Dutch People Gained 20cm Of Height In Just 150 Years

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speaking of prenatal environment, anyone else notice that a lot of millennials and younger look a bit different? Lots of ginormous heads in addition to various gender bending traits. Ive always assumed its the xenoestrogen/toxic soups they developed in. No offense intended

Well, you're right: they're younger. I haven't seen a 55 year old millenial yet.

People look different in different phases of their lives, so it's a bit premature to say one generation looks differently than another until the generation is roughly 50+ years old.
 

x-ray peat

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Well, you're right: they're younger. I haven't seen a 55 year old millenial yet.

People look different in different phases of their lives, so it's a bit premature to say one generation looks differently than another until the generation is roughly 50+ years old.
Not talking about differences due to age or am comparing 50 year olds to 20 year olds. We have plenty of photos of how people looked 20-30 years ago as well as our memories for those old enough. I am also not talking about the majority of millennials.

Should it be so surprising that the huge increase in environmental toxins should have some effect on our children? Think of all the strange effects xenoestrogens have on other animals. I dont think its nearly as extreme in humans but Ive noticed changes in certain facial features that I have never seen before. I think most would agree that men have become a bit more feminine looking.
 
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Kayo

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Do you think this is also because they are not adding hormones to their milk? I heard that the milk in US today drastically lowers testosterone and increases estrogen.
 

Vinero

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Not talking about differences due to age or am comparing 50 year olds to 20 year olds. We have plenty of photos of how people looked 20-30 years ago as well as our memories for those old enough. I am also not talking about the majority of millennials.

Should it be so surprising that the huge increase in environmental toxins should have some effect on our children? Think of all the strange effects xenoestrogens have on other animals. I dont think its nearly as extreme in humans but Ive noticed changes in certain facial features that I have never seen before. I think most would agree that men have become a bit more feminine looking.
Vitamin K deficiency has been reported to cause facial deformities. Specifically a narrow face, with bad teeth.
 

x-ray peat

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Do you think this is also because they are not adding hormones to their milk? I heard that the milk in US today drastically lowers testosterone and increases estrogen.
Absolutely. Lots of estrogen in milk.

Vitamin K deficiency has been reported to cause facial deformities. Specifically a narrow face, with bad teeth.
Ive heard that and agree it is most likely part of the problem but I think it is more than just that.
They only really talk about certain impacts from estrogen like early onset puberty and menopause in women and decreased testosterone, sperm counts and even penis size in men. However it doesnt seem like much of a stretch to imagine other changes that they are not telling us about including appearance.
 

RisingSun

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Re: Dutch people gaines 20cm of height in just 150 years

Haha, "natural selection". I bet the irish were also tall before the famine and some people forcefully stopped potato shipments to cull population. You can call that natural I guess.

Just step into any university and witness what a bad diet does to your body and thinking approach. You will see crooked thin legs, slumped backs, long feminine hands. Also notice how many really smart people have large heads and certain similarly smart but usually high-up people have smaller heads. The larger heads tend to be more laid back and open minded, while the others seem to have gained their knowledge by cramming and generally forming habits which they also tend to expect from others.

There is a noticeable association of large skulls with intelligence, but it really becomes important when you measure the brain. Also

Masculine looks are mostly dictated by necessity.

Guys who've had it hard since the beginning, who needed to struggle in life, usually have that rugged look, thick hairy hands, thick forearms, thick beard and balding heads.

Guys who grew up in a comfortable environment where they had it all, no matter how masculine their father looks, usually have slender limbs and very feminized appearances.

You adapt to what nature expects from you.
 

Vinero

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Masculine looks are mostly dictated by necessity.

Guys who've had it hard since the beginning, who needed to struggle in life, usually have that rugged look, thick hairy hands, thick forearms, thick beard and balding heads.

Guys who grew up in a comfortable environment where they had it all, no matter how masculine their father looks, usually have slender limbs and very feminized appearances.

You adapt to what nature expects from you.
Interesting theory. I've had a comfortable enviroment since birth and have very slender feminine hands, and have little body hair and little beard growth. But I am sure there's a genetic component too, such as race and body hair of your parents. I have no problem building muscle though, so I assume my testosterone levels are normal.


My theory is that having a stress-free life allows higher progesterone production, while a stressful enviroment lowers progesterone and increases some stress-induced androgens along with estrogen. Those androgens and estrogen cause excessive male features such as thick beards, hairy body, and balding. You can see this in women too who are under stress and have excess adrenal activity, they start to grow whiskers or get hairy arms and legs, which points to some stress-induced androgen production, and lack of progesterone.
 
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Very interesting. I also came across this quote from the website below:

"Although in childhood growth may be stunted by a marked thyroid deficiency, there may be a seemingly paradoxical effect of a minor deficiency at puberty. The individual may become unusually tall. Growth stops with the closing of the growth centers at the end of each long bone. Thyroid hormone plays a part in causing these centers to close normally. With thyroid deficiency, growth may continue for some time. In adulthood, many of the effects of low thyroid function experienced in childhood may be carried over and new ones may emerge. The "problem" child--who was experiencing the effects of low thyroid function--may become an adult who all too easily may be mislabeled a -"neurotic-" or "hypochondriac" because of persistent or even accentuated fatigue, headaches, circulatory disturbances, and other manifestations of low thyroid function."

Tuberose.com, le site 100% dédié à la santé - tuberose.com
It's estrogen that causes epiphyseal growth plate fusion, not thyroid hormones; and hypothyroidism causes estrogen elevation. Since salt, sugar, saturated fats, and animal proteins (and sleep) prevent or cure hypothyroidism, eating those foods before puberty is likely to cause normal or even excessive height growth, while being healthy (euthyroid) or supposedly "unhealthy" (hyperthyroid [increased T3]).

