs SFA? No clue. In principle, we can cite many effects of any amount of fatty acid unsaturation on mitochondrial health (more unsaturation generally compromises metabolic potential). In practice, tissue turnover, body fat percentage, food combinations, etc .... all will have impact, and I don't see a big difference on the whole.

(And of course, know that I am biased towards a generally low fat intake to begin with)


.....

Wow, thanks man. I can see indeed it's one of your favourite topics. I agree with the non technical parts of what you said. In my country olive oil is a religion. Anyway... Do you think an oxidisez oil can be recognised by the rancid smell ? Or is it more subtle ? I'm asking you this because I've kep extra virgin olive oil in a opaque bottle for months without signs of spoiling.

 

[tyw]

And note: I only discuss plausible mechanics, and try to qualify them to specific but abstract contexts as much as possible .

The philosophy is:

My Advice is Mine. Your Successes are Yours
I like to give unsolicted advice. That advice is my own. People can choose to take my advice or not. Their successes and their failures are their own.
​

The answer to a question like, "What is tyw's protein intake?", cannot be assumed to be useful to others.

In any case, my protein intake is currently low . Maybe like 100g of protein (say 3 eggs and 300g of meat) every 4 or 5 days, and then most other days I don't even bother counting (definitely <50g). This is all based off my own weird testing methodologies (which will not be discussed )

.....

 

[lindsay]

And yes, those studies again confirm the idea that chylomicrons help to "Quarantine and transport toxins for eventual disposal" . Again, the assumption is that the body is capable of dealing with those quarantined compounds. This is where you mileage may vary, and real-world experimentation needs to be done.

I think orange juice is suppose to suppress endotoxin. There was a study on people eating McDonald's food I remember reading about a long time ago (and I've read other articles since), but orange juice is suppose to suppress the inflammatory endotoxin issues that might arise when eating inflammatory (and fatty) foods.

 

[tyw]

Wow, thanks man. I can see indeed it's one of your favourite topics. I agree with the non technical parts of what you said. In my country olive oil is a religion. Anyway... Do you think an oxidisez oil can be recognised by the rancid smell ? Or is it more subtle ? I'm asking you this because I've kep extra virgin olive oil in a opaque bottle for months without signs of spoiling.

The "favourite topic" comment was referring to global weather effects and large scale electric phenomena

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IMO, determination of "rancid olive oil" is probably practically doable by taste and smell. The generally accepted mechanism seems to be: Production of peroxides --> oxidation of olive oil components to produce breakdown products like alkanals and alkenals which give this "off flavour".

....

 

[lindsay]

The answer to a question like, "What is tyw's protein intake?", cannot be assumed to be useful to others.

In any case, my protein intake is currently low . Maybe like 100g of protein (say 3 eggs and 300g of meat) every 4 or 5 days, and then most other days I don't even bother counting (definitely <50g). This is all based off my own weird testing methodologies (which will not be discussed )

I was just curious because this seems to be an area where I personally have a variety of opinions on and don't necessarily think that the amount of protein RP recommends is necessary. And it's definitely personal. I'm not looking for a guidance from someone, more just curious what a person who eats low fat uses as protein sources. That's all :) I will never try to copy someone else's diet because it worked for them. Really just curious what people out there eat is all! Thanks for your input.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

On the topic of Gluten, it can and will likely pass through the small intestine in almost anyone who eats it. Gliadin can probably also interact with the intestinal tract, can likely activate the "estrogen receptors", and generally induce an immune response.

The whole gluten free thing is mostly marketing. Food companies make huge profits from GF products because they are so cheap to make and they rely on the fact that the public doesn't care to be objective, they just like to buy products because of trends and how "cool" something sounds. If gluten was never named gluten, then it wouldn't be popular. The word "gluten" sounds cool. It sounds like glue. This is what I call the "cool sounding name" theory. If gluten was named something like "triobipherate" and it was this triobipherate that is a protein found in wheat, barley, and rye, and celiac disease was cause by triobipherate sensitivity, then it would not be popular.

Celiac disease is extremely rare. If so many people were truly celiac, you'd see people dying from malnutrition from a destroyed gut lining. One look at high wheat countries such as Italy shows how rare it is.

