E2 Is Not The Problem

[JKX]

T

@Broken man, if u have no time than waste my time.

@JKX Thyroid increase Adrenal reaction, which of course begs the risk for running longer time on a catabolic state, i dont ment production itself. Noradrenalin fe increases in hypo, but this can also cause due lower magnesium level.

Cortisol, just like all so called Stress hormones, are always needed. Otherwise we would be dead. Progesterone has its own effect, but still is a prohormone. Its absolutely logic that progesterone rises to feed cortisol. When i see people who take a lot of Omega3, and therefore block their conversion from Progesterone to Cortisol, they have really high progesterone but low cortisol, adrenalin, low dhea and testosteron. Estrogen is mostly unaffected.

Thats speculative. Increased risk? Have you ever tried thyroid? Its anything but catabolic. Its highly anabolic. Maintaining muscle mass becomes incredibly easy. Magnesium is lost in the hypothyroid state.

I didnt suggest cortisol wasnt required, but the amount produced in a hypothyroid state is greater to compensate for the lack of progesterone. It is produced in response to stress to maintain blood sugar. In that respect its helpful. But progesterone should fulfill that role in a non stressed state.

Progesterone does not rise to feed cortisol. This is not logical at all. The study you posted uses salivary measures that can be highly variable, probably due to the accuracy of the test method.

Salivary Concentration of Progesterone and Cortisol Significantly Differs Across Individuals After Correcting for Blood Hormone Values

You also conveniently ignored the study I posted demonstrating elevated cortisol in hypothyroid men. Perhaps because it doesnt support your preconceptions?

 

[b555]

I can only speak from experience. Trying to keep e2 lowish was a bad idea.... My e2 is higher than ever yet im in the best mood/ shape of my life.. BTW: My lipid panel has improved a lot since stopping an AI too.. Nothing but benefits with high e2.

 

[JKX]

Have you measured other hormones? How do they all correlate? I'd be interested to know.

 

[Shman Frontal]

@JKX

Thats speculative. Increased risk?

No, its not. Its well known that Thyroid Hormones intensify Adrenal response. A yung lean man who has stress and doesnt eat enough (this happens often enough) will get wracked by cortisol and co. Nothin speculative an that.


Have you ever tried thyroid?

No, no need for it.

Its anything but catabolic.

Well, kinda strawman. I havent said that at all.


Its highly anabolic.

I know

Maintaining muscle mass becomes incredibly easy.

As i said, if you can feed the system. If not, you get catabolic. Its no coincidence that hypo and hyperthyroidism have some of the same issues. More Metabolism need more nutrient and more calories, i you don't feed it than Cortisol and co will sky rocket, and as mentioned earlier, if you have goodt thyroid this will happen earlier than a euthyroid or hypothyroid person because thyroid make you more sensitive to adrenals.

Magnesium is lost in the hypothyroid state.

Yep, as i said.

I didnt suggest cortisol wasnt required, but the amount produced in a hypothyroid state is greater to compensate for the lack of progesterone.

What? Nope. Where the Cortisol comes from? Falls from the sky? No Progesteron= No Cortisol. Its very well known that Hypothyroid people have almost always adrenal insufficiency. Just read Broda Barnes, Peat citate him often enough.


It is produced in response to stress to maintain blood sugar. In that respect its helpful. But progesterone should fulfill that role in a non stressed state.

??????? Progsterone? Nope. Progesterone has its Job, but maintaining Sugar level? No. Cortisol stays low when muscles are loaded with carbs and the liver is full, Progsterone only feed in this context but never ever fulfill the role of cortisol. This is 100% pseudoscience or ignorance.

Progesterone does not rise to feed cortisol. This is not logical at all. The study you posted uses salivary measures that can be highly variable, probably due to the accuracy of the test method.

Its very logical. Once again? Where your Cortisol comes from? By Amazon?

The study i posted was backed up with blood levels and controlled by 4 groups, and the study you linked is outdated since my study already told that for women this is not accurate because of the ovarians. You actually prove nothin.

Salivary Concentration of Progesterone and Cortisol Significantly Differs Across Individuals After Correcting for Blood Hormone Values

You also conveniently ignored the study I posted demonstrating elevated cortisol in hypothyroid men. Perhaps because it doesnt support your preconceptions?

man, i dont which study you mean, just show it rather making theorys why i havent seen it (propably because im answering several people at the same time and working them out)

Here some educated Persons talking about it:

Though progesterone (PROG) is generally known as a gonadally released reproductive hormone, it is also produced in the brain and by the adrenal gland, where PROG is an indirect precursor to cortisol (CORT) (Baulieu et al., 2001). Like CORT, PROG is released in response to adrenocorticotropin hormone (ACTH) (Genazzani et al., 1998), and levels peak in the morning and decline over the course of the day (Groschl et al., 2003).