Effects of estrogen on growth plate senescence and epiphyseal fusion
 

lvysaur

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speaking of prenatal environment, anyone else notice that a lot of millennials and younger look a bit different? Lots of ginormous heads in addition to various gender bending traits.
I don't see this as a bad thing, at least the head part. Larger heads are progressive; smaller heads are primitive.

As for the "gender bending", it depends on what you mean. If a guy wears long hair, or even a man-bun, or something like that, I don't see that as "gender bending", though many do.

The biggest change I've noticed is in women's bodies. Women just look way more sexual today than they did a decade ago--I'm referring primarily to white women here. One change I think happened is that womens' pelvises have gotten "taller", which accentuates the curviness of the waist by making a more drastic transition into the hip. Thus making it look like they have smaller waists and wider hips.

There was a certain look that I saw all the time in the 2000s that is relatively rare now--women would have these very full waists, without being fat. The reason is because their hips were "shorter" in the up-down direction.
 

InChristAlone

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I don't see this as a bad thing, at least the head part. Larger heads are progressive; smaller heads are primitive.

As for the "gender bending", it depends on what you mean. If a guy wears long hair, or even a man-bun, or something like that, I don't see that as "gender bending", though many do.

The biggest change I've noticed is in women's bodies. Women just look way more sexual today than they did a decade ago--I'm referring primarily to white women here. One change I think happened is that womens' pelvises have gotten "taller", which accentuates the curviness of the waist by making a more drastic transition into the hip. Thus making it look like they have smaller waists and wider hips.

There was a certain look that I saw all the time in the 2000s that is relatively rare now--women would have these very full waists, without being fat. The reason is because their hips were "shorter" in the up-down direction.
So I bet these pelvis changes aren't good for childbirth and may be why the c section rate is over 30% in the US. I have a wide hips and had two natural births easily.
 

lvysaur

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So I bet these pelvis changes aren't good for childbirth and may be why the c section rate is over 30% in the US
Maybe, I don't know. I think a lot of people misinterpret what this means, so I'll provide pictures:
https://i.imgur.com/OtvVgF2.jpg
(girl on right)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Hüfthose.jpg/800px-Hüfthose.jpg

Are both examples of the "short" pelvis. The pelvis's sides do not extend up very much. It makes the girls' torsos look fuller and wider, but not fat or masculine.

http://picture-cdn.wheretoget.it/1d...etty-tumblr-tumblrjeans-tumblr+girl-cute-.jpg
http://picture-cdn.wheretoget.it/qaps15-i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ur2TUb4.jpg

You can see here that the pelvis is taller, with a more vertical v-line, and the women have that very slender waist, curvy look. This is what I'm seeing more of these days.

I do not believe for a minute that these pelvic shapes are completely down to genes. There are probably hard genetic factors, but they're much more influenced by epigenetics/prenatal and formative environment. Maybe to some extent the immediate environment.
 

InChristAlone

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Maybe, I don't know. I think a lot of people misinterpret what this means, so I'll provide pictures:
https://i.imgur.com/OtvVgF2.jpg
(girl on right)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Hüfthose.jpg/800px-Hüfthose.jpg

Are both examples of the "short" pelvis. The pelvis's sides do not extend up very much. It makes the girls' torsos look fuller and wider, but not fat or masculine.

http://picture-cdn.wheretoget.it/1d...etty-tumblr-tumblrjeans-tumblr+girl-cute-.jpg
http://picture-cdn.wheretoget.it/qaps15-i.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ur2TUb4.jpg

You can see here that the pelvis is taller, with a more vertical v-line, and the women have that very slender waist, curvy look. This is what I'm seeing more of these days.

I do not believe for a minute that these pelvic shapes are completely down to genes. There are probably hard genetic factors, but they're much more influenced by epigenetics/prenatal and formative environment. Maybe to some extent the immediate environment.
I'd want to know if height plays a role. It seems the taller the woman the more pronounced this tall pelvis is. It is more the model look if you ask me.
 

lvysaur

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I'd want to know if height plays a role.
From a brief scouring of google, the tall variant is more common in taller women. It's also more common in African women over Eurasians (which would explain the more typical body shape there), and is associated with larger buttocks (again, expected). I'm going to speculate here and say that the tall pelvis is associated not with height, but with long legs.

It is a more "android" or male type of pelvis, and I've noticed that men very often have more projecting buttocks than women, although this is sometimes disguised by womens' greater fat deposition in that area. In fact I'd say it's probably the rule if you only counted muscle and not fat.

A comment on reddit states that it is associated with "assimilation of the sacral body to the last vertabrae": Smaller mothers of reddit: have you had any complications giving birth? : AskWomen

This is new info for me, but makes sense, as when I'm stressed my back feels tight and not straight. I've also posted before about both aspirin and K2 causing cracking or "crunchiness" of joints in the back and hip, as have other members (I've noticed it in my arm and femur joints too). There's something major going on here with bone fusion.

If the pelvis really did temporarily fuse to the last vertebrae, it would also mean a greater lordotic effect when trying to rest your hips in a neutral pose. I experience this, and here's a diagram I made illustrating why this would happen: https://i.imgur.com/fDgz9RB.png

Note how the pelvis has the same tilt (it should be naturally slightly tilted forward), but if fusion occurs, it has to tilt against the second-to-last vertabrae, which makes it stick out more. This also make the natural waistline higher up, as the indent in the back ascends, and this is very evocative of today's popularity of "high-waisted" jeans, contrasted to the 2000's era of "low cut" and "hip hugging" jeans.
 
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