Electron Transport Chain / Mitochondrial Support Stack

[youngsinatra]

Hey everyone,

My mother (she's 42 years old) has a lot of health issues and a long history of health problems - celiac, hypothyroidism, depression, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, rheumatoid arthritis, poor mental functioning.

I am helping her in the process of resolving a lot of these issues. It is interesting to see a lot of issues manifesting in different areas across the last few years.
I don't believe in medical disease, I think it all comes down to mitochondrial dysfunction, excess exhaust, not enough energy supply.

I have come up with a stack, that she's currently taking, with great increase in energy, less discomfort, less brainfog.

The ETC support stack:

Dessicated Beef Liver - 6 capsules -> to supply bioavailable copper to complex IV / cytochrome c oxidase
Vitamin K2 MK-7 - 200mcg -> to supply a quinone
CoQ10 - 100mg -> to supply ubiquinol
Magnesium (-malate in the morning, -glycinate in the evening) - 200mg each -> to supply magnesium to complex V to create Mg-ATP

(I was thinking about adding in methylene blue but I am not as confident in this matter.)

I am taking this stack for myself as well at the moment + vitamin D3 + 1000mg niacinamide / TMG + pure encapsulations B-complex with great increases in energy.

What do you think about it? What would you add? Or change?

Peace!

 

[Jam]

I'd add some Pau D'Arco capsules (increases NAD+), 500mg 3x daily before meals (or Lapodin, 5 drops x 3), replace the MK-7 with MK-4 (5mg x 3) and ditch the CoQ10. Pau D'Arco (and now Lapodin) plus MK-4 completely eliminated my arthritic symptoms.

Edit: Niacinamide (for NAD) also helped me quite a bit, I take it via Energin (a few drops sublingually a day.)

 

[mostlylurking]

Hey everyone,

My mother (she's 42 years old) has a lot of health issues and a long history of health problems - celiac, hypothyroidism, depression, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, rheumatoid arthritis, poor mental functioning.

I am helping her in the process of resolving a lot of these issues. It is interesting to see a lot of issues manifesting in different areas across the last few years.
I don't believe in medical disease, I think it all comes down to mitochondrial dysfunction, excess exhaust, not enough energy supply.

I have come up with a stack, that she's currently taking, with great increase in energy, less discomfort, less brainfog.

The ETC support stack:

Dessicated Beef Liver - 6 capsules -> to supply bioavailable copper to complex IV / cytochrome c oxidase
Vitamin K2 MK-7 - 200mcg -> to supply a quinone
CoQ10 - 100mg -> to supply ubiquinol
Magnesium (-malate in the morning, -glycinate in the evening) - 200mg each -> to supply magnesium to complex V to create Mg-ATP

(I was thinking about adding in methylene blue but I am not as confident in this matter.)

I am taking this stack for myself as well at the moment + vitamin D3 + 1000mg niacinamide / TMG + pure encapsulations B-complex with great increases in energy.

What do you think about it? What would you add? Or change?

Peace!

Consider adding thiamine. Always pair with magnesium. Take with orange juice, for the potassium. Your mom could be suffering from thiamine deficiency along with the hypothyroidism. Check to see if her medication includes T3. If she is on synthetic T4, her hormones will keep the T4 from converting to T3.

 

[youngsinatra]

I'd add some Pau D'Arco capsules (increases NAD+), 500mg 3x daily before meals (or Lapodin, 5 drops x 3), replace the MK-7 with MK-4 (5mg x 3) and ditch the CoQ10. Pau D'Arco (and now Lapodin) plus MK-4 completely eliminated my arthritic symptoms.

Edit: Niacinamide (for NAD) also helped me quite a bit, I take it via Energin (a few drops sublingually a day.)

Thank you for your reply.
Why would you replace MK7 with MK4? I thought that MK7 would stay longer in the circulation and is more bioavailable in general.
Please let me know.

Why ditch the CoQ10? ??

 

[youngsinatra]

Consider adding thiamine. Always pair with magnesium. Take with orange juice, for the potassium. Your mom could be suffering from thiamine deficiency along with the hypothyroidism. Check to see if her medication includes T3. If she is on synthetic T4, her hormones will keep the T4 from converting to T3.

Alright. I haven‘t tried thiamine yet in isolation. It is in my B-complex from pure encapsulations, but at a much lower dose than what some people recommend on the forum.

