EFA “deficiency” In Real Life

[benaoao]

ALA Conversion is on an on-demand basis, which is low in humans. Fish and fish oil are overrated indeed. I don’t want a high Omega 3 intake nor AA. If I burn myself to the 2nd or to the 3rd degree I’m still burnt :)

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00900584/document

incorporation of αLNA into this storage pool represents a potentially important route of disposal of dietary αLNA and a reserve pool which is available for mobilisation during periods of increased demands

Isn’t it amazing how efficient our body is at storing dietary fat in case of eventual food scarcity (which isn’t happening anymore in the West?)

αLNA accounts for about 0.7% of total fatty acid neutral lipids in adipose tissue in men and women, while DHA concentration is approximately 0.1% and EPA is practically undetectable
Thus, it can be calculated that, in a 75 kg man with a fat mass of 15%, the whole body αLNA reserve in adipose tissue would be approximately 79 g (roughly equivalent to typical intake over 53 days)

Western people probably have ALA reserves far higher (15% is quite lean by modern standards) and can survive for a while without any in the diet. That’s certainly part of the reasoning behind Peat’s ideas.
My own case is different since I’m very lean and muscular; I’d rather get a tbsp a day of chia seeds.

 

[Kartoffel]

ALA Conversion is on an on-demand basis, which is low in humans

Reference? Also, since I haven't seen any evidence that DHA is needed for anything, I can't imagine what our bodies would demand it for.

That’s certainly part of the reasoning behind Peat’s ideas.

What?

 

[Elephanto]

@benaoao
Something that made me stop taking chia seeds is that ALA has correlated with increased prostate cancer risks in some studies.

Prostatic alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) is positively associated with aggressive prostate cancer: a relationship which may depend on genetic variation... - PubMed - NCBI

Alpha-linolenic acid and risk of prostate cancer: a case-control study in Uruguay. - PubMed - NCBI

five of six studies that have examined the relationship between alpha-linolenic acid and prostate cancer yielded a positive association, which was significant in four studies.

I like the usefulness of small O3 intake because, unlike COX-2 inhibiting substances, they directly block O6 from converting into Arachidonic Acid, which can promote cancer and inflammation not only through COX-2 but also Lipoxygenase (the later being more involved in prostate cancer and low dose Aspirin has been shown to increase Lipoxygenase levels since it diverts Arachidonic Acid from the COX-2 pathway; high dose Aspirin (1g+) blocks both but I feel it hurts my gut at this dosage and gives signs of intestinal permeability). Plus their potential usefulness in brain health. What I do is get a small cup of red caviar once a week or so at a Sushi restaurant (it's like $1), it's probably much lower in heavy metals than fish oil considering they haven't lived to accumulate them.

Prostate cancer risk and consumption of fish oils: a dietary biomarker-based case–control study

Reduced prostate cancer risk was associated with high erythrocyte phosphatidylcholine levels of EPA (multivariate relative risk = 0.59; 95% confidence interval 0.37–0.95, upper vs lowest quartile) and DHA (multivariate relative risk = 0.62; 95% confidence interval 0.39–0.98, upper vs lowest quartile).

This is suggesting that ALA has prostate cancer promoting effects independent of EPA and DHA.

 

[benaoao]

@Elephanto I highly doubt the relevance of observational studies. Blaming firemen for the fire is their specialty.

Reference? Also, since I haven't seen any evidence that DHA is needed for anything, I can't imagine what our bodies would demand it for.

What?

You’re quite dense aren’t you. Asking for a reference when I precisely quoted it. Same ***t the other day when you asked for a reference that some om3s are essential. And yeah, Peat says to lower PUFAs. Want references for that? You need evidences that the Sun is our star?

 

[Kartoffel]

@Elephanto I highly doubt the relevance of observational studies. Blaming firemen for the fire is their specialty.



You’re quite dense aren’t you. Asking for a reference when I precisely quoted it. Same ***t the other day when you asked for a reference that some om3s are essential. And yeah, Peat says to lower PUFAs. Want references for that? You need evidences that the Sun is our star?

I know that you and the rest of the Omega-3 gang don't like to be bothered by something as trivial as evidence, yet supporting your claims with conclusive material is an important part of scientific discussion. Anger, on the other hand, is seldom productive. You haven't posted any evidence showing that ω-3 fatty acids are essential (neither has anyone else here as far as I can see), and there is nothing in that paper you quoted above that shows that conversion of ALA to DHA happens on an on demand basis. Conversion of ALA to DHA is absolutely negligible.
You completely, and intentionally I assume, misinterpret what Ray says on the ω-3 fatty acids when you suggest that storage of them in our fat tissues is part of his reasoning when he says that you don't need to eat him. He thinks they are toxic in every amount, should be avoided as much as possible, and maintains that their essentiality has never been proven.

