Dry Eyes When Taking Estrogen Lowering Substances

Discussion in 'Eyes, Ears, Nose and Headaches/Migraines' started by Gone Peating, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. Gone Peating

    Gone Peating Member

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    Whenever I take supplements that supposedly lower estrogen such as methylene blue, vitamin E or vitamin K I get very dry and bloodshot eyes. Anyone else?
     
  2. lampofred

    lampofred Member

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    I get this sometimes if I'm feeling really good, but I don't really know why. I thought it was high androgens but there are plenty of people with more androgens than me who don't have bloodshot eyes.
     
  3. BigChad

    BigChad Member

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    I seemed to notice it from vitamin K, possibly from vitamin E, and seemingly from 200mcg selenium. I only took the E twice a week and K was 4x a week so its possible the selenium was simply recycling the E and causing the dry eye effect.
     
  4. OP
    Gone Peating

    Gone Peating Member

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    I've stopped taking potentially AI substances so often. I only took Kuinone once last week. I took about 10 drops orally at night and did not get dry/blood shot eyes. Interestingly, it was also the first time I felt the androgenic effects a lot of users report from it.

    I think maybe it functions as a strong AI, for me at least, even at small 1 or 2 drop doses which is what I normally take but that maybe the androgenic effects only come from higher doses taken after a high fat meal
     
  5. opethfeldt

    opethfeldt Member

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    I notice the same thing. I also notice that my limbal rings get thinner when estrogen is low. Thick limbal rings are supposed to be indicators of better health so I find it interesting.
     
  6. BigChad

    BigChad Member

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    my limbal rings have been bigger both when I was in good as well as bad health, I think there must be something more than estrogen involved,
     
  7. redsun

    redsun Member

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    A lot of "estrogen lowering" substances can reduce water retention but also can reduce histamine. Histamine plays a role in fluid secretions like tears, saliva, sweat, etc... So if it gets too low you can get dry eyes, dry throat... I get dry throat from taking benadryl, I generally avoid inheritantly antihistamine compounds these days because being dried out especially in the mouth is no fun. Chronic dry mouth for those who are prone to it will worsen teeth and gum health and oral health in general in the long term.
     
  8. BigChad

    BigChad Member

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    thats interesting, if they reduce histamine, that should mean they also reduce histamine intolerance, and allow you to handle histamine increasing foods better right?
    I noticed a bit of drying effect from k2 as well as selenium (maybe vitamin E as well). noticed dry eyes and mouth significantly.
    benadryl is a powerful anti histamine, probably much stronger than the anti histamine effects of things like vitamin A, K2, E, D3 etc?
     
  9. Wolf

    Wolf Member

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    I notice this too if I load up on histamine reducers. Milk helps to balance everything out when it comes to estrogen and histamine. Same thing if I'm loading up on beta alanine or flushing niacin
     
  10. redsun

    redsun Member

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    Niacin(all kinds) will actually increase histamine.

    Well that's exactly what benadryl is, an antihistamine. Histamine "intolerance" is simply high histamine(histadelic) so when a histadelic consumes nutrients or foods that increase histamine it will make them feel worse as they already have too much histamine in the body. You cannot be "intolerant" to histamine, rather if you have too much it will just overload and do things it should normally not being doing because its not being degraded at normal rates.

    Most vitamins don't primarily show their beneficial effects by acting on histamine from what I understand, though it may lower it indirectly.

    This graphic shows cofactors necessary for histamine metabolism. SAMe(from methionine), FAD(B2), iron, B6, B12, copper, vitamin C, all play a role in degrading histamine. The best thing for someone with high histamine(histamine intolerance) would be increased consumption of methionine.

    histamine_degradation_biochemistry.png
     
  11. BigChad

    BigChad Member

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    someone with high histamine would need to avoid supplementing niacin as well right?
    does nicotinamide riboside also raise histamine, significantly? how does it compare to niacin.

    niacinamide, 100mg a day, gave me histamine intolerance symptoms, also gave hypothyroid symptoms. would make me tired the whole day. tryptophan, histidine, and niacin intake should be limited with histamine intolerance? or it doesnt matter?

    also I am pretty sure I read zinc, selenium, iodine, and manganese are all also involved in breaking down histamine and/or reducing histamine intolerance in some way? maybe some fat solubles as well?
     
  12. BigChad

    BigChad Member

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    beta alanine consumption gave you a histamine reaction similar to niacin?
    could you comment on what histamine reducers youre talking about

    btw @redsun I used things like allerclear/claritin or benadryl daily for like 4 or 5 years in my early teen years due to allergies. I think that usage of antihistamines back then is maybe why I have excess histamine as an adult now? some sort of damage from using things like claritin, allerclear, benadryl
     
  13. redsun

    redsun Member

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    Well you still need niacin everyday regardless but higher doses is likely not ideal. More methionine in the diet will reduce histamine. I cant speak of more expensive less tested versions, but the general rule is that niacin increases histamine mostly because of reduction of methyl groups. If thats the case with nicotinamide riboside I don't know but you could assume so.

