LUH 3417

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I know all about toxic relationships, I was in one for almost 4 years. Extremely toxic and dysfunctional, more than I could ever express. It was insane. Both of us were victims of childhood abuse and neglect, and part of why I got into it and was able to stay is that I'm no stranger to mental illness. I have been absolutely f***ing nuts before, so in a sense, crazy to me is normal. I have an extremely high threshold for weird and abusive behavior because it's what I grew up with and lived with in my own mind for so long.

Healthy relationships start within ourselves. Frame is everything. Knowing who you are and what's acceptable to you and what isn't acceptable, how to assert yourself unapologetically. Our relationship with ourselves should be our basis for all of our other relationships. It's a dense concept to process but yields a lot of insight.
I agree with you on every count. I do think children who have been neglected or abused may need to experience a toxic relationship to figure out who they are and what’s acceptable.

I spent a lot of time alone and it let me live in my own little fantasy world. It wasn’t until I started dating that I could have the opportunity to assert myself and say this works for me or this doesn’t. Isolating myself did not grant that opportunity and I somewhat regret the time I spent alone trying to develop myself. For me, it was futile because I did not know how to even begin the project of self development nor did I have any of the tools or resources necessary to do so. It was only once I started dating that I started to see real change in my life. I think we need people to grow. If we can be forward thinking and avoid catastrophe, of course that is preferable to extreme emotional pain and suffering, but I think even being in a toxic relationship is better than being alone.
 

Dobbler

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Why you guys stay with such toxic persons if it makes you miserable?? I understand if it's your parents , then it's maybe wise to keep decent relationship up and not cut contact completely but if it's not your family, why bother?? ..
 

Cirion

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Why you guys stay with such toxic persons if it makes you miserable?? I understand if it's your parents , then it's maybe wise to keep decent relationship up and not cut contact completely but if it's not your family, why bother?? ..

One word. Serotonin. Serotonin is one helluva drug. It really messes with your brain in bad ways. It makes you stupid, complacent, lazy, non-assertive. Why do you think the governments' goal is to make everyone serotonin dominant? A serotonin dominant society is a compliant and submissive society. Also in a brand new relationship you have to deal with high amounts of Oxytocin as well. Like I say, for me ignorance was a strong factor also. I think almost everyone makes a mistake on their first relationship. Or at least that's what I tell myself in order to make myself feel better about it LOL
 

LUH 3417

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Oct 22, 2016
Messages
2,990
Why you guys stay with such toxic persons if it makes you miserable?? I understand if it's your parents , then it's maybe wise to keep decent relationship up and not cut contact completely but if it's not your family, why bother?? ..
People are often blinded when “falling in love” and only see a partners good qualities. I think you should absolutely leave a relationship if your partner is making you sick, harming you, or threatening to harm you in any way.
What I meant in my previous post is that sometimes, people who grew up in dysfunctional families may need to go through a toxic relationship to even be able to begin to assert themselves and discern what they need from what they don’t need. Typically the family dynamic never provided the platform for the neglected person to assert their needs. What happens sometimes is these people may become so socially isolated that no other group or outlet will be able to satisfy such need.

If you are never really experiencing intimacy any where in life, if you avoid your family and your friends because of the anxiety that comes with dealing with them, if you don’t bother pursuing a romantic relationship because you feel so bad about yourself, how could you ever begin to heal from the childhood mess?

I am speaking from personal experience and my own beliefs. I am not saying this is what people should do but I am saying this is what I did.

People who grow up in dysfunctional families can easily repeat the dysfunction by remaining submissive in workplaces, where submission is actually desired and no one will point out how passive you are being. In a romantic relationship, however, it is more likely for intimacy to cause emotions to come up that will make your passivity quite obvious, and this can be a place to grow from if that is what one is seeking.
 

Jib

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Mar 20, 2013
Messages
591
Why you guys stay with such toxic persons if it makes you miserable?? I understand if it's your parents , then it's maybe wise to keep decent relationship up and not cut contact completely but if it's not your family, why bother?? ..

When you're more miserable alone than in the toxic relationship, leaving seems like a worse option. And the pair-bonding. Maybe for me it was particularly strong because it was my first girlfriend and I was 26 years old. Going my whole life without a relationship up to that point had been torture, and being in that relationship was meeting so many needs I needed to be met, that despite it being toxic, I stayed.

It also wasn't 100% toxic. I did better in my business than I ever had in my life throughout the duration of the relationship, and also got consistently better (and regular) sleep. Most people wouldn't be able to handle all the arguing and stress and emotional drama, but to me, it was a welcome change compared to the absolute hell of complete emotional/sexual/intellectual isolation. Having someone I was really close to that had also been through childhood abuse was really healing for me in a lot of ways. And honestly I feel like I came out of the relationship a better and more developed person despite it being "toxic."

"Toxic" is a tough word because it was mutually created. Many times in anger I did call her crazy, and toxic, and manipulative, etc., but regardless of what's true, I still chose to stay with her, and I always meant it when I said I loved her. I still do. I can take a breather now that we've been broken up, but I still love her and want her to be happy, and it still hurts me to know she's still struggling with things.

I haven't taken the steps pinacolada has with dating; I don't know Cirion's current state of affairs but that was my only girlfriend, and I feel like I'm back to square one now that I'm alone again.

