Eating LOW FAT Leads To Serious Gall Bladder Problems!

[DaveFoster]

The point was to show the true character of "durianrider". Why would anyone follow or reference this "guru"?
Westsidepufa stated Colpo had an anger issue. Durianrider has actually stalked, threatened, and hit people, including his own ex-girlfriend. You can readily find more supporting statements on killing their dog, with a vegan diet, with a simple web search. Such as:

Did you object to Westsidepufa showing a video of, supposedly, Colpo getting in durianrider's face?

Both Freelee and Durianrider are insane and have irritability/low-grade mental illness; the fact that they're the face of fruitarianism is sad and telling.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

so of course she's going to look fit.

We disagree on what "fit" looks like. To me she looks like she's on endogenous anabolic substances. But I then don't claim that because I believe that about one individual, that then discredits any and everything about what she promotes. Thats not objective science.

.

 

[amethyst]

Both Freelee and Durianrider are insane and have irritability/low-grade mental illness; the fact that they're the face of fruitarianism is sad and telling.

I kinda have to agree with you on that. They give/gave horrible advice. Very irresponsible. I just saw a video where Freelee *influenced* her new boyfriend to get a vasectomy for crying out loud! She said it was his own decision . Poor guy is probably gonna regret it.

 

[raypeatclips]

This thread is just a hate train on Freelee and Durianrider now, what's the point?

 

[amethyst]

This thread is just a hate train on Freelee and Durianrider now, what's the point?

A few comments about them? They both set themselves up as the know-it-alls of nutrition and they give horrible/terrible advice to people. That's not hating on them. That calling it like it is about those two narcissists.

 

[Syncopated]

This is not true. There are many fruitarians and juicearians who have eaten a lowfat or nofat diet and they did not suffer any gallbladder issues.

Hulda Clark's research states that citric acid will also cause the gallbladder to contract and that is found in fruits.

 

[grenade]

Taurine may also help, too.

There was a study posted recently on this forum on how taurine supplementation improved the biovailability of fat-soluable vitamins - I believe because it stimulated greater bile release.

 

[Ideonaut]

I've started taking sunflower lecithin for my liver.Plus, of course, good pastured eggs have lecithin. I've read several times how good lecithin is for the liver. Maybe you could try that if you haven't already, since you said your liver has taken a beating. Anything we can do to help our livers is a good thing. Yes, I've heard that Chinese medicine says that anger resides in the liver. Makes sense being that it is connected to the gallbladder.

Before I got into Peat a couple of years ago, I was very impressed with this article about lipase Healing the Body - Lipase & the Fat Metabolism I thought of it as I read the above because the author, Dr. Walter Last, recommends mixing lecithin with fatty foods so that they will digest more easily. He sees lipase deficiency as a general problem and supplying plenty of it either by eating RAW FATS or thru supplementation as a panacea. "When the blood sugar level drops . . . stored fat can now be used to generate energy – but only if you have sufficient internal lipase. If lipase is deficient, fat remains in the fat cells and you feel hungry again, having another carbohydrate meal with a replay of the same story." Peat, however, disapproves of lecithin because it is a PUFA. Could he be wrong? Comments please.

 

[Ella]

I reckon my pancreas was about to blow because the diet switch made my triglycerides skyrocket

Thank you for this revealing insight into your pancreas experience, high triglycerides and fruit consumption. No doubt it would have been terribly scary for you. It is one thing to have elevated biomarkers but when an organ is increased in size, it points to being overworked and we need to step back and reassess.

I have a lot of respect for McDougall and would like to believe that everyone could live on starches however as many people on this forum and from my experience are not able to eat potatoes and rice without blowing up and becoming constipated. Fruit and pulp free juice provides them with the energy they are lacking from eating restrictive diets.

Reckon it probably helped the hypoglycemia by raising cortisol

How much fruit were you eating? Do you think the fruit/sugar suppressed your cortisol levels?

What does your diet look like now? Did you swap the fruit for potato, rice, corn and beans - McDougalls style?