    Keep in mind niacins dont just act on histamine. In fact histamine can help improve wakefulness, niacin could be lowering blood sugar and causing low energy that way or it could be lowering noradrenaline and cortisol which could make you have less energy. I wouldnt be so sure that you have high histamine unless you easily check off a lot of the histadelic boxes. You can have a histamine reaction from allergens, mold, infections, food sensitivies etc... but doesnt mean you naturally have higher histamine levels.

    If you checklist the vast majority of these, then histadelia is likely but accurate blood testing is safer and obviously more clear cut.

    6c6323eb6bfda84a2f0f6d5930ba0cce (1).jpg

    Also to your other question of histidine, tryptophan, no you shouldnt avoid it ans stick to normal dietary amounts. Lowering tryptophan with a low-trypt diet can be helpful in other ways as its good at reducing serotonin.
     
  14. redsun

    redsun Member

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    I am not sure if there is a change in receptors for histamine from chronic antihistamine usage but if there was it would eventually normalize again after some time off them. If you are dealing with a lot of histamine you may find benefit just from more vitamin C, I often see vitamin C recommended for reducing histamine on the web and seeing as it is a DAO cofactor it makes sense.
     
  15. BigChad

    BigChad Member

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    I used to use 1000mg vitamin c a day, it likely did help to some extent but long term, especially after adding in some zinc supplementation, it depleted copper too much and eventually resulted in more histamine intolerance. copper seems complex and dangerous to supplement

    yes, I check the vast majority of those. do you have the overmethylator sheet?
    i had all or most of those symptoms before megadosing niacinamide btw.
     
  16. redsun

    redsun Member

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    Yes I just google "blank symptoms" and i get those.

    "Overmethylation symptoms", in others copper overload+low histamine(histapenia):

    9a4dbe9a02a3925c0eb076fe6b656457 (1).jpg

    In contrast to you, I have virtually ever symptom above, except libido problems(Im 22, makes sense) and being overweight, though I have a tendency to be overweight I am currently not. I thought overmethylation was bogus until I one time became conscious of my nervous pacing. Literally a lightbulb moment.

    Yes your right it can do that I completely forgot. You can always just eat copper rich foods if thats what your after. Theres quite a few that aren't liver.
     
  17. BigChad

    BigChad Member

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    i used to have all the undermethylation symptoms now i have the overmethylation ones
     
  18. redsun

    redsun Member

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    I was genetically predisposed to histadelia probably from birth and personally I think, although difficult, with nutritional deficiencies you can easily become the exact opposite, histapenic. I have leftovers of my histadelic appearance while being histapenic. Large ears and nose(especially), and very large hands and feet since a young age. Longer second toe. According to Pfeiffer, this is all an attempt to increase loss of body heat through surface area. Also was completely hairless on the body and my face as well had very little to none up until the age of 21 where I started growing tons of body hair. Some body hair in men makes sense, but getting it all over the place in increasing amounts of a sign of disruption when before I never had it.

    "
    Histamine is known to
    stimulate oxidation in the body. The accelerated metabo-
    lism is responsible for a slightly elevated body tempera-
    ture and the body develops anatomically to aid in the
    dissipation of this extra heat. Ears and nose are often
    enlarged in attempts to increase surface area. The most
    common adaptation, however, is enlarged hands and feet.
    The fingers and toes are characteristically long with the
    second toe frequently being longer than the first toe. Body
    hair is usually light and is especially noticeable in males
    with respect to facial and chest hair. Again, this allows for
    the more rapid loss of body heat. This patient is the hot one
    in a double bed and the doer in the family."

    I attached a link there if you want to look more into it, also provides his suggested treatment as well for each condition.
     
  19. OP
    Gone Peating

    Gone Peating Member

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    This is interesting

    My mother has had bad allergies for almost her whole life, I think she has taken a zyrtec or other anti-histamine nearly every day for the last decade

    She also has Sjogren's and extremely dry eyes and mouth - she basically produces zero tears

    What things can you do to increase histamine? Maybe her problem is actually that her histamine is too low and cannot produce bodily fluids
     
  20. BigChad

    BigChad Member

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    niacin and niacinamide supplementation. histidine via food or supplement? foods like vinegar, citric acid containing foods, olives, avocado, raise histamine I believe, or at least cause a histamine response. im not sure if nicotinamide riboside would do anything. I once tried this pure grass fed whey protein off amazon and it gave me a massive histamine response for some reason.
    I think something like thymoquinone or black seeds/black seed oil and certain vitamin/mineral supplementation would be better for the allergies than zyrtec. that's too strong of a histamine inhibitor.
    Most people I see tend to have histamine on the high side. A lot of beneficial foods, minerals have anti histamine properties. Seems like it's only in modern times with pharmaceuticals or megadoses of certain supplements that one can actually get too low histamine.
     
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