Also, studies in both humans and other animals have found increases in PROG and its metabolite, allopregnanolone, in response to stress (Barbaccia et al., 1996; Genazzani et al., 1998; Girdler et al., 2001; Klatzkin et al., 2006; Purdy et al., 1991) and other motivation/emotionarousing stimuli (Schultheiss et al., 2004). These rapid PROG responses are likely to be adrenal in origin. PROG and allopregnanolone have also beenimplicatedin affective disorders (e.g., Brambilla et al., 2004, 2005; Eser et al., 2006).

 

[mrchibbs]

I can only speak from experience. Trying to keep e2 lowish was a bad idea.... My e2 is higher than ever yet im in the best mood/ shape of my life.. BTW: My lipid panel has improved a lot since stopping an AI too.. Nothing but benefits with high e2.

Not from experience but rather from my research and interactions with other people, you wouldn't be the first to feel euphoric on high e2 in the short run, only for things to turn to ***t afterwards. E2 is involved in growth processes, so it can be a positive, at least when controlled, so I would try to use more p4 or p5 to balance the e2 but that's just me.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

I can only speak from experience. Trying to keep e2 lowish was a bad idea.... My e2 is higher than ever yet im in the best mood/ shape of my life.. BTW: My lipid panel has improved a lot since stopping an AI too.. Nothing but benefits with high e2.

Any bloodwork to back up those feels?

 

[b555]

Any bloodwork to back up those feels?

What tests specifically? I have done full panels

 

[b555]

Not from experience but rather from my research and interactions with other people, you wouldn't be the first to feel euphoric on high e2 in the short run, only for things to turn to ***t afterwards. E2 is involved in growth processes, so it can be a positive, at least when controlled, so I would try to use more p4 or p5 to balance the e2 but that's just me.

No thanks. My protocol and diet are dialed in, i feel great. People here are still struggling to get well. Rarely do i see good labs from here even people doing this diet protocol for years

 

[mrchibbs]

No thanks. My protocol and diet are dialed in, i feel great. People here are still struggling to get well. Rarely do i see good labs from here even people doing this diet protocol for years

Great. I still stand by my statement.

 

[Andman]

Not from experience but rather from my research and interactions with other people, you wouldn't be the first to feel euphoric on high e2 in the short run, only for things to turn to ***t afterwards. E2 is involved in growth processes, so it can be a positive, at least when controlled, so I would try to use more p4 or p5 to balance the e2 but that's just me.

this, estrogen/cort etc being excitants and feeling great/talkative/go-getter is like basic peat 101 and has been discussed here many times, all it takes is a quick search but well, aint nobody got time for that

 

[mrchibbs]

this, estrogen/cort etc being excitants and feeling great/talkative/go-getter is like basic peat 101 and has been discussed here many times, all it takes is a quick search but well, aint nobody got time for that

Indeed

At times it feels like the entire world has been brainwashed with respect to estrogen. It stimulates cell division and starts renewal processes, the problem is that in a state of progesterone deficiency, it leads to abnormal growth and a host of deleterious processes like cancer. In progesterone-deficient women for instance, estrogen will cause excessive thickening on the walls of the uterus. This follows general aging, where collagen accumulates under the influence of estrogen.

I think the stimulating effect of estrogen is akin to a shock, because it causes prolactin, cortisol, serotonin, parathyroid to rise. If it is balanced by proper nutrition, thyroid function, progesterone/testosterone, then it leads to actual renewal of tissues and regeneration. Which is why the transgenders who regrow scalp hair do it when taking large doses of progesterone and/or cpa/spiro alongside the E2.

Women benefit greatly from cyclical elevation of P4 and E2. Nobody benefits from constantly elevated E2.

 

[JKX]

@JKX

Thats speculative. Increased risk?

No, its not. Its well known that Thyroid Hormones intensify Adrenal response. A yung lean man who has stress and doesnt eat enough (this happens often enough) will get wracked by cortisol and co. Nothin speculative an that.


Have you ever tried thyroid?

No, no need for it.

Its anything but catabolic.

Well, kinda strawman. I havent said that at all.


Its highly anabolic.

I know

Maintaining muscle mass becomes incredibly easy.

As i said, if you can feed the system. If not, you get catabolic. Its no coincidence that hypo and hyperthyroidism have some of the same issues. More Metabolism need more nutrient and more calories, i you don't feed it than Cortisol and co will sky rocket, and as mentioned earlier, if you have goodt thyroid this will happen earlier than a euthyroid or hypothyroid person because thyroid make you more sensitive to adrenals.

Magnesium is lost in the hypothyroid state.

Yep, as i said.

I didnt suggest cortisol wasnt required, but the amount produced in a hypothyroid state is greater to compensate for the lack of progesterone.