I would love to be in another relationship, even just a sexual one, like a friends with benefits scenario that may or may not turn into something more. But I am so screwed up it feels like it's impossible. People on the outside see a young, fairly attractive guy, but on the inside I have extreme social anxiety, panic disorder, get stuck in my head and despite being in an almost 4 year long term relationship, I don't feel any more comfortable or competent starting a relationship of any kind.

That's another reason I stayed. Having gone so long being alone, I thought it might have been my only chance to experience a relationship, and now I'm afraid I was right. When you go that long without dating a single person ever, and not even having casual sexual encounters at all, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think you might go the rest of your life without it.

It's been maybe 8 months since we broke up and I haven't so much as interacted with another girl since then. I have no ability to, and will have to figure out a way to get over my agoraphobia and go out into the world and get some phone numbers if I want that to happen, which honestly feels impossible for me.

For people like me, any "toxicity" in a relationship is easy to tolerate when you genuinely feel like you have no other options, and you also have never experienced anything "non-toxic," so you don't know the difference. The pair bonding effect, at least for me, was so overwhelmingly powerful it was insane. Never in my entire life have I felt like anyone cared about me like she did, despite all the toxicity. My childhood had all the toxicity and virtually none of the personal attention/affection that I was getting in the relationship, so by comparison, it was pretty much the best thing I'd ever experienced in my life by a long shot.

Absolutely for more normal, healthy people who have at least a somewhat normal sex life/dating life/relationship history, a toxic relationship would not be worth it. Most people might see the red flags and get out of there as soon as possible.

But when it's the best thing you've ever had -- which is unfortunately the case for some souls -- leaving never looks like an appealing option. I tried breaking up with her multiple times, but I would never stick to my guns, and eventually I just gave up and let the relationship die, and let her end it, just telling me she "couldn't do it anymore." I had become very distant from her just because I was so exhausted I had nothing left to give. For me, it was the only way the relationship was going to end, and that's how it ended.

I did grow a lot. And experiencing sex on a regular basis, not to mention having actual intercourse for the first time, was very important for me. As far as masculinity goes and my identity with that, it was very healing for me, as she was always extremely complimentary about how great sex was with me. It was a super condensed relationship and I felt like I had so many needs met that were never met all the years before.

I used to be extremely sexually frustrated, and while I still feel that way, it isn't the same now that I've had sex hundreds of times, and understand what it feels like. Honestly I think this does change a person, and is a necessary part of development. Never having sex had severely stunted my development and after almost four years of having sex on a regular basis, it changed me for the better. I got to know what it felt like to be human, to be "normal," to just have sex/love/connection as a regular part of my life, and then I could focus on other things like my business a LOT more without any added effort. Just lifting the burden of being lonely and frustrated all the time is all it took for me to, at least for that time period, skyrocket my business.

People like me are not stupid, though it can seem so, as it did to my friends who couldn't understand why I was staying. We can see and understand that a relationship is toxic, and how much it's stressing us out, and how damaging it may be. It's just that our personal experience is that whatever hell we experience in such relationships is not as bad or painful as the hell that we were in before it -- so we stay.

It's a sad state of affairs and all I can do is hope that people like me will not be stuck like this forever. All I know is that whatever happens.....parents should not abuse their children. As hopeful as I am, I'm finding it very hard to believe that severe child abuse does not result in permanent damage. A pickle can't go back to being a cucumber.

I'm thankful at least that I was able to experience love/support at least for one period in my life, even if it was toxic, it's something I needed. So even if I never experience it again, at least I can say I know what it's like. And for me that feels like a huge weight lifted off of me, and a milestone for me that can never be taken away. I lived it, so even if I never live it again, I have those memories and experiences and they did change me forever. And I think for the better.

Being out of the relationship has been a relief at least in some ways, I will admit.
 

Jib

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Messages
591
Keeping this on topic: https://www.clinicaladvisor.com/hom...der-the-effects-of-child-abuse-and-neglect/3/

I'm not sure how neurotransmitters might come into play with all this. The brain changes from abuse are complex. Learned helplessness does seem like a major player, which Peat has talked about, and can potentially be mitigated with things like pregnenolone, DHEA, avoiding PUFA, maybe even aspirin. Dietary changes can probably make a tremendous difference, as we all know. Personally I think my fat intake might be too high on a regular basis, and I'd like to try a slightly lower fat diet with higher carbs, which allegedly increases oxidative metabolism.

I just struggle with feeling like garbage if my fat intake goes too low.

Also: I wonder how being on an SSRI for years from the time I was 12 years old affects serotonin pathways into adulthood? Is it possible there are lingering effects? I feel like the drugs I was on (Lexapro and Zyprexa) may have been as damaging as the abuse I went through itself. Not sure about the long-term effects of these drugs on the developing brain.

I will say, the constant violent fantasies I had, and the self-mutilation, did not start until after I was on Lexapro for a while in my early adolescence. Self-mutilation wasn't a "thing" back then, and I knew of no one that did it, or that it was a "thing." So that even convinces me MORE that antidepressants can cause aberrant behavior like that. It's crazy.

However, being more healed myself (at times), as a result of being off all medications and having been more or less avoiding all PUFA, exercising, and eating pretty Peaty, many times I was able to calm my ex girlfriend down when she was having a panic attack or otherwise freaking out. To me it was very clear I was in a much more stable, energetically sound state (at times), while she was an alcoholic and probably had massively elevated serotonin and other inflammatory markers, she was in constant pain she attributed to fibromyalgia, etc. Constantly elevated stress hormones for sure, very sensitive to pain and in pain on a constant basis, etc.

