Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

[tyw]

Interesting post but my personal experience was the exact opposite if this. When I ate a zero fat diet with only a Tiny amount of of CO, I got sever endotoxin shock reactions. Now that I eat zero fiber, zero starch and a lot of saturated fat I get zero endotoxin symptoms, it's like night and day.

The biggest thing I think is how much endotoxin is in the gut in the first place. Carbs will almost certainly contribute more to feeding bacteria and producing way more endotoxin, also it will create fermentaton which will cause the digestive tract to expand and become more leaky. Lastly, what about the saturated fat that is produced in the large intestine? Could this cause the same reaction as dietary saturated fat?

Yes, your experience is consistent with all the mechanisms I stated :) . Fat can only transport existing endotoxin in the small intestine to the rest of the body. If there is no endotoxin to begin with, then there is nothing to transport.

Now we need to qualify what your "zero fat diet" meant. The mechanisms of:
- chylomicrons transporting endotoxin from the small intestine to the rest of the body
- production of endotoxin by bacteria in the small intestine.

Are completely separate from each other.

This is why I said many times that "zero fat" doesn't mean anything for endotoxin risk. A "zero fat" diet with fermentable materials like pectin or FODMAPS is still a breeding ground for bacteria which can produce endotoxin.

The control experiment would be zero fat, zero fermentable carbohydrate. This is not an easy practical experiment to run, and involves a decent amount of food control. (Sidenote: that said, my regular diet is basically zero fermentable carbohydrates , and very low fat)

Even then, the definition of a "fermentable carbohydrate" can be murky. For me, pure amylopectin basically just gets absorbed very quickly -- I lose the feeling of fullness very quickly, blood sugar spikes very quickly, and recovers to baseline very quickly ("very quickly" meaning like 2-3 hours for even a 2,000kcal meal). All indications of gut health seem to indicate that this is not going to give bacteria the opportunity for fermentation.

High Amylose on the other hand, gives me issues with bloating. No basmati rice please! (Just search "tyw rice" for my previous posts elaborating on these topics in detail)

All you can do with these mechanics, is to understand them, and then think about future experiments.


And lastly (and IMPORTANTLY ) do note that the small intestine is a very high turnover system -- border cells which only last for a few days. This makes the response to a particular molecule very different as "conditions of existence" change. For someone with a history of gut issues, constant monitoring and constant tweaking is required, and the assumption that "what works today will work tomorrow" is not valid.

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This chylomicron-mediated endotoxin transport mechanism does not come into play at all in the large intestine. There, we have to look at other factors, like butyrate production by bacteria (which is likely beneficial as far as I can tell).

Large intestine bacterial populations are something which needs to be discussed in a separate thread, with research and mechanics specific to that.

.....

 

[redred]

Very good blogpostt tyw

Ancient Civilisations Considered Advanced-AF. Modern Day Health Implications

Watching this video atm

 

[ecstatichamster]

Very good thread. Ive always wondered why bread (imagine a fresh crusty baguette) tastes so good but are harmful to us.

Interesting that you also bring up the coming solar minimum.

I don't think white bread is harmful for some of us. I don't notice a problem with it.

 

[Makrosky]

@Amazoniac and @Agent207



I personally don't think this is true at all. The many downsides of Oleic Acid have been discussed on this forum, ranging from oxidisability, to effects on insulin, and all the way down to mitochondrial mechanics.

I think Olive Oil has a decent ammount of Vitamin E which prevents oxidisation of the oil ???

 

[Amazoniac]

Those are great considerations, @tyw
From what I understood, you're mocking because people that address those problems with a low-fat diet are not targeting the root problems, which are deranged metabolism and dangerous interactions with bacteria (gram negative, too much, wrong place, etc).
From my perspective it's just as valid as your approach of limiting fermentable substrate, because all in all on both cases you're reducing the insults so you can improve metabolism. You can argue that by limiting fermentable carbs you limit the amount of endotoxin produced; however, you're still not addressing the main cause of the problem.
So, what would you suggest instead?

 

[Jayfish]

@Jayfish what were the symptoms?

I think I mentioned this in your other thread already but typical shock symptoms. Overwhelming feeling of panic, fast heart rate, shortness of breath, almost hypothermia feeling if extremities, need to deficate. Basically I feel like I'm close to death.

 

[Jayfish]

Very good thread. Ive always wondered why bread (imagine a fresh crusty baguette) tastes so good but are harmful to us.

Interesting that you also bring up the coming solar minimum.

Interestingly enough, bread is the only carb I can eat that does not trigger endotoxin. White rice and potatoes especially are very bad for me.

 

[Jayfish]

@tyw, thanks for the great response, that clears things up a bit.

May I ask what your current diet is like? My original diet plan after getting off fermentable fiber was to do low fat, high sugar but found it very unfulfilling. Adding saturated fat allowed a much greater range of food combinations. The thoughts of Edward Edmunds helped with that.