"Oh look, here's a youtuber named "Stefanie Keto Person," a person who promotes a ketogenic diet, but look at her, she looks too muscular, she's probably on the juice and she doesn't look healthy, that proves keto is unhealthy,

I agree the muscular look on females is not attractive, yet it is the look that young females aspire too. It is no longer about being skinny (Twiggy look), it is all about being muscular. How sustainable is this ketogenic fad for females?

My daughter is a personal trainer and her obsession for this look really messes with her cycle and her T3 levels. When I try to tell her that she is pushing her body too hard she refuses to believe that exercise can be doing her harm.

It would be great to have Peat and McDougall together, so we could tease out some of those subtleties we are all still grappling with.

Peat and McDougall both agree that fat needs to be kept low - zero however, McDougall demonises milk and cheese and all animals derived foods. McDougalls says many times that he has no discipline when it comes to food. He does not trust himself to eat moderate amounts of anything. He eats turkey for thanksgiving. I agree we are all overfed with the wrong kinds of foods - but do we all need to adopt an all or nothing approach when it comes to particular foods. McDougall admits people fall short on Vitamin B12 and advocates supplementation.
Milk though provides B12 and lots of beneficial nutrients. Their attack on the harmful aspects of milk and cheese seem exaggerated and perhaps dairy's anabolic effect is just what the dr ordered in being able to cope with the never ending stresses of a modern life.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I agree the muscular look on females is not attractive, yet it is the look that young females aspire too. It is no longer about being skinny (Twiggy look), it is all about being muscular. How sustainable is this ketogenic fad for females?

People are free to do whatever they want with their own bodies, I couldn't care less. In my sentence that you quoted, I was making the point that the physical appearance of one person who purports to do one diet is meaningless.

When I try to tell her that she is pushing her body too hard she refuses to believe that exercise can be doing her harm.

Leave her be. She will do as she wishes and your efforts to change her mind are futile. It's wasted energy and time.

It would be great to have Peat and McDougall together, so we could tease out some of those subtleties we are all still grappling with.

I don't know what you mean by this.

Peat and McDougall both agree that fat needs to be kept low

Not true. Peat believes that pufa and monounsaturated fat should be kept low but he's made both pro high amounts of saturated fat statements and pro low amounts of saturated fat statements before. It depends on what his current position is and that may change like his position on mushrooms changed. Same with McDougall. People like Unnatural Vegan take him out of context and claim that he says that everyone should eat no overt fat at all. She's a liar.

McDougall demonises milk and cheese and all animals derived foods.

No he doesn't. See this video. And he recently hired a non-vegan MD to be the director of his program, Anthony Lim. Lim is not vegan. McDougall just promotes what he does because he has enough experience with people to where he knows what to tell them. If he's too easy on them, they won't do it. He's deals with sick and older people who need to be more strict.

McDougalls says many times that he has no discipline when it comes to food. He does not trust himself to eat moderate amounts of anything.

Source?

McDougall admits people fall short on Vitamin B12 and advocates supplementation.
Milk though provides B12 and lots of beneficial nutrients.

B12 is a unique nutrient that is not made by plants or animals. It's made by bacteria. And the important thing about B12 is an individuals absorption ability due to something called "intrinsic factor." B12 is not just a vegan issue and omnivores are foolish to not test their levels at least once every two years. I think everyone should take a b12 supplement at least once a month. The MMA (Methylmalonic Acid) test is the gold standard for B12.

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[Wagner83]

Thank you for this revealing insight into your pancreas experience, high triglycerides and fruit consumption. No doubt it would have been terribly scary for you. It is one thing to have elevated biomarkers but when an organ is increased in size, it points to being overworked and we need to step back and reassess.
How much fruit were you eating? Do you think the fruit/sugar suppressed your cortisol levels?

I posted this on an other thread:
Arterioscler Thromb 1991 Jul-Aug;11(4):1059-67
Will a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet lower plasma lipids and lipoproteins without producing hypertriglyceridemia?
Ullmann D, Connor WE, Hatcher LF, Connor SL, Flavell DP. Department of Medicine, Oregon Health Sciences University, Portland 97201-3098.