I had my issues for sure, and could be just as or more abusive than she was at times, but I definitely had the ability to see her absolutely freaking out and having a meltdown, and not be affected by it, and comfort her, which worked 100% of the time and would always turn her mood around and calm her down and bring her back to feeling grounded and stable, at least for a time. I would just hold her and talk her down, tell her she was just having a panic attack and it was going to pass, take a deep breath in and hold it, let it out, etc. and I would do that until it subsided.

When I've had chronic pain, aspirin does the trick every time. It isn't a major issue for me but once in a blue moon I'll have muscle/joint pain that will be so bad it will keep me up at night, and aspirin knocks it out every time so I can sleep.

But yes: how effectively our metabolism is working affects everything, and elevated serotonin, I suspect, can have a lot to do with "toxic" relationships as well as criminal behavior. Combine emotional trauma with body tissues saturated with PUFA, and you have a recipe that goes like this:

-Emotional trigger > Emotional response > Inflammation amplified by PUFA > yelling/screaming/arguing/extremely elevated adrenaline/stress hormones

Arguing is "normal," to an extent. Most couples argue at least somewhat frequently. But the difference is they're not very serious, and are short lived in healthy relationships. A quick back and forth disagreement about something, then resolution. It doesn't mean healthy people never get angry ever or argue ever. It's a matter of intensity, and how quickly there's a resolution.

Toxic relationships are most likely just amplified normal relationships, with exaggerated arguments, delayed resolutions (if there ever are any), and both sides having way more serotonin/cortisol/inflammatory markers than healthy people, which prolong the misery. PUFAs amplifying and prolonging the stress response is surely a part of this.
 

Cirion

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Sep 1, 2017
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St. Louis, Missouri
Hey man... Your experience was very similar to mine so I feel like I can give you a lot of hope. I didn't have my first gf until age 30, so you have me beat by 4 years! However, I don't fear or doubt finding another relationship and I'm not lonely anymore. Why? Because loneliness is just a symptom of low metabolism. I am on the cusp of a major breakthrough with metabolism (Planning to write a book). I am not really lonely anymore. Would another relationship be nice? Sure. And I'll probably pursue one once I'm healed. But it doesn't define me. Shyness, feeling pathetic or desperation, any negative thoughts - that's purely because of a bad metabolism. I know from experience. I've lived a low metabolism life for most of my life. But I also know what a high functioning metabolism feels like, and its awesome. So cheer up. Pursue your own dreams, fix your metabolism, and trust me, everything will work out in the end. I also was very sexually frustrated and now? After experiencing it? I'm not. Because I know how over-rated it is... at least with the wrong person. I also learned a lot in my relationship, and don't ultimately regret it. I also grew a lot from it. I know now what I want in a relationship and will sooner be single than settle. Your most important relationship in your life is with yourself. Always give yourself what you want, pursue what you want, tell yourself what you need to hear. Never let anyone prevent you from doing what you want, not even a significant other. That may sound authoritative from the standpoint of your significant other, but a S/O that truly loves you will respect things like career choice, how you want to spend your money and so on. I'm done with girls who think you need to spend money on them to make them feel loved. A S/O is important, but should still come second to YOU. Besides, girls never like a pushover, you will probably make girls want you even more by being a little selfish (there's a reason why girls like the bad boys). "Nice Guys" are boring, unmasculine, pushovers who have no idea what they want in life and let people (girls) walk all over them. Take the redpill and don't look back. A relationship should generally only be pursued in the context of PLENTY (your pick of girls). It is precisely a "scarcity" mindset that causes guys to chase a single girl because of lack of choice, and frequently results in a toxic relationship. It's ok if you don't have an abundance (I don't yet) just make sure you avoid serious dating until you do (Something I plan to do once I'm healthy). And BTW the sex appeal of men typically peaks in late 30s-early 40s, from what I hear, as long as you're focusing on self improvement the whole time. So you hardly have missed your chance at age 26.
 
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LUH 3417

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Joined
Oct 22, 2016
Messages
2,990
When you're more miserable alone than in the toxic relationship, leaving seems like a worse option. And the pair-bonding. Maybe for me it was particularly strong because it was my first girlfriend and I was 26 years old. Going my whole life without a relationship up to that point had been torture, and being in that relationship was meeting so many needs I needed to be met, that despite it being toxic, I stayed.

It also wasn't 100% toxic. I did better in my business than I ever had in my life throughout the duration of the relationship, and also got consistently better (and regular) sleep. Most people wouldn't be able to handle all the arguing and stress and emotional drama, but to me, it was a welcome change compared to the absolute hell of complete emotional/sexual/intellectual isolation. Having someone I was really close to that had also been through childhood abuse was really healing for me in a lot of ways. And honestly I feel like I came out of the relationship a better and more developed person despite it being "toxic."

"Toxic" is a tough word because it was mutually created. Many times in anger I did call her crazy, and toxic, and manipulative, etc., but regardless of what's true, I still chose to stay with her, and I always meant it when I said I loved her. I still do. I can take a breather now that we've been broken up, but I still love her and want her to be happy, and it still hurts me to know she's still struggling with things.