What dosage would you recommend and which form?

She is taking 100mcg of Levothyroxine (T4), for a loooong time now.
It‘s standard care in germany for hypothyroidism. I don‘t know why exactly.

 

[mostlylurking]

Alright. I haven‘t tried thiamine yet in isolation. It is in my B-complex from pure encapsulations, but at a much lower dose than what some people recommend on the forum.

What dosage would you recommend and which form?

She is taking 100mcg of Levothyroxine (T4), for a loooong time now.
It‘s standard care in germany for hypothyroidism. I don‘t know why exactly.

All of the medical industrial complex promotes Levothyroxine (T4). The medical industry likes to set up people to be profit sources via multiple future illnesses. It's part of their business plan.

If you are female, Levothyroxine (T4) does not work because estrogen blocks the conversion of T4 to T3 by lugging down the liver while it's busy detoxing the estrogen. Your mother will benefit greatly from some T3, either in addition to the T4, or in the form of natural desiccated thyroid (contains both T4 and T3).

Ray Peat provides excellent information on thyroid, here's a link: Programmable Search Engine Start with this one: Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud

Get the Broda Barnes book, Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness, here: Amazon product ASIN 069001029X There are cheap used ones available.

A diary record of temperatures and pulses, (upon waking, after breakfast, afternoon) with a functioning old fashioned mercury basal body thermometer will be extremely helpful to your mother to understand how well her thyroid is working.

I cannot provide you with the thiamine dose that would be helpful for your mother. I think I remember Dr. Peat saying that a dose of 100mg/day could be helpful and would not be dangerous. Some people have bad reactions to thiamine, suspected to be caused by a potassium deficiency or another B-vitamin deficiency, or a magnesium deficiency. Here's a link to one person's experience: With Thiamine Paradox Symptoms Patience Is Key - Hormones Matter

If you want to learn about thiamine, this is a very good Youtube channel that has some very good videos about it: https://www.youtube.com/c/EONutrition/videos

In addition, this video with Dr. Chandler Marrs is very informative:



Finally, here's a link to a search for Thiamine on Dr. Marrs' website: You searched for thiamine - Hormones Matter (there's 188 results).

 

[Jam]

Thank you for your reply.
Why would you replace MK7 with MK4? I thought that MK7 would stay longer in the circulation and is more bioavailable in general.
Please let me know.

Why ditch the CoQ10? ??

Re. MK7:

No to my knowledge. This has been discussed many times on the forum. Just search for "MK-7 MK-4".

Re. CoQ10:

No, I don't think it does and even if it did MK-4 can substitute for CoQ10 for its electron transport duties. That's why Peat says vitamin K is better when people ask him about supplementing with CoQ10.

 

[youngsinatra]

Re. MK7:


Re. CoQ10:

Thank you

I have some resources in my notes on the K2 topic.
From my research it seems that MK-4 is poorly bioavailable and therefore needs such high dosages, whereas MK-7 all-trans has high bioavailability, longest half-life.
Cis-isomeres seems to be pretty much completely useless biologically for humans.
It's actually not that easy to find K2 MK-4 in germany, even on amazon.

(Sato, T., Schurgers, L. J., & Uenishi, K. (2012). Comparison of menaquinone-4 and menaquinone-7 bioavailability in healthy women. Nutrition journal, 11(1), 1.)


On the matter of K2 replacing CoQ10, I have seen some conflicting scientific material on that. Could anyone give me some studies on that matter?

(Cristina Cerqua et. al (2019). Vitamin K2 cannot substitute Coenzyme Q10 as electron carrier in the mitochondrial respiratory chain of mammalian cells.

 

[youngsinatra]

All of the medical industrial complex promotes Levothyroxine (T4). The medical industry likes to set up people to be profit sources via multiple future illnesses. It's part of their business plan.

If you are female, Levothyroxine (T4) does not work because estrogen blocks the conversion of T4 to T3 by lugging down the liver while it's busy detoxing the estrogen. Your mother will benefit greatly from some T3, either in addition to the T4, or in the form of natural desiccated thyroid (contains both T4 and T3).

Ray Peat provides excellent information on thyroid, here's a link: Programmable Search Engine Start with this one: Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud

Get the Broda Barnes book, Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness, here: Amazon product ASIN 069001029X There are cheap used ones available.