A sudden increase in dietary carbohydrate invariably increases the plasma levels of very low density lipoprotein (VLDL) and triglyceride. The present studies were designed to test the hypothesis that dietary carbohydrate-induced hypertriglyceridemia need not occur. In the first study we fed gradually increasing amounts of carbohydrate and gradually decreasing amounts of fat to eight subjects. The usual American diet (40% fat, 45% carbohydrate, and 15% protein) was followed in sequence by four diets in a phased regimen, the carbohydrate increasing by 5% of total calories and the fat content decreasing by 5% for each dietary period. In the last dietary period (phase 4), 20% of the energy was in the form of fat and 65% in the form of carbohydrates; the cholesterol content was 100 mg/day. Throughout the study, plasma triglyceride and VLDL triglyceride levels did not change significantly. The plasma total and low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol levels were greatly reduced, by 15% and 22%, respectively (p = 0.004). Plasma high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels decreased concomitantly. In the second study, after a washout period six of the subjects were initially fed the phase 4 high-carbohydrate diet for a 10-day period. The plasma triglyceride concentration increased over baseline levels by 47%, and VLDL triglyceride levels increased by 73%. We conclude that although a sudden increase in dietary carbohydrate increases the plasma triglyceride level, patients gradually introduced to a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet may achieve a significant reduction of plasma total and LDL cholesterol without developing carbohydrate-induced hypertriglyceridemia.

 

[Ella]

Not true. Peat believes that pufa and monounsaturated fat should be kept low but he's made both pro high amounts of saturated fat statements and pro low amounts of saturated fat statements before. It depends on what his current position is and that may change like his position on mushrooms changed. Same with McDougall. People like Unnatural Vegan take him out of context and claim that he says that everyone should eat no overt fat at all. She's a liar.

Why so angry? I did not intend to attack anyone. I am well aware of Peat's stance on saturated fats and he is as paranoid of unsaturation as I am. The difficulty my love is that you simply can't get a pure saturated fat. Peat says stearic acid is beneficial for the heart, however with any type of fat be it coconut (which comes close to being fully saturated), butter, cream, cow or lamb you will still be consuming an unavoidable amount of unsaturated fatty acids, thus the need to keep the diet low in fat. We were encouraged to do away with hydrogenated fats in preference for the fish oils and omega 6s & 3s; blaming them for all our ills. Perhaps they were not so evil after all. Peat has stated that he was looking for a source of hydrogenated coconut oil. When the mono & polyunsaturated fats in coconut oil are hydrogenated to increase saturation, some of the triglycerides are converted to trans fats. Trans fats, another evil that we worked hard to reduce in the food manufacturing process. Are trans fats lesser evils than PUFAs? This is all very interesting to me.

Peat has stated that over consumption of sugars will be stored as saturated fats and maybe this is the safest form to store.

No he doesn't. See this video. And he recently hired a non-vegan MD to be the director of his program, Anthony Lim. Lim is not vegan. McDougall just promotes what he does because he has enough experience with people to where he knows what to tell them. If he's too easy on them, they won't do it. He's deals with sick and older people who need to be more strict.

I have heard him mention Dr Lim however, I am not familiar with the foods he advocates. However, Barnard has been doing a good job demonising milk and cheese. Yes you are right; sick and older people need to be more strict however, I have seen only good things from milk for really sick and old people. Old and sick people are not good at feeding themselves so milk is an easy convenient nutrient dense food that requires no preparation.

People are free to do whatever they want with their own bodies, I couldn't care less. In my sentence that you quoted, I was making the point that the physical appearance of one person who purports to do one diet is meaningless.

I don't care what other people do their bodies but I do care what my children do and my daughter's fertility is important to me as it is to her. There is more to health than looking shred. I think in Peat's last KMUD interview, he mentioned a higher BMI was protective for all-cause mortality. I think I recall him saying an average BMI of 30. This is the overweight to obese category. Did I just make this up or did he really say this? I have to listen again. I assume that the excess fat would need to be saturated and not PUFAs and preferably derived from excess carbohydrate and sugar consumption. This is one of those nuances I seek clarification on.