I haven't taken the steps pinacolada has with dating; I don't know Cirion's current state of affairs but that was my only girlfriend, and I feel like I'm back to square one now that I'm alone again.

I would love to be in another relationship, even just a sexual one, like a friends with benefits scenario that may or may not turn into something more. But I am so screwed up it feels like it's impossible. People on the outside see a young, fairly attractive guy, but on the inside I have extreme social anxiety, panic disorder, get stuck in my head and despite being in an almost 4 year long term relationship, I don't feel any more comfortable or competent starting a relationship of any kind.

That's another reason I stayed. Having gone so long being alone, I thought it might have been my only chance to experience a relationship, and now I'm afraid I was right. When you go that long without dating a single person ever, and not even having casual sexual encounters at all, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think you might go the rest of your life without it.

It's been maybe 8 months since we broke up and I haven't so much as interacted with another girl since then. I have no ability to, and will have to figure out a way to get over my agoraphobia and go out into the world and get some phone numbers if I want that to happen, which honestly feels impossible for me.

For people like me, any "toxicity" in a relationship is easy to tolerate when you genuinely feel like you have no other options, and you also have never experienced anything "non-toxic," so you don't know the difference. The pair bonding effect, at least for me, was so overwhelmingly powerful it was insane. Never in my entire life have I felt like anyone cared about me like she did, despite all the toxicity. My childhood had all the toxicity and virtually none of the personal attention/affection that I was getting in the relationship, so by comparison, it was pretty much the best thing I'd ever experienced in my life by a long shot.

Absolutely for more normal, healthy people who have at least a somewhat normal sex life/dating life/relationship history, a toxic relationship would not be worth it. Most people might see the red flags and get out of there as soon as possible.

But when it's the best thing you've ever had -- which is unfortunately the case for some souls -- leaving never looks like an appealing option. I tried breaking up with her multiple times, but I would never stick to my guns, and eventually I just gave up and let the relationship die, and let her end it, just telling me she "couldn't do it anymore." I had become very distant from her just because I was so exhausted I had nothing left to give. For me, it was the only way the relationship was going to end, and that's how it ended.

I did grow a lot. And experiencing sex on a regular basis, not to mention having actual intercourse for the first time, was very important for me. As far as masculinity goes and my identity with that, it was very healing for me, as she was always extremely complimentary about how great sex was with me. It was a super condensed relationship and I felt like I had so many needs met that were never met all the years before.

I used to be extremely sexually frustrated, and while I still feel that way, it isn't the same now that I've had sex hundreds of times, and understand what it feels like. Honestly I think this does change a person, and is a necessary part of development. Never having sex had severely stunted my development and after almost four years of having sex on a regular basis, it changed me for the better. I got to know what it felt like to be human, to be "normal," to just have sex/love/connection as a regular part of my life, and then I could focus on other things like my business a LOT more without any added effort. Just lifting the burden of being lonely and frustrated all the time is all it took for me to, at least for that time period, skyrocket my business.

People like me are not stupid, though it can seem so, as it did to my friends who couldn't understand why I was staying. We can see and understand that a relationship is toxic, and how much it's stressing us out, and how damaging it may be. It's just that our personal experience is that whatever hell we experience in such relationships is not as bad or painful as the hell that we were in before it -- so we stay.

It's a sad state of affairs and all I can do is hope that people like me will not be stuck like this forever. All I know is that whatever happens.....parents should not abuse their children. As hopeful as I am, I'm finding it very hard to believe that severe child abuse does not result in permanent damage. A pickle can't go back to being a cucumber.

I'm thankful at least that I was able to experience love/support at least for one period in my life, even if it was toxic, it's something I needed. So even if I never experience it again, at least I can say I know what it's like. And for me that feels like a huge weight lifted off of me, and a milestone for me that can never be taken away. I lived it, so even if I never live it again, I have those memories and experiences and they did change me forever. And I think for the better.

Being out of the relationship has been a relief at least in some ways, I will admit.
Maybe a pickle can never go back to being a cucumber but pickles do have a more complex flavor profile and can survive and thrive for much longer in the right medium than a cucumber ever could after being picked.
 

Jib

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
591
Thanks guys! Great info Cirion. I'm 30 now, and I've been getting progressively anxious realizing I need to do something to get my sh** together. I'm not getting any younger, and if I keep going the way I'm going, I'm not gonna have much to show for it by my mid to late 30's. I have a skill set but because of the social anxiety, no marketing or advertising.

I feel like having a stable income doing work that I'm proud of would help me out a lot. As it stands I just have jobs (repair/restoration work) coming in sporadically, sometimes nothing for long periods of time, when I know I have the skill set and ability to be doing a LOT more.

My self-esteem always gets a huge boost from doing a good job, and seeing how happy the customers are: sense of community and sense of purpose.

I'm a believer in the "fake it till you make it" concept. When you don't have abundance, and aren't used to being seen by other people as high value, I believe you have to just pretend that you are high value, and start thinking that you are. One bit of advice I'm trying to take IRL is getting used to presenting yourself to other people as high value. Talk good about yourself, not in a gloating way, but in a way that implies high value. Stories that show leadership qualities, competence, all without sounding arrogant or try-hard.