 

[Blossom]

If you mean the change from olive oil to macadamia nuts, mostly to keep PUFA low, but also convenience, taste, and they provide some extra nutrition. Olive oil is basically empty calories except for small amounts of k and e.

Thanks, yes I was referring to the switch from olive oil to macadamia nuts.

 

[tca300]

@Kartoffel Nothing you dont already know but I asked Ray this not too long ago, just in case he had run across information recently that might have changed his mind.

Me: I was wondering what you thought about the fatty acids DHA and Arachidonic acid in regards to them or DHA's precursor being essential for humans?
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/know-your-fats/precious-yet-perilous/

Ray Peat: If someone is still talking as though the Burrs demonstrated essentiality of PUFA, I don’t know what more to say besides what I’ve written; for the last several years, the evidence for essentiality has seemed to be that old people’s heads are full of DHA. The observation that newborn babies’ brains are “deficient” in those PUFAs would suggest that it’s new brains that are impaired, not old brains.

 

[Kartoffel]

@Kartoffel Nothing you dont already know but I asked Ray this not too long ago, just in case he had run across information recently that might have changed his mind.

Me: I was wondering what you thought about the fatty acids DHA and Arachidonic acid in regards to them or DHA's precursor being essential for humans?
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/know-your-fats/precious-yet-perilous/

Ray Peat: If someone is still talking as though the Burrs demonstrated essentiality of PUFA, I don’t know what more to say besides what I’ve written; for the last several years, the evidence for essentiality has seemed to be that old people’s heads are full of DHA. The observation that newborn babies’ brains are “deficient” in those PUFAs would suggest that it’s new brains that are impaired, not old brains.

Thanks. I don't understand where this apparent need to believe in DHA as an essential fatty acid for the brain comes from. It accumulates with age, its' breakdown products are strongly associated with mental decline and Alzheimer's, and not even the people that used to claim ALA and LA were essential ever claimed DHA to be essential as well.
The claims made by certain researchers are ridiculous, disturbing, and dangerous. They give it to babies or mentally ill children because they're "deficient", or claim that diseases like Zellweger's are caused by the inability to produce DHA from ALA. They try to make it sound like we have an absolute need for a certain quantity of DHA or say we make it "on demand". Yet, our ability to convert ALA into DHA is so inefficient that this claim is almost laughable. In this study they found the conversion of ALA to DHA to be between 0-0.04% [1].

1. Burdge, G.C.; Jones, A.E.; Wootton, S.A. Eicosapentaenoic and docosapentaenoic acids are the principal products of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in young men. Br. J. Nutr. 2002, 88, 355–363.
​

In case you're interested I also once asked him about DHA, and this was his reply:

"I have come to assume that many things appear in the journals as a result of a mixture of ignorance and bad assumptions. The idea of a “blood brain barrier” came into existence when experimenters didn’t think about the lipid/water partition coefficient. About 50 years ago, someone injected a soybean oil emulsion into rats’ carotid artery, and found that on the first pass through the brain, 17% of it was taken up by the brain tissue. Fats dissolve in fats. Phospholipid turnover in the brain is very rapid. Dietary PUFA accumulate with aging. " (Ray)

 

[tca300]

Thanks. I don't understand where this apparent need to believe in DHA as an essential fatty acid for the brain comes from. It accumulates with age, it's breakdown products are strongly associated with mental decline and Alzheimer's, and not even the people that used to claim ALA and LA were essential ever claimed DHA to be essential as well.
The claims made by certain researchers are ridiculous, disturbing, and dangerous. They give it to babies or mentally ill children because they're "deficient", or claim that diseases like Zellweger's are caused by the inability to produce DHA from ALA. They try to make it sound like we have an absolute need for a certain quantity of DHA or say we make it "on demand". Yet, our ability to convert ALA into DHA is so inefficient that this claim is almost laughable. In this study they found the conversion of ALA to DHA to be between 0-0.04% [1].

1. Burdge, G.C.; Jones, A.E.; Wootton, S.A. Eicosapentaenoic and docosapentaenoic acids are the principal products of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in young men. Br. J. Nutr. 2002, 88, 355–363.
​

In case you're interested I also once asked him about DHA, and this was his reply:

"I have come to assume that many things appear in the journals as a result of a mixture of ignorance and bad assumptions. The idea of a “blood brain barrier” came into existence when experimenters didn’t think about the lipid/water partition coefficient. About 50 years ago, someone injected a soybean oil emulsion into rats’ carotid artery, and found that on the first pass through the brain, 17% of it was taken up by the brain tissue. Fats dissolve in fats. Phospholipid turnover in the brain is very rapid. Dietary PUFA accumulate with aging. " (Ray)

Thank you for sharing that!

