E2 Is Not The Problem

[Vegancrossfit]

Can't we just acknowledge that some estrogen is necessary but too much estrogen is really bad? Insulin is also absolutely necessary, but having the wrong amount is really bad. This is true for....every hormone? I mean, come on people lol

I think a more important way to approach this is Why something goes high.

Although for estradiol, the answer is oftentimes very simple: too much bodyfat

 

[b555]

E2 may not be the problem in and of itself but excess aromatase activity is.

I don’t often see E2 being way out of range though. Poorly justified use of anti estrogen food and medication is a recipe for disaster to me. Get bloods done before any and all supplementation!

I would not touch Dhea with a 10ft pole. Progesterone seems to me more appropriate. Few years ago I interacted with a kid who had some nasty anxiety issues and younger-more-sexist-me thought that even teenage girls seemed more grounded. This dude had high progesterone on his bloodwork (which freaked him out like y’all wouldn’t believe) and fantastic hair.

I wonder if we have data on progesterone and hair health.

have you tried low doses of dhea like 5mg?

 

[Broken man]

@b555 and @Shman Frontal Search Results | Ray Peat Forum

 

[schultz]

What are you doing to keep estrogen low?

Also what studies do you have to show that estrogen is involved with cancer?

Eating healthy, keeping stress low, some strength training. Avoiding PUFA would be the main thing.

Edit: Oh I am also taking aspirin currently @1g per day. Just fiddling around.

“Blocking estrogen is one of the most dangerous things you can do to your body. By taking AI’s- even in tiny doses- you’ll damage your endothelial lining

High estrogen levels do not exist. What is often misconstrued as high estrogen levels is actually high insulin, obesity and visceral fat.

A lot of what has come to be accepted about estrogen comes from the bodybuilding industry, not the medical industry.”

-Dr. Jim Lord, PhD in biochemistry

This gentleman is either an idiot or is profiting in some way from estrogen sales.

You should be against using an AI then

I am personally. I wouldn't consider them healthy. At the very least I think they should be researched more. It seems clear to me that they are not 100% selective of aromatase. One paper I read showed that one of the AI's increased estrogen in certain tissues in the body, however it didn't happen in all the patients and it's possible it only happens in certain tissues. So it's hard to know what is really happening without testing tissue estrogen, etc.

When you say AI I'm assuming it was a drug of some sort? Those tend to be hard on the liver. Whats bad for the liver is bad for the organism.

And if the liver is compromised then it cannot excrete estrogen properly. So that would be an estrogenic effect interestingly enough.

Can't we just acknowledge that some estrogen is necessary but too much estrogen is really bad? Insulin is also absolutely necessary, but having the wrong amount is really bad. This is true for....every hormone? I mean, come on people lol

I don't think anybody disputes this, but I think very little is needed in adulthood.

Blood concentration is not good marker because you can have high tissue levels.

Exactly.

I think people focus too much on blood levels for hormone analysis. Just the time of day that the test is done can skew the results heavily. I would recommend to people not to get blood tests done. I think for a lot of people they do more harm than good. Unless you get blood drawn 3 times a day for a week or something, where you can really see patterns emerging. But still, this wouldn't show tissue estrogen.


As always, this is my opinion. This is a forum after all and I am merely expressing my thoughts as I enjoy the conversation. I am not here to prove everybody wrong and be the best or belittle people (except Dr. Jim Lord, whom I called an idiot. Just read the quote though and you'll see that it was justified)

 

[boris]

Can't we just acknowledge that some estrogen is necessary but too much estrogen is really bad? Insulin is also absolutely necessary, but having the wrong amount is really bad. This is true for....every hormone? I mean, come on people lol

How dare you say that.
There is only black or white .

There is no perfect, we must decide at a point what do we want more. You wanna minimize your chance for prostate cancer? Well, than you have to stay bald. You don't wanna muscles because your PUFA has to be very low ? Fine. For me, im better having hair, looking good, hang out easier with girl than wasting my life thinking about that i might have increase the chance of getting prostate cancer because my estrogen is higher now than before. We wanna feel good, look good, have fun and sex and a life. I do not see a lot of those people here. But i see people eating a lot of PUFA, having estrogen, high NO and living their live. Some of them will maybe get sick, but they lived.

I think Shman Frontal has an interesting take. Estrogen and PUFA as the secrets to building muscle, having a full head of hair, looking good, feeling good and have fun and sex and a life. I say lead us by example Shman and in the process post some pictures for proof.