One positive of the relationship is I can at least talk about it now, which gives me some pre-selection: someone was in fact sexually attracted to me before, enough for them to want me to be their boyfriend. I had doubts if anyone would ever be attracted to me, but she was, and I should be thinking more about that than all the depressing stuff. Having stories about my past relationship has also been helpful, but I want to be careful about what stories I tell. I think I should actually flip the script and only talk about the positives in the relationship. I have to consider what is going through other people's minds during story-sharing: what is it saying about me? Am I coming off as someone who's laid back and confident and fun to be around, and a leader? Or am I coming off as someone unhappy, insecure, tormented, aimless, incompetent, lonely, etc.?

I usually never think about these things, so my goal lately is to think about them more. And be more selective with how I present myself, and be aware that whenever I am talking, I am presenting myself whether I like it or not. Better to present myself in a way that benefits me instead of shooting myself in the foot.

And also, conversely, being a good listener, and so providing value to people you're talking to. Like you guys are doing now :) Funnily enough this is all stuff that I think comes more naturally with a high metabolic rate and low levels of stress hormones.

@ pinacolada

I really like that touche (too-shay...Idk how to do the little apostrophe thing) about the cucumber and pickle. Never thought of it like that. It is also the first time anyone's said I have a complex flavor profile, so thank you for that! Haha.

Salty, sour brine: my natural environment. Haha. I'm not sure what that means, but I like it!
 

Momado965

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
1,003
Thanks guys! Great info Cirion. I'm 30 now, and I've been getting progressively anxious realizing I need to do something to get my sh** together. I'm not getting any younger, and if I keep going the way I'm going, I'm not gonna have much to show for it by my mid to late 30's. I have a skill set but because of the social anxiety, no marketing or advertising.

I feel like having a stable income doing work that I'm proud of would help me out a lot. As it stands I just have jobs (repair/restoration work) coming in sporadically, sometimes nothing for long periods of time, when I know I have the skill set and ability to be doing a LOT more.

My self-esteem always gets a huge boost from doing a good job, and seeing how happy the customers are: sense of community and sense of purpose.

I'm a believer in the "fake it till you make it" concept. When you don't have abundance, and aren't used to being seen by other people as high value, I believe you have to just pretend that you are high value, and start thinking that you are. One bit of advice I'm trying to take IRL is getting used to presenting yourself to other people as high value. Talk good about yourself, not in a gloating way, but in a way that implies high value. Stories that show leadership qualities, competence, all without sounding arrogant or try-hard.

One positive of the relationship is I can at least talk about it now, which gives me some pre-selection: someone was in fact sexually attracted to me before, enough for them to want me to be their boyfriend. I had doubts if anyone would ever be attracted to me, but she was, and I should be thinking more about that than all the depressing stuff. Having stories about my past relationship has also been helpful, but I want to be careful about what stories I tell. I think I should actually flip the script and only talk about the positives in the relationship. I have to consider what is going through other people's minds during story-sharing: what is it saying about me? Am I coming off as someone who's laid back and confident and fun to be around, and a leader? Or am I coming off as someone unhappy, insecure, tormented, aimless, incompetent, lonely, etc.?

I usually never think about these things, so my goal lately is to think about them more. And be more selective with how I present myself, and be aware that whenever I am talking, I am presenting myself whether I like it or not. Better to present myself in a way that benefits me instead of shooting myself in the foot.

And also, conversely, being a good listener, and so providing value to people you're talking to. Like you guys are doing now :) Funnily enough this is all stuff that I think comes more naturally with a high metabolic rate and low levels of stress hormones.

@ pinacolada

I really like that touche (too-shay...Idk how to do the little apostrophe thing) about the cucumber and pickle. Never thought of it like that. It is also the first time anyone's said I have a complex flavor profile, so thank you for that! Haha.

Salty, sour brine: my natural environment. Haha. I'm not sure what that means, but I like it!

Im interested how you project preselection.
 

Jib

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
591
Im interested how you project preselection.

I literally just mean telling stories about experiences you've had with other people, such as a girlfriend. Not in a gloating way.

I was so bad that I literally used to just tell everyone that I'd never had sex, and would practically go out of my way to tell people I was awkward and uncomfortable. This is the opposite of "pre-selection." I would tell people outright that no one had wanted to be with me and I was just getting rejected all the time and I didn't understand why no one liked me. Obviously that didn't go over very well as far as making me attractive to other people.

I just did not know any better. But the reality is we're always communicating something about ourselves in our interactions with people. Better to consciously choose it than let the unconscious drive the bus.

Another example of "pre-selection" is talking about past successes I've had with customers, but again, careful to not do it in a gloating way. Like people ask me what I do, I'll tell them, and I might include a quick story at the end about a recent customer that was absolutely thrilled with my work, and how happy and satisfied they were reminded me why I do what I do, that I just really love making a difference for people and having the privilege of providing this service for them.

I don't consciously think of this, I genuinely get excited when I think about my job and a lot of times I have to consciously stop myself from talking more about it because I could talk about it all day.

Just by saying something like I'm communicating a lot about myself. Not the least of which is having had customers in the past, people who've come to me for help, etc.

We always are communicating things about ourselves whether we like it or not. "Pre-selection" is just a catch-all term for letting people know, without coming off like you're bragging, that other people have recognized your value in the past and people value you in the present as well. I get along with people and people get along with me, I'm not afraid of interacting, I'm good at facing and resolving conflicts in a calm and controlled way -- this is the kind of stuff you can communicate.