 

[Parsifal]

Well, we need to ask what "EMF damage" means in the first place

Broadly speaking, there are only 2 ways that EMF can cause damage:

(1) By interfering with natural resonant mechanisms used in signalling.

This is why ELF-EMFs that are below 1,000 Hz are very harmful. This is the shared resonance of many compounds (like Ca2+) that we use in biology, and ELF-EMF emitters like Power Lines push out 50-60Hz frequencies that are in the Earth's Natural Schumann band.

We are talking about fundamental disruptions to the way that molecules send energy to each other, and ELF-EMFs disrupt that.

PUFA incorporation into cell membranes "help" in the sense that they make cells less sensitive to all stimuli -- Free, long-chain, polyunsaturated fatty acids reduce membrane electrical excitability in neonatal rat cardiac myocytes.

This is why I say PUFAs "shut down the entire system". You may not be as sensitive to ELF-EMF damage, but you also won't be sensitive to anything else that your body outputs (Thyroid hormones, all sex steroids, etc ...).

PUFAs shut down EVERYTHING, and no longer allow for robustness of the organism. "Robustness" here means to able to respond to potentially stressful stimuli, and adapt to become better at responding to that stimuli.

ie: PUFAs will help you maintain the status quo, if and only if you do not provide additional stressors to the system. "Hibernation mode" must be attained if going the high PUFA route, else the organism will slowly break under the inability to adapt to new incoming stressors.


(2) By brute-force energetic insult to the cell

This is literally a full on high-energy impact to the cell, and will be achieved by EMFs that are above around 100,000 Hz (100 kHz) in frequency. Note that cell towers, WiFi modems, etc ... all output at least 2 Ghz (2,000,000 Hz) frequencies. X-rays and Gamma ray are obviously harmful, and they differ from Cell Tower Radiation only in terms of their per-photon energy.

Sidenote: I have written how the 20 kHz to 100 kHz range does not seem to be harmful -- Kilohertz Range EMF is Likely Less Harmful . This likely indicates that individual photons in this range are not enough to cause stress to biological tissues.​

PUFAs will not help you here at all, and will probably make your condition worse. The cell is being stressed hard by large absolute quantities of energy.

The only way out is to:

(a) Try and avoid these stressors as much as possible -- this is an energetic assault, and getting away from the energy is an easy solution. eg: 3m away from my WiFi router, and the energy goes <0.5 mW/cm^2

(b) Keep your cells fully functional and adaptive -- ie: cut the PUFAs , keep mitochondrial energetics good, allow novel solutions to the incoming stressors





Yup. Transient improvements , long-term loss of resiliency , and having to maintain an ever-stricter lifestyle.


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One of the best posts I've read on this forum. Thank you very much Yew .

Have you studied a bit glycation and cooking food?

 

[Ewelina]

You are a breath of fresh air on the forum, @tyw! Your explanations make a lot of sense. I can always learn something interesting from you.

 

[lindsay]

I just adore your threads - not only are they brilliant finds, but you provide incredibly well thought through responses! Thank you!

I would love to see some studies related to lower intestine and endotoxin. I'm in the same camp as Jayfish - when I tried to eat high starch/carb and low fat, it was HORRIBLE. I ended up getting appendicitis. Whether or not that was caused by my diet is debatable, but it just means that it didn't help the situation.

When I finished my round of antibiotics after having an appendectomy, I decided to let my body eat what it craved and see where that led - the result was high fat dairy, eggs and lots of cheese. Those have been staples for me since. And I keep my fiber intake fairly low, though need a little to sweep things out. Usually raw carrot and an orange daily. I find I do worse when I eat more sugar and I'm not sure why.

So I'm curious - if the small intestine is clearing things out well and loaded with endotoxin - what might explain endotoxin issues in the large intestine? Even if there are regular bowel movements?

And I am curious, if you have a low fat diet with zero fermentable carbs, what is your protein intake like @tyw? I've thought about changing up my diet and giving low fat a try again, but I would have a really difficult time getting nutrient dense proteins (like eggs, dairy - loss of vitamins in low fat versions, beef, etc.)

 

[lindsay]

Additionally, I'm curious about your thoughts on these studies? I was looking something about endotoxin up on PubMed and these popped up. Thanks!!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7790821

Chylomicrons alter the fate of endotoxin, decreasing tumor necrosis factor release and preventing death. - PubMed - NCBI

Chylomicrons enhance endotoxin excretion in bile. - PubMed - NCBI

These studies are a bit vague in their description of "triglycerides", but my initial limited understanding was that this was referring to cholesterol rich proteins - maybe such as eggs..... But I could be totally off on this.

 

[schultz]

This may be relevant:

Orange juice neutralizes the proinflammatory effect of a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal and prevents endotoxin increase and Toll-like receptor ex... - PubMed - NCBI

It appears that orange juice can mitigate the rise in plasma endotoxin that comes with a HF meal.

"We also showed that, after the intake of glucose or water with the meal, there was a significant increase in plasma endotoxin concentrations, whereas the intake of the meal with orange juice prevented this increase."