Leave her be. She will do as she wishes and your efforts to change her mind are futile. It's wasted energy and time.

You are wrong that children do not listen to their parents. Do you have children? I always allow my children to find out for themselves and then I wait patiently for them to return to mamma to ask for help - mamma knows best. I never tell them though and just let them think that they have discovered it for themselves. I then praise them for being super clever and intelligent darlings. A parent always guides gently and cautiously. Until my dying breath, it is never wasted energy or time. My children are my most precious gifts and it is my duty to nurture, love and guide them, not to step into dog ***t and help make sense of this crazy upside down, mixed up world I brought them into.

I don't know what you mean by this.

I was thinking aloud regarding the starch and persorption issue. Starch is problematic for many and yet fruit and sugar can be problematic too. What would be even more interesting would be to interview Peat, McDougall and the late Nicholas Gonzalez. Gonzalez advocated an individualised centred diet and was critical of Ornish, Atkins and others who advocated a-one-diet for all.

B12 is not just a vegan issue and omnivores are foolish to not test their levels at least once every two years. I think everyone should take a b12 supplement at least once a month. The MMA (Methylmalonic Acid) test is the gold standard for B12.

B12 deficiency is an issue for everyone and I agree, it should be monitored before too much harm is done. Many meat eaters are deficient and a wakeup call that not all is right in the gut. Milk for those that don't eat meat is a good source of B12 along with riboflavin, thiamine and other b-vitamins without being excessive.

Unfortunately, we lost Nicholas Gonzalez too soon and I tend to agree with Nick that diet should be person and disease specific.

I'd love to subsist on only potatoes, beans, bread, pasta and corn. This is the diet that unlike McDougall, I grew up on. I can't say it was an adequate diet for me as a child. Milk might have served me better. These are all easy and cheap to grow - I'd save loads of money on food. I listened to Mary McDougall's food prep video and it just made me cry. I had roast lamb for dinner tonight and boy did it taste good. I served it with potatoes, pumpkin and corn. Somehow, I could not bring myself to exchange milk and dairy for soy milk or any other pseudo milks or that texture vegetable protein stuff.

 

[Ella]

I posted this on an other thread:
Arterioscler Thromb 1991 Jul-Aug;11(4):1059-67
Will a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet lower plasma lipids and lipoproteins without producing hypertriglyceridemia?
Ullmann D, Connor WE, Hatcher LF, Connor SL, Flavell DP. Department of Medicine, Oregon Health Sciences University, Portland 97201-3098.

A sudden increase in dietary carbohydrate invariably increases the plasma levels of very low density lipoprotein (VLDL) and triglyceride. The present studies were designed to test the hypothesis that dietary carbohydrate-induced hypertriglyceridemia need not occur. In the first study we fed gradually increasing amounts of carbohydrate and gradually decreasing amounts of fat to eight subjects. The usual American diet (40% fat, 45% carbohydrate, and 15% protein) was followed in sequence by four diets in a phased regimen, the carbohydrate increasing by 5% of total calories and the fat content decreasing by 5% for each dietary period. In the last dietary period (phase 4), 20% of the energy was in the form of fat and 65% in the form of carbohydrates; the cholesterol content was 100 mg/day. Throughout the study, plasma triglyceride and VLDL triglyceride levels did not change significantly. The plasma total and low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol levels were greatly reduced, by 15% and 22%, respectively (p = 0.004). Plasma high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels decreased concomitantly. In the second study, after a washout period six of the subjects were initially fed the phase 4 high-carbohydrate diet for a 10-day period. The plasma triglyceride concentration increased over baseline levels by 47%, and VLDL triglyceride levels increased by 73%. We conclude that although a sudden increase in dietary carbohydrate increases the plasma triglyceride level, patients gradually introduced to a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet may achieve a significant reduction of plasma total and LDL cholesterol without developing carbohydrate-induced hypertriglyceridemia.

Wagner83, thanks for posting this paper again. I just read the whole paper and yes fascinating and highly pertinent for those transitioning from high fat-low-carb.