You can notice how other people talk in conversations, and listen carefully and pay attention to the stories they're telling you. It's a good way to figure out what would be an appropriate story for you to tell in return, what to share about your life, while at the same time building up your own self-image and self-esteem by sharing a story that subtly highlights some of your better qualities, and good experiences you've had with people in the past.

All it takes is digging through your memories and looking for specific examples of when you acted in a way that you're proud of. Select THOSE things as the image you present to people. Funny thing is most of us select only the bad ones and focus on them as if they define us.

Businesses use this all the time, with exhaustive lists and testimonials from famous or non-famous clients, reviews, etc. People trust business owners that have a long history of satisfied customers and a reputation for good customer service, which can only be had through pre-selection: customers actually having chosen you before.

I'll admit "pre-selection" is a bit gimmicky of a term, but as a catch-all concept it's useful. If we want people to like us and to get along with people, and have fun, sharing some stories or tidbits about times you got along with and had fun with other people can be one tool to build that.

Again: very interesting as well to just keep quiet and observe how other people talk about themselves, and the stories they tell when in a group of people. Also notice how it affects your perception of them. Lots of insights.
 

Momado965

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I literally just mean telling stories about experiences you've had with other people, such as a girlfriend. Not in a gloating way.

I was so bad that I literally used to just tell everyone that I'd never had sex, and would practically go out of my way to tell people I was awkward and uncomfortable. This is the opposite of "pre-selection." I would tell people outright that no one had wanted to be with me and I was just getting rejected all the time and I didn't understand why no one liked me. Obviously that didn't go over very well as far as making me attractive to other people.

I just did not know any better. But the reality is we're always communicating something about ourselves in our interactions with people. Better to consciously choose it than let the unconscious drive the bus.

Another example of "pre-selection" is talking about past successes I've had with customers, but again, careful to not do it in a gloating way. Like people ask me what I do, I'll tell them, and I might include a quick story at the end about a recent customer that was absolutely thrilled with my work, and how happy and satisfied they were reminded me why I do what I do, that I just really love making a difference for people and having the privilege of providing this service for them.

I don't consciously think of this, I genuinely get excited when I think about my job and a lot of times I have to consciously stop myself from talking more about it because I could talk about it all day.

Just by saying something like I'm communicating a lot about myself. Not the least of which is having had customers in the past, people who've come to me for help, etc.

We always are communicating things about ourselves whether we like it or not. "Pre-selection" is just a catch-all term for letting people know, without coming off like you're bragging, that other people have recognized your value in the past and people value you in the present as well. I get along with people and people get along with me, I'm not afraid of interacting, I'm good at facing and resolving conflicts in a calm and controlled way -- this is the kind of stuff you can communicate.

You can notice how other people talk in conversations, and listen carefully and pay attention to the stories they're telling you. It's a good way to figure out what would be an appropriate story for you to tell in return, what to share about your life, while at the same time building up your own self-image and self-esteem by sharing a story that subtly highlights some of your better qualities, and good experiences you've had with people in the past.

All it takes is digging through your memories and looking for specific examples of when you acted in a way that you're proud of. Select THOSE things as the image you present to people. Funny thing is most of us select only the bad ones and focus on them as if they define us.

Businesses use this all the time, with exhaustive lists and testimonials from famous or non-famous clients, reviews, etc. People trust business owners that have a long history of satisfied customers and a reputation for good customer service, which can only be had through pre-selection: customers actually having chosen you before.

I'll admit "pre-selection" is a bit gimmicky of a term, but as a catch-all concept it's useful. If we want people to like us and to get along with people, and have fun, sharing some stories or tidbits about times you got along with and had fun with other people can be one tool to build that.

Again: very interesting as well to just keep quiet and observe how other people talk about themselves, and the stories they tell when in a group of people. Also notice how it affects your perception of them. Lots of insights.

Nice and thorough. Thanks.
 

Jib

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Nice and thorough. Thanks.

Sure thing, but keep in mind I haven't field tested any of this. I'm socially awkward as hell (usually) and am trying hard to boost my social skills. So these concepts are new for me.

See how that works? Now what do you think of me? ;) It's funny because I'm both being serious, but also seeing how my lack of confidence can come out in what I say, and people notice these things.

When you're used to being one way, being another way can feel weird at first, like a new pair of shoes.
 

Cirion

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To be honest, having social skills is not even really a skill. Okay, that's not entirely true. But, consider this. I was socially awkward for 28-29 yrs of my life. Then at age 30, I got into the best health of my life, had insane confidence, libido, energy, motivation etc. and socialization literally become auto-pilot to me. If socialization was 100% just a skill, I wouldn't have gone from horrible to socializing to good overnight. I won't say I became *amazing* because even though I had the confidence, I didn't have the experience. But experience follows confidence, and vice versa. I was horrible at flirting for 28-29 yrs also. And in that span of time I actually lost count of how many girls I asked out, in person. You find you have no need for dating websites anymore. And remember, again, this is coming from someone who never asked girls out before.

It truly is quite amazing how much good health can transform your personality. This is why I'm so obsessed with these forums and milking all the knowledge and experience I can. Getting myself into super-human health is pretty much my life goal currently.
 