Outside of true celiacs, the only other problem with gluten is being HLA-DQ, HLA-DQ2 positive. People who are hypothyroid/Hashimoto's, are usually HLA-DQ positive. There are tests to confirm it. So outside of being celiac and being HLA-DQ positive, gluten isn't the problem. It's all the other junk that they are eating.

"Negative results for both HLA-DQ2 and HLA-DQ8 virtually exclude the diagnosis of CD and indicate an extremely low risk for subsequent development of the disease (≥95% negative predictive value).4,5"

 

[redred]

I think its about yeast or sourdough also, preparation. If i eat bread with sourdough I dont feel that bad.

Wonder what quality this olive oil is lol...

 

[tyw]

I was just curious because this seems to be an area where I personally have a variety of opinions on and don't necessarily think that the amount of protein RP recommends is necessary. And it's definitely personal. I'm not looking for a guidance from someone, more just curious what a person who eats low fat uses as protein sources. That's all :) I will never try to copy someone else's diet because it worked for them. Really just curious what people out there eat is all! Thanks for your input.

Good

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Celiac disease is extremely rare. If so many people were truly celiac, you'd see people dying from malnutrition from a destroyed gut lining. One look at high wheat countries such as Italy shows how rare it is.

Outside of true celiacs, the only other problem with gluten is being HLA-DQ, HLA-DQ2 positive. People who are hypothyroid/Hashimoto's, are usually HLA-DQ positive. There are tests to confirm it. So outside of being celiac and being HLA-DQ positive, gluten isn't the problem. It's all the other junk that they are eating.

"Negative results for both HLA-DQ2 and HLA-DQ8 virtually exclude the diagnosis of CD and indicate an extremely low risk for subsequent development of the disease (≥95% negative predictive value).4,5"

You know by now I don't like to complect things , and I will separate things like marketing, from incidence of coeliac disease, from potential stress dynamics.

We shouldn't just say, "gluten isn't the problem"; to build effective risk models, we first start by listing ALL the risks, and then addressing them one by one according to probability of causing us harm.

Each individual will have to have such a risk model matrix, and assess "Is this safe to eat?" on a minute by minute basis.

----

Also, using a particular small set of tests to confirm that gluten "isn't a problem", leaves one vulnerable to the "unknown harms" that a gluten-containing food item may cause. Those tests focus on the gliadin protein, and only some of its limited interactions. What about the rest of the effects of gluten? (which is just given the catch-all term "non-coeliac gluten sensitivity")

----

And of course, we don't eat "gluten" (unless you're Northern Chinese ). We eat food -- pasta, bread, pastries, etc ... "Junk" is not a specific category, and a lot of the "gluten-containing items" also contain a lot of other bad things like PUFA and other chemical additives.

It is more useful to discriminate along specific food items -- "this particular semolina pasta is bad for me", and not just "pasta is bad". "Wholegrain linseed bread makes me bloat", not just "bread is bad".

----

This doesn't change the mechanical effects that many anti-gluten advocates have rightly stated regarding gluten. Whether or not those effects are significant to harming your health is a different story.

----

The more prior issues with digestion that one has had, the more they need to pay attention to specifics. "Healthier people" (whatever that means ) will probably be able to get away with more food stressors.

Gluten remains a potential food-borne stressor. It is important to recognise all foods containing it as such, and encourage some experimentation with and without gluten-containing foods to gauge one's response to the compound.

-----

Random Sidenote: I personally don't like arguments like, "our ancestors have done X for thousands of years". Conditions have changed, and strategies need to adapt. Foodstuffs have changed, and strategies need to adapt.

I can also say for certain right now, that the younger generations (myself included -- I turned 25 in May) are almost uniformly not as resilient as the older folk. This is borne out by the research showing disease states at earlier and earlier ages across big swaths of the population (eg: Haidut's comments about heart lesions in children), as well as in the patient populations that healthcare practitioners see.

Sicker people in a more stressed out world need better strategies. Specific discrimination of foods is just one of those strategies.

.....