"Fish oil, however, did inhibit postprandial lipemia.36"

"It is inappropriate to assume that diet-induced decreases in HDL cholesterol concentrations carry the same burden of atherosclerosis as do low HDL cholesterol levels in high-fat-diet populations."

By what mechanism does it make it different?

"For the future, the effects of diets high in carbohydrate and low in fat need critical evaluation in patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus and hypertriglyceridemia. These patients are especially susceptible to coronary disease and should have maximal lowering of plasma LDL cholesterol levels. We suggest that the phased-carbohydrate approach may prevent the usual hypertriglyceridemic effect in these adult-onset diabetic patients. The data of the present study certainly suggest the benefits of the high-carbohydrate diet in human subjects with mild hypertriglyceridemia, who ordinarily would be the most susceptible to dietary induction of further hypertriglyceridemia.

Why would an increase in carbohydrates increase the release of fatty acids in the blood?

Another paper along the same theme:

Changes in plasma lipoproteins during low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets: effects of energy intake

"We showed that even when carbohydrate intake is increased in a stepwise manner, plasma triacylglycerol concentrations increase. The etiology of the carbohydrate-induced hypertriacylglycerolemia is not well understood. Although de novo synthesis of triacylglycerol from carbohydrates is well recognized in rodents, this process in humans was shown conclusively only in the past few years (23, 24). An important clinical finding that commonly accompanies hypertriacylglycerolemia is insulin resistance (25), which leads to elevated free fatty acid and insulin concentrations and consequently promotes hepatic triacylglycerol synthesis. In return, preferential use of triacylglycerol and fatty acids in muscle tissue may further impair glucose utilization (Randle hypothesis; 26). We did not see any increases in fasting plasma free fatty acid, insulin, glucose, or hemoglobin A1C concentrations during the controlled euenergetic diet. In addition, hypertriacylglycerolemia may have been caused by decreased clearance of triacylglycerol-rich lipoproteins by lipoprotein lipase (27). We observed previously that postheparin lipoprotein lipase activity, but not hepatic triacylglycerol lipase activity, decreased during dietary fat restriction in premenopausal women (28). A similar decrease in lipoprotein lipase activity may have been responsible for the increase in triacylglycerol concentrations in this study, but we did not measure lipoprotein lipase."

I remember Peat saying somewhere that high triglycerides are not a major concern.

Still, the fear of pancreatitis is a real concern. I think I will get my triglycerides checked. I know my husband's came down after doing lots of sugar. Food is mighty powerful.

 

[Ella]

So what are those other foods and supplements you speak of? Can you list them? I'd appreciate knowing. My research hasn't come across any alternatives.

The Black Russian Radish is one which contains a phytochemical known to detoxify the liver. Its main digestive strength is that it stimulates your liver to produce more bile and helps it flow more freely from your bile ducts to your stomach to neutralise excess stomach acid. It is rich in fibre, it speeds up your digestion, relieving constipation and colon back-up. It also boosts your immune system.

Artichoke: A component of the plant cynarin improves your liver and gall bladder function by stimulating secretion of more digestive juices and bile. It also improves elimination. In my village in Italy, traditionally artichoke was used to make an aperitif served before the meal. The traditional people were wiser than us modern people. The recipes were originally formulated by the monks that collected sacks of the medicinal herbs that grow on the mountains where I was born. These recipes were only known to a few women who passed them down to each generation.

Gentian: A Modern Herbal | Gentians
We also make an apertif with the root of the yellow gentian that grows wild on my mountain. It is a protective species and if caught uprooting it, the fine is a hefty 2000 euros. Many people risk it due to its powerful digestive benefits. If you come to my village it is customary you will be served this apertif before your meal.

Artemisia: Wormwood acts as an antiseptic and keeps the bowels clean by eliminating microbes. It is a repellent against unfriendly bacteria and even some parasite such as hookworms and pinworms. Plus useful for liver and gallbladder problems.