Jib

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To be honest, having social skills is not even really a skill. Okay, that's not entirely true. But, consider this. I was socially awkward for 28-29 yrs of my life. Then at age 30, I got into the best health of my life, had insane confidence, libido, energy, motivation etc. and socialization literally become auto-pilot to me. If socialization was 100% just a skill, I wouldn't have gone from horrible to socializing to good overnight. I won't say I became *amazing* because even though I had the confidence, I didn't have the experience. But experience follows confidence, and vice versa. I was horrible at flirting for 28-29 yrs also. And in that span of time I actually lost count of how many girls I asked out, in person. You find you have no need for dating websites anymore. And remember, again, this is coming from someone who never asked girls out before.

It truly is quite amazing how much good health can transform your personality. This is why I'm so obsessed with these forums and milking all the knowledge and experience I can. Getting myself into super-human health is pretty much my life goal currently.

Thank you for sharing this. This is inspiring to me.

My little initial anti-depressive stint with DHEA is over; I'm still taking it, 5mg daily, but the depression has come back full force. The anti-depressive effect seemed to only last a few days. My "morning" temps however are also low (97.4 F) so it's clear my metabolic rate isn't exactly raging right now.

I say "morning" because I have been super exhausted lately and waking up very, very late, like around 1-2pm most days. I finally managed to get to sleep at 1am the other day, earliest in a very long time, woke up at 8:30AM. I thought "okay, cool, I'll get back on track now." But I felt so exhausted I just fell back asleep and woke up at 1:30pm, and still felt like garbage after waking up then.

Beer belly that's stubbornly been hanging on also can't be a good sign, I'm gonna assume low T and elevated estrogen. I'm 5'11" and between 185-190lbs and that hasn't changed for years now regardless of what I eat. So at least in one way I guess it's good I haven't gone up in weight aside from a little more muscle. Put on some muscle from working out regularly, but the abdominal fat has not mitigated even a little bit. No "manboobs" thank god, my chest has developed OK from working out without any signs of that.

But constant feelings of fatigue/exhaustion unless I have a lot of caffeine (and even then I still don't feel great), and that stubborn belly fat, which I can't tell whether it's subcutaneous or visceral.

What are the changes you've made that you think have made the most difference?

Also, to keep this on topic: if serotonin is elevated in violent tendencies, what about cases like I'm having where it's the opposite of violence? Sluggishness, fatigue, lack of motivation, being so tired I can't even get angry about anything, and violence is the absolute last thing on my mind, not even a remote afterthought. Can serotonin also be playing a role in that, or is this something completely different?

I thought the inflammatory/stress response hormones and neurochemicals all kind of were in bed together. Like high serotonin/estrogen/cortisol would all kind of show up together for the most part.
 

Tenacity

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@haidut Do you think the things that decrease SERT density would also decrease NET (norepinephrine transporter) density, seeing as they're both sodium-dependent transport proteins? Any insight as to why hotter temperatures decrease SERT?
 

Mauritio

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I was put on SSRI's when I was 12. The first times I remember having homocidal thoughts was after I started that BS -- also suicidal thoughts, and actually started the habit of self-mutilation. That is no coincidence.

I swear that being on Lexapro, as well as Zyprexa (olanzapine), and a bunch of other meds, is a major part of what screwed me up so horribly. Nobody should be subjected to that BS, much less a child from prepubescent all through puberty while the body and brain are majorly developing. I worry now more than ever that this stuff permanently damaged me and there's no coming back from it.

Firsthand experience with what this is claiming. I had scarily violent and morbid thoughts, compulsively, after starting this stuff, and I can't count the amount of times I'd be in school where I felt like I would be ready to assault and kill anyone, teacher or student, that messed with me. Fortunately that never happened but I would not be surprised if I was in jail right now had somebody physically provoked me back then.

I had thoughts that were so morbid and violent I would never tell anyone about them. But now the shame is gone, and funny coincidence: all the horrible morbid, grotesque, violent thoughts and fantasies I had all but disappeared a while after I stopped all of my medications. I still can get angry but it's normal, and I don't have these sick thoughts anymore.

I stopped all the meds years ago, but wow. I feel like I should be able to sue for the hell I went through as a result of these medications, and there should be major, major lawsuits for companies like Eli Lily and the other ones that churn and dole out these absolute poisons to kids. It's sickening. Personally, my life was completely 100% ruined by a cocktail of drugs -- not the least of which was the SSRI's -- and while I've been off of them for years by now, I don't think there's any real coming back from it.

The damage was done, not the least of which was making me anti-social and irritable beyond control, so I went through to my adult life without any kind of social circles or support. Zyprexa zombified me and made me unable to function, and the SSRI was what got me into self-mutilation and the compulsive violent and homocidal/suicidal thoughts. The effects are far reaching: the medications screw with your head, which then affects your social development as well as your mental/physical development, and even if by some miracle you stop taking the drugs when you get older, the damage is already done.

It's absolutely criminal. Unquestionably. Since discovering Peat's work I have made progress by leaps and bounds, and my only medications now are Low Dose Naltrexone, and L-Methylfolate. A bunch of different carefully selected supplements and then infrared light therapy. And that's it.

Criminal...absolutely criminal. Makes me sickened beyond words to know firsthand the destruction that these medications cause, and yet to have no voice in the world and no option but to just passively watch as the madness continues. Pregnenolone has been helping me care a bit less but it still makes me feel extremely frustrated and hopeless if I dwell on it too long.