 

[tyw]

Yeah mine too. Has it gotten colder in australia? Europe has certainly gotten colder quite quickly.

We're still experiencing the effects of a really strong El-Nino where I'm at (17deg South latitude in Far North Queensland).

The Aussie south is getting record rain and cold (see the massive Tasmanian floods). Where I'm at, it's sunny and 21C to 28C most days (that's 69F to 82F).

We'll see. La Nina should set in by September to October 2016. That's when all of Australia is bound to get colder, with a lot more rain.

....

 

[InChristAlone]

I agree the younger generations are looking more and more sickly. That's why I gave my kids the best start possible with long term breastfeeding. Also no vaccines. And they have only got sick once a year. Usually in the winter of course here in the north. I'll admit though that I sacrificed my own health to provide that milk. It's extremely hard to get that much nutrition in everyday as a stressed out Mom on a budget. I wish nutrition was easier. We are taught not to listen to our bodies and just eat what is served. But I think we could figure out what our bodies need if we still had that intuition. Much like an animal knows how to survive.

 

[thegiantess]

Good

-----



You know by now I don't like to complect things , and I will separate things like marketing, from incidence of coeliac disease, from potential stress dynamics.

We shouldn't just say, "gluten isn't the problem"; to build effective risk models, we first start by listing ALL the risks, and then addressing them one by one according to probability of causing us harm.

Each individual will have to have such a risk model matrix, and assess "Is this safe to eat?" on a minute by minute basis.

----

Also, using a particular small set of tests to confirm that gluten "isn't a problem", leaves one vulnerable to the "unknown harms" that a gluten-containing food item may cause. Those tests focus on the gliadin protein, and only some of its limited interactions. What about the rest of the effects of gluten? (which is just given the catch-all term "non-coeliac gluten sensitivity")

----

And of course, we don't eat "gluten" (unless you're Northern Chinese ). We eat food -- pasta, bread, pastries, etc ... "Junk" is not a specific category, and a lot of the "gluten-containing items" also contain a lot of other bad things like PUFA and other chemical additives.

It is more useful to discriminate along specific food items -- "this particular semolina pasta is bad for me", and not just "pasta is bad". "Wholegrain linseed bread makes me bloat", not just "bread is bad".

----

This doesn't change the mechanical effects that many anti-gluten advocates have rightly stated regarding gluten. Whether or not those effects are significant to harming your health is a different story.

----

The more prior issues with digestion that one has had, the more they need to pay attention to specifics. "Healthier people" (whatever that means ) will probably be able to get away with more food stressors.

Gluten remains a potential food-borne stressor. It is important to recognise all foods containing it as such, and encourage some experimentation with and without gluten-containing foods to gauge one's response to the compound.

-----

Random Sidenote: I personally don't like arguments like, "our ancestors have done X for thousands of years". Conditions have changed, and strategies need to adapt. Foodstuffs have changed, and strategies need to adapt.

I can also say for certain right now, that the younger generations (myself included -- I turned 25 in May) are almost uniformly not as resilient as the older folk. This is borne out by the research showing disease states at earlier and earlier ages across big swaths of the population (eg: Haidut's comments about heart lesions in children), as well as in the patient populations that healthcare practitioners see.

Sicker people in a more stressed out world need better strategies. Specific discrimination of foods is just one of those strategies.

.....

I agree that gluten is a possible food borne stressor. I cut it out of my diet for 4 years for that reason precisely, but that became exhausting and limiting. During that time I was eating insane amounts of rice. I love rice so much! But of course rice has the whole arsenic issue. So I have gone back to long fermented breads and sprouted wheat. I mean, ya just can't win. Either you (maybe) kill your gut with gluten or you slowly poison yourself with rice. A life without both of those is not a life I'm interested in living!

 

[lindsay]

I agree that gluten is a possible food borne stressor. I cut it out of my diet for 4 years for that reason precisely, but that became exhausting and limiting. During that time I was eating insane amounts of rice. I love rice so much! But of course rice has the whole arsenic issue. So I have gone back to long fermented breads and sprouted wheat. I mean, ya just can't win. Either you (maybe) kill your gut with gluten or you slowly poison yourself with rice.