I am sure there are many others. These are the ones that my ancestors used to keep their digestion and gut sterile and perhaps what is lacking today. In my village, foods eaten were potatoes, corn, beans, pasta, pork in the winter time, bread and cheese when working in the fields with mountain spring water and wine. Milk was reserved for the sick as it was mainly used to turn into cheese to increase its storage life.

There are many products on the market based on these herbs. A regular apertif eliminates the need for probiotics, HCI, digestive enzymes and colon cleansers. The market for these digestive aids continues to grow exponentially, revealing that many people are suffering from bile insufficieny/deficiency.

 

[tara]

I encourage any members of the forums to learn from the man himself rather than get predigested bits of information from other members first!

+1

 

[Wagner83]

"It is inappropriate to assume that diet-induced decreases in HDL cholesterol concentrations carry the same burden of atherosclerosis as do low HDL cholesterol levels in high-fat-diet populations."

By what mechanism does it make it different?

Why would an increase in carbohydrates increase the release of fatty acids in the blood?



I remember Peat saying somewhere that high triglycerides are not a major concern.

I think a Peatish answer would be that low cholesterol in a high fat diet is dangerous given its protective and beneficial effects (precursor to steroids and has a role in digestion too), however HDL cholesterol typically rises after consuming toxic stuff like alcohol (just being a parrott here I did not check myself if it was true).

Just a guess but the lowered fat intake and switching to carbs as fuel could play a part.

WestsidePUFAs has said that fat is excreted in the form of triglycerides, so they'd increase as you get rid of most of the stored fat.

Thanks for the tips on digestive issues, I think the carrot is not very helpful for me, however the mushrooms are a different story.

 

[Ella]

WestsidePUFAs has said that fat is excreted in the form of triglycerides, so they'd increase as you get rid of most of the stored fat.

So triglycerides are inappropriately being blamed on increased fruit and carbohydrate consumption when the reality is that increased fruit/carbs consumption displaces fatty acids from storage sites releasing them as triglycerides into circulation.

If this is correct then we can use triglycerides as a marker of PUFA depletion (I don't think so) or modulate amount of triglycerides released into the system by either increasing or decreasing carb consumption. Releasing too much can be problematic for pancreas so we can't simply switch from low carb to high carb. Is it the TGs that are problematic or pufas or over burdened enzyme systems? In any case, we need to allow time for adaptation, which is what those studies showed - slowly increasing carbs while decreasing fat to prevent the increase in TGs.

Still triglycerides do not differientate between PUFAs and SATs.

What does it say when people switch to more fruit and sugar and we don't see higher triglycerides? Do these individuals have more efficient metabolisms that they simply burn the triglycerides for fuel?

Although de novo synthesis of triacylglycerol from carbohydrates is well recognized in rodents, this process in humans was shown conclusively only in the past few years (23, 24). An important clinical finding that commonly accompanies hypertriacylglycerolemia is insulin resistance (25)

I have not the read the references but it is precisely this de novo synthesis of triacylglycerol from carbohydrates that would be protective as they are stored as saturated fats. The body prefers to burn these in preference to PUFAs. So it may be that if we continuously overconsume carbs in excess we never get around to burning those PUFAs.

So how to proceed? I think keeping fat low in the diet would be prudent, at least for me. I think there is plenty fat in my diet. It's around 18 - 20% of calories but I am going to go lower but at a much slower pace provided TGs are OK.

I have to get my triglycerides checked. They have always been in the normal range but would be interesting to know what they are now that I have increased fruit, sugar and carb and lost all this weight. My husband's TGs have not increased even though he is doing loads of sugar and has now become addicted to coke. Unlike me, he was skinny as a rake and still is but his body and face looks better. He is more stress resistant both physically and mentally.

 

[Let Go]

Umm wow, what just happened?

 

[Birdie]

+1

I agree. It's fun to read the discussions, but Ray's newsletters and interviews help to put things together.

Oh, sorry. Thought the thing you quoted would show too. Oh well.

 

[ddjd]

Bile is helpful for fat digestion, but thats not its sole function, for example, it ( bile ) is the vehicle the body uses to rid itself of bilirubin

so is high billirubin a side effect of low bile?