Mental health services providing pregnenolone, progesterone, thyroid, and other simple and cheap supplements for healing -- imagine a world like that. I suppose I've found it, even if it only exists in places like this.

Sorry to get so worked up but as you can see, I feel very strongly about this and any study that corroborates what I experienced firsthand really gets me fired up. Too many of us are just drugged like lab animals for corporate profit and then thrown to the wolves.
Very insightful. Sorry you had to go through that . But I'm glad you posted about it. Makes me dislike serotonin even more.
Also this is in line with most school shooters beeing on SSRIs as you can see what kind of thoughts serotonin produces. I think after all we're all slave to our hormones. Its probably impossible to be a good person when you're full of serotonin. Maybe you can fight it for some time , but not forever .
 

Jib

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Very insightful. Sorry you had to go through that . But I'm glad you posted about it. Makes me dislike serotonin even more.
Also this is in line with most school shooters beeing on SSRIs as you can see what kind of thoughts serotonin produces. I think after all we're all slave to our hormones. Its probably impossible to be a good person when you're full of serotonin. Maybe you can fight it for some time , but not forever .

I appreciate it.

It really is mind blowing. In the interim, not too long after I made that post, I started taking Rexulti, and am now dealing with sexual dysfunction over 1.5 years after discontinuing it. I made the mistake once again of trusting my psychiatrist, to the point of not even wanting to know what the drug was, because I knew I'd research it, find something I didn't like, and avoid it. Should have listened to my instinct.

For the record, Rexulti is an atypical antipsychotic and is a dopamine D2 *agonist* and serotonin 5-HT1A *agonist.* Anything that increases serotonin in any way is not good.

But yes. I am not completely close-minded and I do consider that some people seem to have great success on antidepressants. I can't ignore the many anecdotal reports of people finding improvement in their mental conditions. We have to consider all angles.

But in considering all angles, we must consider that people *at risk* or susceptible to negative effects from these drugs -- in such people, these drugs may actually cause these effects, full stop. They may not have the same effect on everyone, which is the first argument the naysayers will use. "Correlation doesn't equal causation." Well. Maybe in some cases!

I look at these drugs like the jab: they simply don't know the effects. And they have potential permanent side effects (Post SSRI Sexual Dysfunction, tardive dyskinesia, akathesia, etc.) that nobody warns anyone about, and take no accountability for if they happen. I know of at least one case where someone committed suicide as a result of PSSD, and experiencing the same symptoms myself after Rexulti, I can see why.

So if sexual function can be affected, it's safe to assume other things can be affected permanently too. Who knows what these things are doing to people's brains long term. It's important to maintain skepticism and what scares me the most is people who just give a complete pass to big pharma.

I have no dog in the fight, even though I've been directly affected by these drugs. I refrain from calling them poisons out of respect to people who have had severe mental illness and have found genuine relief/salvation by taking these meds. I will not say they never work for anyone ever. Perhaps it's too ambivalent a perspective. But I do think keeping an open mind and considering all angles is so important.
 

Mauritio

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I appreciate it.

It really is mind blowing. In the interim, not too long after I made that post, I started taking Rexulti, and am now dealing with sexual dysfunction over 1.5 years after discontinuing it. I made the mistake once again of trusting my psychiatrist, to the point of not even wanting to know what the drug was, because I knew I'd research it, find something I didn't like, and avoid it. Should have listened to my instinct.

For the record, Rexulti is an atypical antipsychotic and is a dopamine D2 *agonist* and serotonin 5-HT1A *agonist.* Anything that increases serotonin in any way is not good.

But yes. I am not completely close-minded and I do consider that some people seem to have great success on antidepressants. I can't ignore the many anecdotal reports of people finding improvement in their mental conditions. We have to consider all angles.

But in considering all angles, we must consider that people *at risk* or susceptible to negative effects from these drugs -- in such people, these drugs may actually cause these effects, full stop. They may not have the same effect on everyone, which is the first argument the naysayers will use. "Correlation doesn't equal causation." Well. Maybe in some cases!

I look at these drugs like the jab: they simply don't know the effects. And they have potential permanent side effects (Post SSRI Sexual Dysfunction, tardive dyskinesia, akathesia, etc.) that nobody warns anyone about, and take no accountability for if they happen. I know of at least one case where someone committed suicide as a result of PSSD, and experiencing the same symptoms myself after Rexulti, I can see why.

So if sexual function can be affected, it's safe to assume other things can be affected permanently too. Who knows what these things are doing to people's brains long term. It's important to maintain skepticism and what scares me the most is people who just give a complete pass to big pharma.

I have no dog in the fight, even though I've been directly affected by these drugs. I refrain from calling them poisons out of respect to people who have had severe mental illness and have found genuine relief/salvation by taking these meds. I will not say they never work for anyone ever. Perhaps it's too ambivalent a perspective. But I do think keeping an open mind and considering all angles is so important.
On paper this actually doesnt look like a bad drug. You could have done so much worse by just taking what your doc prescribes . It's even an antagonist at many serotonin receptors. Plus agonizing 5ht1a will lead to lower serotonin output since it's the autoreceptor.
It is a dopamine antagonist at lower doses and also an SSRI ,which can definitely be damaging.


Yes there is some benefits to those drugs, which has been discussed a few times before, many pssris are partial serotonin antagonists and / or raise allopregnanolone.
 

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