A diary record of temperatures and pulses, (upon waking, after breakfast, afternoon) with a functioning old fashioned mercury basal body thermometer will be extremely helpful to your mother to understand how well her thyroid is working.

I cannot provide you with the thiamine dose that would be helpful for your mother. I think I remember Dr. Peat saying that a dose of 100mg/day could be helpful and would not be dangerous. Some people have bad reactions to thiamine, suspected to be caused by a potassium deficiency or another B-vitamin deficiency, or a magnesium deficiency. Here's a link to one person's experience: With Thiamine Paradox Symptoms Patience Is Key - Hormones Matter

If you want to learn about thiamine, this is a very good Youtube channel that has some very good videos about it: https://www.youtube.com/c/EONutrition/videos

In addition, this video with Dr. Chandler Marrs is very informative:



Finally, here's a link to a search for Thiamine on Dr. Marrs' website: You searched for thiamine - Hormones Matter (there's 188 results).

Thank you. I have Broda Barnes book at home!

Will think about that! I am wondering if her doctor could prescribe her T3/T4 mixed meds. I only know of T4 meds.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thank you. I have Broda Barnes book at home!

Will think about that! I am wondering if her doctor could prescribe her T3/T4 mixed meds. I only know of T4 meds.

I've been hypothyroid all my adult life. I finally read Ray Peat's articles on the thyroid when I turned 65. Dr. Peat's knowledge saved my life. I printed the articles out, with two columns per page to give me areas for notes, and read them multiple times. I found printing out a hard copy extremely helpful as these articles are not "light" reading.

Your mother's age (40's) also implies elevated estrogen. Estrogen blocks the conversion of T4 to T3. I think Dr. Peat's articles on estrogen would be helpful: Programmable Search Engine The medical industrial complex promotes only estrogen supplementation; birth control, hormone replacement therapy, etc. Progesterone lowers estrogen. One of the progesterone supplements available on line is Progest-E.

Polyunsaturated fats cause lots of problems with body function. They increase the effect of estrogen and they block thyroid function. These articles would be helpful: Programmable Search Engine

If you find it easier to learn by listening rather than by reading, this link is helpful: Ray Peat Search Just type in "estrogen" or "polyunsaturated fats" (or PUFA") or "thyroid" into the search engine. The series of interviews on Politics and Science, titled Progesterone, are very good. See here: Ray Peat Interview - Politics And Science: Progesterone Part 1 - 3 (2012)

Your mother's doctor may be willing to add T3 to the medication but it is wise to arm yourself with knowledge about the subject before you try so you don't give up. If you get strong push back, you will weather the experience better if you are prepared with facts. However, you might be pleasantly surprised; the doctor might be all for it. I'm in the U.S.A; I have come across four doctors in 40 years willing to consider prescribing a med with T3 for me. Only one was willing to work with me to optimize the medication dose; that doctor is 84 years old.

 

[PeskyPeater]

Thank you

I have some resources in my notes on the K2 topic.
From my research it seems that MK-4 is poorly bioavailable and therefore needs such high dosages, whereas MK-7 all-trans has high bioavailability, longest half-life.
Cis-isomeres seems to be pretty much completely useless biologically for humans.
It's actually not that easy to find K2 MK-4 in germany, even on amazon.

(Sato, T., Schurgers, L. J., & Uenishi, K. (2012). Comparison of menaquinone-4 and menaquinone-7 bioavailability in healthy women. Nutrition journal, 11(1), 1.)


On the matter of K2 replacing CoQ10, I have seen some conflicting scientific material on that. Could anyone give me some studies on that matter?

(Cristina Cerqua et. al (2019). Vitamin K2 cannot substitute Coenzyme Q10 as electron carrier in the mitochondrial respiratory chain of mammalian cells.

MK-4 is made from mk-7 which is good absorbed.

Exactly K2 is not a good substitute for Coq10 when that is low. better use ubiquinol

Desiccated Beef Liver is dried liver and can be toxic

 

[Makrosky]

What about PQQ? It is something I have been trying lately and I like it. Have to learn how to use it better in terms of dosage and timing.

The "all quinones are interchangeable" or K2 is better etc. is just plain wrong. Each one has different and noticeable effects.