What? Nope. Where the Cortisol comes from? Falls from the sky? No Progesteron= No Cortisol. Its very well known that Hypothyroid people have almost always adrenal insufficiency. Just read Broda Barnes, Peat citate him often enough.


It is produced in response to stress to maintain blood sugar. In that respect its helpful. But progesterone should fulfill that role in a non stressed state.

??????? Progsterone? Nope. Progesterone has its Job, but maintaining Sugar level? No. Cortisol stays low when muscles are loaded with carbs and the liver is full, Progsterone only feed in this context but never ever fulfill the role of cortisol. This is 100% pseudoscience or ignorance.

Progesterone does not rise to feed cortisol. This is not logical at all. The study you posted uses salivary measures that can be highly variable, probably due to the accuracy of the test method.

Its very logical. Once again? Where your Cortisol comes from? By Amazon?

The study i posted was backed up with blood levels and controlled by 4 groups, and the study you linked is outdated since my study already told that for women this is not accurate because of the ovarians. You actually prove nothin.

Salivary Concentration of Progesterone and Cortisol Significantly Differs Across Individuals After Correcting for Blood Hormone Values

You also conveniently ignored the study I posted demonstrating elevated cortisol in hypothyroid men. Perhaps because it doesnt support your preconceptions?

man, i dont which study you mean, just show it rather making theorys why i havent seen it (propably because im answering several people at the same time and working them out)

Here some educated Persons talking about it:

Though progesterone (PROG) is generally known as a gonadally released reproductive hormone, it is also produced in the brain and by the adrenal gland, where PROG is an indirect precursor to cortisol (CORT) (Baulieu et al., 2001). Like CORT, PROG is released in response to adrenocorticotropin hormone (ACTH) (Genazzani et al., 1998), and levels peak in the morning and decline over the course of the day (Groschl et al., 2003).

Also, studies in both humans and other animals have found increases in PROG and its metabolite, allopregnanolone, in response to stress (Barbaccia et al., 1996; Genazzani et al., 1998; Girdler et al., 2001; Klatzkin et al., 2006; Purdy et al., 1991) and other motivation/emotionarousing stimuli (Schultheiss et al., 2004). These rapid PROG responses are likely to be adrenal in origin. PROG and allopregnanolone have also beenimplicatedin affective disorders (e.g., Brambilla et al., 2004, 2005; Eser et al., 2006).

You're a tad too condescending for my liking and seem to enjoy twisting what has been posted for your own benefit, whilst ignoring things that do not support your own argument. I wasnt aware studies had a sell-by date.

You seem to think a stressed state is something positive and ignore the fact that hormones are produced in a non-stressed state under the influence of thyroid. All those studies show is that the body produces an increased amount of anti-stress hotmones when under stress.

Our views are at the opposite side of the scale.

 

[Andman]

You're a tad too condescending for my liking and seem to enjoy twisting what has been posted for your own benefit, whilst ignoring things that do not support your own argument. I wasnt aware studies had a sell-by date.

You seem to think a stressed state is something positive and ignore the fact that hormones are produced in a non-stressed state under the influence of thyroid. All those studies show is that the body produces an increased amount of anti-stress hotmones when under stress.

Our views are at the opposite side of the scale.

I very much agree, first thing that comes to mind is: would a person in good mental/physical health/good metabolism/low stress etc post the way this guy does? Probably not is my guess, which makes it pretty easy to disregard i think :)

 

[b555]

Indeed

At times it feels like the entire world has been brainwashed with respect to estrogen. It stimulates cell division and starts renewal processes, the problem is that in a state of progesterone deficiency, it leads to abnormal growth and a host of deleterious processes like cancer. In progesterone-deficient women for instance, estrogen will cause excessive thickening on the walls of the uterus. This follows general aging, where collagen accumulates under the influence of estrogen.

I think the stimulating effect of estrogen is akin to a shock, because it causes prolactin, cortisol, serotonin, parathyroid to rise. If it is balanced by proper nutrition, thyroid function, progesterone/testosterone, then it leads to actual renewal of tissues and regeneration. Which is why the transgenders who regrow scalp hair do it when taking large doses of progesterone and/or cpa/spiro alongside the E2.

Women benefit greatly from cyclical elevation of P4 and E2. Nobody benefits from constantly elevated E2.

Since stopping an AI and letting testosterone naturally convert into e2.(The way its suppose to be done)
My prolactin did increase slightly from around 5-6 to around 7-8. So a very minimal increase, although more testing will need to be to confirm.
I had no increase in PTH or cortisol. The last time i checked my whole blood serotonin was at bottom of range
My diet has been the same throughout , high sugar, low fat, moderate protein.