 

[Waremu]

Thanks. I don't understand where this apparent need to believe in DHA as an essential fatty acid for the brain comes from. It accumulates with age, its' breakdown products are strongly associated with mental decline and Alzheimer's, and not even the people that used to claim ALA and LA were essential ever claimed DHA to be essential as well.
The claims made by certain researchers are ridiculous, disturbing, and dangerous. They give it to babies or mentally ill children because they're "deficient", or claim that diseases like Zellweger's are caused by the inability to produce DHA from ALA. They try to make it sound like we have an absolute need for a certain quantity of DHA or say we make it "on demand". Yet, our ability to convert ALA into DHA is so inefficient that this claim is almost laughable. In this study they found the conversion of ALA to DHA to be between 0-0.04% [1].

It comes from corporate shills and Youtube gurus who think they're rocket scientists because they have a nutrition degree.

 

[Kartoffel]

Totally agree. So many people I have seen go overboard with the sugar because they misinterpreted what Ray said (of course, Ray said some sugar added is okay, but to get most of your carbs from fresh whole foods such as fruits, etc.).



Are you using maca




It comes from corporate shills and gurus who think they're rocket scientists because they have a nutrition degree.

Well, it looks like rocket science is relatively trivial compared to understanding the complex biochemical interactions that are involved in physiology and nutrition.

 

[Waremu]

Well, it looks like rocket science is relatively trivial compared to understanding the complex biochemical interactions that are involved in physiology and nutrition.

 

[Such_Saturation]

@Elephanto I highly doubt the relevance of observational studies. Blaming firemen for the fire is their specialty.



You’re quite dense aren’t you. Asking for a reference when I precisely quoted it. Same ***t the other day when you asked for a reference that some om3s are essential. And yeah, Peat says to lower PUFAs. Want references for that? You need evidences that the Sun is our star?

Cool it with the PUFA

 

[tara]

Isn’t it amazing how efficient our body is at storing dietary fat in case of eventual food scarcity (which isn’t happening anymore in the West?)

Western societies generally have enough food to feed everyone (though the quality is not always great). But on an individual basis, food scarcity conditions do occur, for reasons of economics, misguided 'health' advice, fashion and fat-phobia, and conditions such as anorexia nervosa or athletica, etc. I'm sure it has survival value at times in these situations too.

 

[ilikecats]

.

 

[ilikecats]

(warning: GRAPHIC DETAILS ahead) Few days ago the patch of eczema spread from my thigh to my testicles. SO BRUTAL! feels like someone ripped the skin off my balls everything hurts. My life went from being a blissful warm dream to pretty hellish tbh. I was so close to achieving a perfect state of being.... it was beautiful... now its gone. I can't seem to figure out the source. Im gonna have a few eggs today just to slow things down so I can figure things out (i still don't think pufas essential but it might be helpful for the time being to slow my metabolism down (temps are often 100 degrees and over) and get some food based micros if my problem is the result of a micronutrient deficiency). And a few eggs is a decent amount of PUFA but its still peaty). Also I feel i should start eating properly (shellfish, liver, occasionally egg, more fat (saturated), more fruit variety maybe more oj) instead of doing my crazy diet that requires supplementation to be sustained.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I was so close to achieving a perfect state of being.... it was beautiful... now its gone. I can't seem to figure out the source. Im gonna have a few eggs today just to slow things down so I can figure things out

Yes... yes, that's the issue...

 

[ilikecats]

@Such_Saturation alright smart guy what’s the issue?

 

[ilikecats]

@Such_Saturation if it’s due to a nutrient deficiency than it would help by slowing the metabolism down and therefore lowering the rate at which I burn through my micros and minerals. Just trying stuff out. Also there’s things I thought I might be missing that are in eggs that I thought might help (choline and biotin). Have you even ever had your metabolism close to that high before? I’d burn through 6000-7000 (sometimes more) calories easily everyday and that’s while being sedentary. My body temp sometime gets up to 101 degrees Fahrenheit. Pulse rate between 100-120bpm never going below 100bpm. And btw where did I say “that’s the issue” or implied that?

 

[Kartoffel]

@Such_Saturation if it’s due to a nutrient deficiency than it would help by slowing the metabolism down and therefore lowering the rate at which I burn through my micros and minerals. Just trying stuff out. Also there’s things I thought I might be missing that are in eggs that I thought might help (choline and biotin). Have you even ever had your metabolism close to that high before? I’d burn through 6000-7000 (sometimes more) calories easily everyday and that’s while being sedentary. My body temp sometime gets up to 101 degrees Fahrenheit. Pulse rate between 100-120bpm never going below 100bpm. And btw where did I say “that’s the issue” or implied that?

In order to lower your metabolic rate enough in order to lower your nutrient requirements you would have to eat a significant quantity of PUFA for a longer period of time. Especially if your metabolism is intense to begin with, it will take quite a bit of PUFA and time to "poison" your respiratory enzymes. Eating a more balanced and nutrient rich foods might be the more reasonable approach. You would also get a little more PUFA automatically this way.