Anything less than this will not be accepted as proof :

Spoiler

On a serious note: What you are describing as people eating what they want and feeling and looking great, are just people with low stress. Sooner or later the diet will catch up with them in the form of degenerative diseases like you said yourself. When you work on not stressing out too much about diet hormones work and life, while still eating and supplementing healthily you will achieve the same and possibly live longer than them to enjoy it. Working on the right mindset is so often underestimated.

 

[mrchibbs]

@b555 and @Shman Frontal Search Results | Ray Peat Forum

The search function really is a lovely tool!

 

[JKX]

Seems I missed all the good stuff!

DHEA protective against breast cancer. Just for you @Shman Frontal

DHEA-S completely prevents breast cancer metastasis due to estrogen – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

Dont believe I backtracked on anything just yet. Your going to have to try a little harder to convince me.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

I don't think anybody disputes this, but I think very little is needed in adulthood.

Agreed. LabCorp’s normal range is something like 8-35 pg/mL. Quest I think recommends <29 pg/mL. There’s a video of a dude on YouTube who has been using Nandrolone for decades, leading to E2 around 6 pg/mL. Reports no issues whatsoever.

Oftentimes the issue with low E2 is low T.

It reminds me of the omega 3 propaganda. Where daily requirements are in the order of milligrams.

 

[Broken man]

Agreed. LabCorp’s normal range is something like 8-35 pg/mL. Quest I think recommends <29 pg/mL. There’s a video of a dude on YouTube who has been using Nandrolone for decades, leading to E2 around 6 pg/mL. Reports no issues whatsoever.

Oftentimes the issue with low E2 is low T.

It reminds me of the omega 3 propaganda. Where daily requirements are in the order of milligrams.

Ye exactly, the low t is problem for most of us because of lower androgens overall....

 

[Shman Frontal]

Where to start :)

@mrchibbs its time intense to roll over your Claims, which are very low level. Artificial Estrogen Medication is still not Östradiol. How often do we have to repeat this? In science its inadmissible to argue that way. An example: Calcium supplementation causes severe calcification and increase risk for heart, while calcium rich Foods (same calcium content under line) does the complete opposite, it lowers risk for calcification and heart disease. It's easy to see what is false on wise of "argumentation" a la "Chemical Estrogen/Derivates does this, therefore natural Estrogen does the same. Very low level of research qualities.

@vegan crossfit
E2 may not be the problem in and of itself but excess aromatase activity is.

Aromatase activity lowers with age, just like all useful or youth associated hormones. As i said, i dont no where all this Östradiol is coming from, no evidence for that.

Men with hair loss often have extreme high progesterone, which makes sense because its needed to build higher amounts of Cortisol.

@rei Please understand that there are no such things as pure estrogen inhibitors, all have various other effects. The only estrogen inhibitor worth using is progesterone unless you have a clear strategy for a temporary treatment of something specific.

there is no proof at all that Progesterone is an Aromatase Inhibitor. Since Progesteron is the starting substance for a wide variety of hormones nobody can say how or in which manner progesteron diminishes estrogen, if so. It should also be mentioned that Progesteron often increase Estrogen.

@Borken Man Search for low dose naltrexone book on Google and you will find that estrogen is driver of autoimmune diseases especially Lupus.

Naltrexone ? An Opioid Antagonist? Well... no comment anymore :)

Blood concentration is not good marker because you can have high tissue levels. Also about DHEA you will find study on this forum about being it protective against cancer.

Is it so? Maybe the young guy with the Testosterone level of a 80 years old Grandpa is not Testosterone deficient. We need to measure his tissue level ! Well, if we start like this than we had to consider the "Blood and tissue" thing at every level and every hormone. If accept this argumentation than almost all studies are useless. Btw its pretty silly to argue because the aromats enzymes in tissue increases with higher fat content and women after menopause are mostly a lot "heavier" than pre menopausal women. Either we use it for all, or none. So how you wanna start?

@Broken man again
So why you dont enjoy your life and are trying to convince us about estrogen?

Im a german researcher, its my job? And what has your Opinion to with the people who wants build an opion based on many perspective? Its my duty to argue, for science and all people around the world to find their way.

@Broken man again
@b555 and @Shman Frontal Search Results | Ray Peat Forum

Thats nice. Do you know Pubmed? its a real good website!

@schultz This gentleman is either an idiot or is profiting in some way from estrogen sales.