Of interest to people here is that pure glucose didn't prevent the increase but orange juice did.

"The data presented in this article emphasize that the intake of glucose and a HFHC meal are profoundly and rapidly proinflammatory, that this process occurs at the cellular and molecular level, that specific proinflammatory genes are activated after the intake of glucose and a HFHC meal, and that these changes are observed in MNCs that participate in vascular inflammation."

"The combination of glucose or water and the HFHC meal induced oxidative and inflammatory stress and an increase in TLR expression and plasma endotoxin concentrations. In contrast, orange juice intake with the HFHC meal prevented meal-induced oxidative and inflammatory stress, including the increase in endotoxin and TLR expression."

 

[thegiantess]

Interestingly enough, bread is the only carb I can eat that does not trigger endotoxin. White rice and potatoes especially are very bad for me.

Yah I don't think bread is a problem for everyone either. Are you suggesting that gluten causes a leaky gut in all people @tyw ?

 

[Atalanta]

I just adore your threads - not only are they brilliant finds, but you provide incredibly well thought through responses! Thank you!

I would love to see some studies related to lower intestine and endotoxin. I'm in the same camp as Jayfish - when I tried to eat high starch/carb and low fat, it was HORRIBLE. I ended up getting appendicitis. Whether or not that was caused by my diet is debatable, but it just means that it didn't help the situation.

When I finished my round of antibiotics after having an appendectomy, I decided to let my body eat what it craved and see where that led - the result was high fat dairy, eggs and lots of cheese. Those have been staples for me since. And I keep my fiber intake fairly low, though need a little to sweep things out. Usually raw carrot and an orange daily. I find I do worse when I eat more sugar and I'm not sure why.

So I'm curious - if the small intestine is clearing things out well and loaded with endotoxin - what might explain endotoxin issues in the large intestine? Even if there are regular bowel movements?

And I am curious, if you have a low fat diet with zero fermentable carbs, what is your protein intake like @tyw? I've thought about changing up my diet and giving low fat a try again, but I would have a really difficult time getting nutrient dense proteins (like eggs, dairy - loss of vitamins in low fat versions, beef, etc.)

How many calories do you ingest daily and what is the macro-nutrient breakdown?

Are you essentially eating a paleo-style, high fat diet based on eggs and cheese?

 

[Jayfish]

Yah I don't think bread is a problem for everyone either. Are you suggesting that gluten causes a leaky gut in all people @tyw ?

Personally I never suspected gluten to cause leaky gut, just that in a person with leaky gut, gluten will cause issues once through the intestinal wall. I could be wrong but gluten has been around for 10,000 years and leaky gut/gluten issues have only really been a problem in the last 50, suggesting that something else was the catalyst (industrial oils, enriched flour).

 

[lindsay]

How many calories do you ingest daily and what is the macro-nutrient breakdown?

Are you essentially eating a paleo-style, high fat diet based on eggs and cheese?

I don't really count calories daily, but I am guessing somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 depending on the day. And I don't eat low carb. I eat sugar to cravings and sometimes in excess of cravings (which is when I start to put on weight - this is problematic for me). Normally, if I follow my gut instinct with carbs, I eat predominantly fruit based carbs - lots of OJ and some fruit - and sugar in my coffee. Also, I'm a candy lover.

The problem for me with a high sugar, high carb and fruit based diet is, A) Most fruits cause me issues unless cooked; oranges are fine and sometimes grapes, B) I can't eat starch in anything more than very small quantities, C) I wouldn't get enough nutrient dense foods & proteins. Remove fat from dairy and say goodbye to vitamins A & K. Don't eat beef and say goodbye to a plethora of nutrients. Same with eggs & cheese. If nutrients are important, I don't see how low fat is an option. But I guess that's why people like supplements.

 

[Jayfish]

@lindsay I have very similar reactions as you. Almost all fruit causes pretty significant intestinal upset, I'm guessing because it is never fully tree ripened. Orange juice is the one exception and really the only form of fruit I get now except for the odd ripe nectarine or mango. Starch, in any amount causes the same issues except weirdly enough for white breads.

I also tried the very low fat, no starch diet but found it to be incredibly hard to get enough vitamins, minerals and especially protein. When I upped my protein significantly from meats, cheeses and eggs, I felt way better. Now my diet is based around meat, dairy and eggs and I eat sugar and some bread to taste, instead of the other way around and I find this to be optimal for me.

 

[Wilfrid]

@tyw,

A huge merci beaucoup for all of your insightful posts.

 

[thegiantess]

Personally I never suspected gluten to cause leaky gut, just that in a person with leaky gut, gluten will cause issues once through the intestinal wall. I could be wrong but gluten has been around for 10,000 years and leaky gut/gluten issues have only really been a problem in the last 50, suggesting that something else was the catalyst (industrial oils, enriched flour).

Oh I agree with you completely. He seems to imply in his original post that gluten is a main culprit so just wanted to clarification.