 

[Mito]

Since stopping an AI and letting testosterone naturally convert into e2.(The way its suppose to be done)
My prolactin did increase slightly from around 5-6 to around 7-8. So a very minimal increase, although more testing will need to be to confirm.
I had no increase in PTH or cortisol. The last time i checked my whole blood serotonin was at bottom of range
My diet has been the same throughout , high sugar, low fat, moderate protein.

Have you done a DUTCH hormone test by precision analytics to see what your estrogen metabolism looks like?

 

[b555]

Have you done a DUTCH hormone test by precision analytics to see what your estrogen metabolism looks like?

no it’s a fairly expensive test

 

[Shman Frontal]

@mrchibbs t times it feels like the entire world has been brainwashed with respect to estrogen.

yea.. whatever

It stimulates cell division and starts renewal processes, the problem is that in a state of progesterone deficiency, it leads to abnormal growth and a host of deleterious processes like cancer.

You need cell division and renewal, and the only scenario when Östradiol is too high and Progesterone is low, is when your're a fat. So dont be fat.

In progesterone-deficient women for instance, estrogen will cause excessive thickening on the walls of the uterus. This follows general aging, where collagen accumulates under the influence of estrogen.

Any source for that?

I think the stimulating effect of estrogen is akin to a shock, because it causes prolactin, cortisol, serotonin, parathyroid to rise.

That's actually the main problem here. Making theories which build up on false ground. There is no prove for that Estrogen increases Prolactin, moreover VitD can also increase Östradiol, but still lowers PTH. Only induced Estrogen is proved to increase Cortisol, otherwise there no correlation between them, they are also studies whoch shows that Cortisol lower Estrogen.

If it is balanced by proper nutrition, thyroid function, progesterone/testosterone, then it leads to actual renewal of tissues and regeneration. Which is why the transgenders who regrow scalp hair do it when taking large doses of progesterone and/or cpa/spiro alongside the E2.

Well, E2 is doesnt seem that important/dangerous since the Transgender still got better. How that happened?

Women benefit greatly from cyclical elevation of P4 and E2. Nobody benefits from constantly elevated E2.

Nobody claims this, it still about finding out the sufficient amount which is beneficial.

@JKX

You're a tad too condescending for my liking and seem to enjoy twisting what has been posted for your own benefit, whilst ignoring things that do not support your own argument. I wasnt aware studies had a sell-by date.

No, i dont, and I explain it very well. Your study tested only women, while mine tested Men, premeno Women and premeno women who takes contraceptives. Moreover, you study just look at different outcomes, not about the relation. Its absolut useless and has actually nothin to do with the point. And im pretty sure you know hat.

You seem to think a stressed state is something positive and ignore the fact that hormones are produced in a non-stressed state under the influence of thyroid.

Definitely not Just showing you how this works. Cortisol doesn't fall from the Sky, and its normal that precursors increases when more COrtisol ist needed (Progesteron, PREG and Cholesterol) This is absolute basic.

All those studies show is that the body produces an increased amount of anti-stress hotmones when under stress.

Yes of course, what do you thought what? And its important to understand the Pathway. Fe: whenn we inject somebody Cortisol than it will affect that person's body without the increase in PROG and PREG and Cholesterol. Of course this will show extreme harmful effect. And to stay in this: When Somebody produces good amounts of Östradiol through the whole pathway (PREG-Testosterone and than Aromatase) than it will have completely other effect than Somebody how gets the extra Östradiol from fat tissue because that person it fat. Im just honest to you: Its wayyy to reductive how think about Hormones, actually the whole forum thinks to reductive. And this wount lead to proper solution, otherwise you would already have it.

Our views are at the opposite side of the scale

No, you still have not understand how hormones work and interact. There is no quality View in the first place.

@Andman

I very much agree, first thing that comes to mind is: would a person in good mental/physical health/good metabolism/low stress etc post the way this guy does? Probably not is my guess, which makes it pretty easy to disregard i think :)

Interesting. Staying dumb and helpless, without questioning everything and not challenging Dogma is original learned helplessness. Doing the opposite is a life full of energy. I have energy to battle. You should rethink. Its not my duty lubricate you or others honey around the mouth (germany, guilty ).

 

[mrchibbs]

@Shman Frontal

You're aggressive, dismissive, pushy and you have no real argument. Try a more respectful tone and attitude and maybe I'll be interested in having a discussion with you. Otherwise, I'll pass.

 

[boris]

Interesting. Staying dumb and helpless, without questioning everything and not challenging Dogma is original learned helplessness. Doing the opposite is a life full of energy. I have energy to battle. You should rethink.

Interesting that you say that, because the dogma is that estrogen is healthful and progesterone causes cancer .

 

[Shman Frontal]

@mrchibbs
I took your "arguments" apart, and obviously you have no real chance to vote against. So don't pretend you have a choice

@boris Its not.