He is not an idiot. He is educated. And before saying that somebody talk with intention to sell something you should inform which medication is actually a blockbuster. Estrogen? No Profit at all. Gues, most profit will come in the next years through Supps. German Pharmas earn almost 30% through Supps. If we using this "logic" than "Big Pharma" would tell us all day how good Vitamins and Co are. But they don't.

@boris useless sentence

What you are describing as people eating what they want and feeling and looking great, are just people with low stress. Sooner or later the diet will catch up with them in the form of degenerative diseases like you said yourself. When you work on not stressing out too much about diet hormones work and life, while still eating and supplementing healthily you will achieve the same and possibly live longer than them to enjoy it. Working on the right mindset is so often underestimated.

What is low Stress? We need Stress. Reading Hans Selye's work would help. Its often claimed here that "people" will get sick or whatever. In reality they are doing that fine, they do even take drugs and still get 80. What does this tell you? At least for me it tells that there is more behind all this, and reductive approaches like "decrease Estrogen/PUFA/NO" are useless.

@JKX DHEA
protective against breast cancer. Just for you @Shman Frontal

DHEA-S completely prevents breast cancer metastasis due to estrogen – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

Dont believe I backtracked on anything just yet. Your going to have to try a little harder to convinve me.

Don't need to. Especially not to this low level of Argumentation. An in vitro study which uses MCF7 Cells ? Your serious? And this experiment let make you say DHEA protects against Breast Cancer? Holy. Its DHEAS (!) and DHEA btw. And you could use almost every other hormone to displace 17b Estrogen in this Estrogen sensitive cultures, this Paper want to proof that DHEAS has own action, nothin else.

 

[boris]

Why are you here then of all places?

Lead by example and prove it to us. Otherwise you are just looking to get in a fight. I know Selye's work, stress is inevitable. Obviously I am talking about excess (in the sense of Selye's GAS).

Regarding what I said about the mindset:

Its often claimed here that "people" will get sick or whatever. In reality they are doing that fine, they do even take drugs and still get 80.

I just referred to your own claim about prostate cancer.

 

[mrchibbs]

@Shman Frontal

Wow you're really on a crusade. And yet you're not saying anything meaningful. My claims are "low-level"? What does that even mean?

Is that not condescending to the extreme? You've dismissed every comment in this thread, and Ray's research out of hand.

I think you're not going about things in the best way to get your message across.

 

[JKX]

Men with hair loss often have extreme high progesterone because its needed to build cortisol?

Care to post that research paper? Care to define 'extreme high'?

Progesterone does lower aromatase... for example, below...and in direct opposition to that cortisol you suggest its being used to 'build'.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjANegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw0tl2cglT_T03EWp_HQv7MW

Yes, we require to consider blood and tissue concentrations of hormones at every level. Why wouldn't we???

 

[Andman]

Reads like a rather high estrogen person to me

However, the point about tissue levels of androgens/estrogens is a valid one

 

[mrchibbs]

Reads like a rather high estrogen person to me

However, the point about tissue levels of androgens/estrogens is a valid one

Ray has made that point many times before, serum levels of hormones are not reflective of tissue levels, and there are a few references which state that clearly.

 

[mrchibbs]

Men with hair loss often have extreme high progesterone because its needed to build cortisol?

Care to post that research paper? Care to define 'extreme high'?

Progesterone does lower aromatase... for example, below...and in direct opposition to that cortisol you suggest its being used to 'build'.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjANegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw0tl2cglT_T03EWp_HQv7MW

Yes, we require to consider blood and tissue concentrations of hormones at every level. Why wouldn't we???

Yeah men with hair loss don't have extreme high levels of progesterone, it's just that the ranges are fraudulently low so it makes it look like every man has "high progesterone".

 

[Andman]

Ray has made that point many times before, serum levels of hormones are not reflective of tissue levels, and there are a few references which state that clearly.

Indeed, however i think its quite a good point to state that this quite often is applied only to serum e2 etc levels while for example a high serum total testosterone level is many times considered the gold standard of male health and tissue androgens etc arent even mentioned

 

[mangoes]

Men with hair loss often have extreme high progesterone, which makes sense because its needed to build higher amounts of Cortisol.

honestly I’d be interested in seeing the studies on this if you’d care to share

 

[Broken man]

@Shman Frontal I cited book about low dose naltrexone because you will find sources of studies about estrogen being dangerous. If you would be Smart, you would ask about it. I hope you are not giving advice to real people......

 

[JKX]

Yeah men with hair loss don't have extreme high levels of progesterone, it's just that the ranges are fraudulently low so it makes it look like every man has "high progesterone".

+1