I've been under the opinion for awhile that it's more the yeast than the gluten. But I'm no scientist - just going by the breads I've eaten and tolerated. For awhile during my lower fat stint, I was making this white bread that someone gave me the recipe to. It was suppose to be a "quick" white bread - so it was fed with lots of yeast and rose very quickly. And it made my stomach feel like hell.

For awhile, I tried fermenting and souring my own white flour bread, but I found that the problem with bread is a cumulative effect - same with most starches. The more I eat them daily, it's a build up effect until, WHAM! Endotoxin. Right before I had appendicitis, I was eating loads of starchy carbs - especially white rice and potatoes. At first I felt good, but cumulatively eating the stuff for weeks and before I knew it, I had diarrhea, followed by extreme stomach pain and a 103 F fever for three days and could barely walk. I couldn't look at a potato for a long time after that.

So if I ever say anything negative about starch on here (just saying it here because I know I've mentioned it elsewhere), it's just my own personal experience and I've had trouble with it for many years and can understand those who do. And if you are one of the lucky ones who can tolerate lots of starch, I applaud your amazing tummy and give you many high fives! I wish I could eat loads of bread and rice and all those yummy things! Although, what is rice and bread without butter

That being said, I seem to tolerate simple highly refined white bread very well - the closer to wonder bread the better. Go figure.

@thegiantess - I'm curious, what is your method for souring the dough? I've thought about making some sourdough bread again and giving it another go (albeit, very cautiously), but then my husband decided he wasn't eating bread anymore, so I lost the motivation. Do you eat any other fermented bread products? I know you mentioned previously the B-Vitamin content. I struggle with my B's and am always looking for new options. I had contemplated Marmite, but then realized they just add all these vitamins and I could buy them myself without having to swallow yeast - yuck! I've also found that I adore High Ball Drinks (the organic energy drink). They add B6 and B12 and the combination with caffeine, ginseng and guarana makes me feel great. I've been thinking about adding these things to my coffee and juice.

Anyhow, I'm just going on and on and on now. Thanks for your input!

P.S. I like your profile pic :) Reminds me of those bibs they used to give us when I went to eat lobster as a kid (I grew up in Maine). So necessary when prying apart seafood and smattering it in butter!

"A life without both of those is not a life I'm interested in living!

This is how I feel about cheese and wine. I may carry a slight layer of fat around my mid section from my higher fat intake, and I know alcohol is bad for me, but the amount of pure joy I get from eating my gouda cheese with a glass of white wine is priceless.

 

[schultz]

This is how I feel about cheese and wine. I may carry a slight layer of fat around my mid section from my higher fat intake, and I know alcohol is bad for me, but the amount of pure joy I get from eating my gouda cheese with a glass of white wine is priceless.

I think people underestimate the value of enjoying your food.

 

[lindsay]

I think people underestimate the value of enjoying your food.

Ray Peat regularly says that eating foods that taste good are important :) But my tastebuds could tell me that too. I've fought the low fat high sugar thing for awhile because I just really like the combination of a little fat and a little sugar together. If I swing in either direction too far (meaning high fat, lower sugar and low fat, higher sugar), the pleasure center disappears.

So I must ask, do you make your own goats' milk cheese? I love anything with goats' milk It's my dream to have a small farm one day - with goats, chickens and maybe a cow. I think I would be so happy having animals around all the time.

 

[Derek]

For awhile, I tried fermenting and souring my own white flour bread, but I found that the problem with bread is a cumulative effect - same with most starches. The more I eat them daily, it's a build up effect until, WHAM! Endotoxin.

This cumulative effect can be avoided IMO by only eating one starch daily. So if you tolerate white rice, white flour and potatoes: eat white rice as your only starch one day with all your normal food, then the next eat potatoes as your only starch that day with your normal food, and so on. Never eating the same starch 2 days in a row. I have seen this prevent the cumulative build up you speak of.

That being said, I seem to tolerate simple highly refined white bread very well - the closer to wonder bread the better. Go figure.

Then why try and make your own sourdough and long rise yeast breads? Just eat refined plain ole' white bread.