E2 Is Not The Problem

mrchibbs

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Im part of a HRT group on facebook that is against blocking estrogen. @haidut articles and peats articles have all been posted there and all heavily debunked by the doctors in the group.

Hundreds of articles debunked. Hm.

Unlikely.

Estrogen is a dogma for medical doctors, so not surprised that they defend it.

The evidence is overwhelming against estrogen and estradiol. If you want to dismiss hundreds of articles on the topic and all of Ray's stuff, fine, but it won't be convincing anybody here.
 

mrchibbs

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Prenatal endocrine influences on sexual orientation and on sexually differentiated childhood behavior

"Additional evidence that estrogen plays a role in neurobehavioral masculinisation early in life comes from evidence that blocking conversion of androgen to estrogen, or blocking estrogen receptors, has some of the same effects as castration, even in the presence of high levels of testosterone "

Ray has said this before. Estrogen is involved in masculinization. Which is so ironic because the mainstream dogma is that it's the "female" hormone lol
 
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b555

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“Blocking estrogen is one of the most dangerous things you can do to your body. By taking AI’s- even in tiny doses- you’ll damage your endothelial lining

High estrogen levels do not exist. What is often misconstrued as high estrogen levels is actually high insulin, obesity and visceral fat.

A lot of what has come to be accepted about estrogen comes from the bodybuilding industry, not the medical industry.”

-Dr. Jim Lord, PhD in biochemistry
 
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b555

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Hundreds of articles debunked. Hm.

Unlikely.

Estrogen is a dogma for medical doctors, so not surprised that they defend it.

The evidence is overwhelming against estrogen and estradiol. If you want to dismiss hundreds of articles on the topic and all of Ray's stuff, fine, but it won't be convincing anybody here.

I can try to set up a live debate, i know a few doctors that would debate @haidut but i doubt he would debate.
 
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b555

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Hundreds of articles debunked. Hm.

Unlikely.

Estrogen is a dogma for medical doctors, so not surprised that they defend it.

The evidence is overwhelming against estrogen and estradiol. If you want to dismiss hundreds of articles on the topic and all of Ray's stuff, fine, but it won't be convincing anybody here.

They convinced me.. I use to be a big fan of keeping e2 around 20 using a small amount of AI...
 

mrchibbs

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I can try to set up a live debate, i know a few doctors that would debate @haidut but i doubt he would debate.

I think he would, if it was a good faith debate and well organized. Although it's unlikely that the doctors would be respectful and not condescending. In general, doctors have looked down on anyone not "professionally trained".
 

mrchibbs

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“Blocking estrogen is one of the most dangerous things you can do to your body. By taking AI’s- even in tiny doses- you’ll damage your endothelial lining

High estrogen levels do not exist. What is often misconstrued as high estrogen levels is actually high insulin, obesity and visceral fat.

A lot of what has come to be accepted about estrogen comes from the bodybuilding industry, not the medical industry.”

-Dr. Jim Lord, PhD in biochemistry

The medical industry has been shaped and steered towards certain ideological beliefs regarding estrogen, by the influence of pharmaceutical interests. And it remains so to this day.
 
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b555

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The medical industry has been shaped and steered towards certain ideological beliefs regarding estrogen, by the influence of pharmaceutical interests. And it remains so to this day.
You should be against using an AI then
 

JKX

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They convinced me.. I use to be a big fan of keeping e2 around 20 using a small amount of AI...
When you say AI I'm assuming it was a drug of some sort? Those tend to be hard on the liver. Whats bad for the liver is bad for the organism.

Safer options...vit E, aspirin, progesterone. These all happen to improve liver function as well.

But if you're young and healthy and your liver functions well, those may not be necessary.
 
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b555

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When you say AI I'm assuming it was a drug of some sort? Those tend to be hard on the liver. Whats bad for the liver is bad for the organism.

Safer options...vit E, aspirin, progesterone. These all happen to improve liver function as well.

But if you're young and healthy and your liver functions well, those may not be necessary.

Yes AI as in arimidex. NO problems in using safe options if you want and optimze liver function. Im more against using drugs to block estrogen.
 

mrchibbs

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Yes AI as in arimidex. NO problems in using safe options if you want and optimze liver function. Im more against using drugs to block estrogen.

I am not suggesting anyone use a pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitor, because there are no selective aromatase inhibitors, they always affect something else, notably steroidogenesis, and pregnenolone levels can drop sharply for example.

I do think certain aromatase-inhibiting foods like white button mushrooms are helpful, because aromatase and reductase enzymes are activated by stress (hypothyroidism), and levels are often excessive.
 
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b555

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I am not suggesting anyone use a pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitor, because there are no selective aromatase inhibitors, they always affect something else, notably steroidogenesis, and pregnenolone levels can drop sharply for example.

I do think certain aromatase-inhibiting foods like white button mushrooms are helpful, because aromatase and reductase enzymes are activated by stress (hypothyroidism), and levels are often excessive.

Oh ok. I understand
 

Tarmander

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I think he would, if it was a good faith debate and well organized. Although it's unlikely that the doctors would be respectful and not condescending. In general, doctors have looked down on anyone not "professionally trained".
Doctors tend to be terrible debaters. Their whole MO is to regurgitate the algorithm they have been taught, not think for themselves.
 

Shman Frontal

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well, there it is. Again.

@JKX firstly you said (in this thread and the other one) that Östradiol rises with age, as so many in Forum do. Than you showing me a Article by Haidut which wracks this and now Östradiol (once again) its not the problem but Estrone. Changing position until it fits?

DHEA is associated with Breast cancer. Why? Because it activated/increases Estrogen Receptor. How does that make sense? DHEA is estrogenic in 2 ways (Receptor activation and Estrogen Prohormone)

Hypothyroid Women have low Estrogen, not high. The claim that Hypothyroidism goes with High Estrogen is, again, a claim without prove, and is one of many claims without any evidence (kust like Estrogen increases Prolactin)

Its insane. EVERY Youth- Enzyme goes down but in this Forum only Aromatase goes up with age. Like God himself invited to torment us, or what?

Female with androgenetic ALopecia have significantly lower Östradiol than those without. And guess what? Danny never mentioned it. That is DOGMA. Danny try to make researches, ignores Evidence because it would contradict the Dogma. Its your Choice, either this FOrum will evolve to get further, or it will stay (where ever it is) with the non-existent Success in mpb (and lot of other Things).
 

mrchibbs

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Doctors tend to be terrible debaters. Their whole MO is to regurgitate the algorithm they have been taught, not think for themselves.

Absolutely, they tend to give me the same vibe as religious apologists. Regurgitated arguments, dismissive attitude and angry reaction when you question their thinking.
 

mrchibbs

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well, there it is. Again.

@JKX firstly you said (in this thread and the other one) that Östradiol rises with age, as so many in Forum do. Than you showing me a Article by Haidut which wracks this and now Östradiol (once again) its not the problem but Estrone. Changing position until it fits?

DHEA is associated with Breast cancer. Why? Because it activated/increases Estrogen Receptor. How does that make sense? DHEA is estrogenic in 2 ways (Receptor activation and Estrogen Prohormone)

Hypothyroid Women have low Estrogen, not high. The claim that Hypothyroidism goes with High Estrogen is, again, a claim without prove, and is one of many claims without any evidence (kust like Estrogen increases Prolactin)

Its insane. EVERY Youth- Enzyme goes down but in this Forum only Aromatase goes up with age. Like God himself invited to torment us, or what?

Female with androgenetic ALopecia have significantly lower Östradiol than those without. And guess what? Danny never mentioned it. That is DOGMA. Danny try to make researches, ignores Evidence because it would contradict the Dogma. Its your Choice, either this FOrum will evolve to get further, or it will stay (where ever it is) with the non-existent Success in mpb (and lot of other Things).

@Shman Frontal

What are you trying to argue? That estradiol is the hormone of youth?

This argument has been at the core of the medical/pharmaceutical for several decades. The WHI in the late 1990s prescribed estradiol to women, and it was found to make everything...worse. Cancer rates, Alzheimer, Osteoporosis, you name it.

I make the same suggestion, that you search for the studies haidut has posted over the years, with the keyword "estradiol".
 

Shman Frontal

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@mrchibbs as you can haidut postet a article himself that says that estrone, and not Östradiol, seem to be the problem. Second: Chemical Derivatives of Östradiol are not the same as Östradiol: Third: EVERY Hormone injection (doesn't matter if Androgen/DHEA etc) has Side Effect. What will happen when a study comes out in the next years that proves that DHEA might be very harmful in some way ? taking DHEA, trying to lower Östradiol till bottom, this is relatively new. We do not even know what will happen in the future. What we do know: Östradiol is highest in Youth/Young healthy People AND the method measuring of Östradiol is not accurate. Peat talks almost exclusive when Estrogen is in excess or experimental Studies. Also a lot of his work and his references or extreme old. World is going on, we have to go with it.
 

mrchibbs

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@mrchibbs as you can haidut postet a article himself that says that estrone, and not Östradiol, seem to be the problem. Second: Chemical Derivatives of Östradiol are not the same as Östradiol: Third: EVERY Hormone injection (doesn't matter if Androgen/DHEA etc) has Side Effect. What will happen when a study comes out in the next years that proves that DHEA might be very harmful in some way ? taking DHEA, trying to lower Östradiol till bottom, this is relatively new. We do not even know what will happen in the future. What we do know: Östradiol is highest in Youth/Young healthy People AND the method measuring of Östradiol is not accurate. Peat talks almost exclusive when Estrogen is in excess or experimental Studies. Also a lot of his work and his references or extreme old. World is going on, we have to go with it.

You did not read my comment. I said to type "estradiol" in the search function, and search according to user.

You seem to be on a crusade, but there is overwhelming evidence that estradiol is specifically associated with adverse outcomes. It has a role to play in growth processes, but has potent negative effects in states of chronic excess. Clearly you haven't taken the time to read and understand Ray's work. If you think DHEA might prove to be harmful at some point in the future, you clearly have a lapse in your understanding of the physiology. Moreover, trying to dismiss Ray's references because they're "old" is a tired trope.

At any rate, there are plenty of relatively recent studies on estradiol available for you to dig into on this forum.
 

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