Dr Says I Have Borderline Low Testosterone

[marsaday]

Please do not try desiccated thyroid first of all. The best way to test if you need some thyroid is to use basic T4 first. See how it goes and use a small amount to start with (25mcg). The smaller amounts will complement your own production and so you won't get to the stage where the body is shutting off your own supply. This is really micro dosing and many people would benefit from this practise. Being 40 odd means your bodies production has slowed down and it will get worse as you age.

T4 only is often all we need (certainly men because we have cleaner livers and less oestrogen to interfere with thyroid production). Some other people think T3 only is the first port of call. This could also be an option, but make sure you only use tiny doses here (more so than for T4). A good starting dose is 2.5mcg

NTH comes with too much T3, hence why it is better to try and see how T4/T3 work before you use natural. People who have had the thyroid killed or removed do best on natural. It sounds like you have classic lower thyroid features and so you need a top up. It is likely to be permanent and you want to find the correct level without jumping past your sweet spot.

Also try taking the thyroid meds (if T4) at bedtime or in the evening. This will help sleep and better replicates when we make this hormone (first part of the night). This will have a knock on effect of improving adrenal performance. If using T3 take it in the morning, but some people do find T3 at bedtime better as well. The only issue you can get with T3 at bedtime is the greater stimulatory effect than T4. IT can keep you awake. Trial and error is the best approach.

 

[Iron Man]

Please do not try desiccated thyroid first of all. The best way to test if you need some thyroid is to use basic T4 first. See how it goes and use a small amount to start with (25mcg). The smaller amounts will complement your own production and so you won't get to the stage where the body is shutting off your own supply. This is really micro dosing and many people would benefit from this practise. Being 40 odd means your bodies production has slowed down and it will get worse as you age.

T4 only is often all we need (certainly men because we have cleaner livers and less oestrogen to interfere with thyroid production). Some other people think T3 only is the first port of call. This could also be an option, but make sure you only use tiny doses here (more so than for T4). A good starting dose is 2.5mcg

NTH comes with too much T3, hence why it is better to try and see how T4/T3 work before you use natural. People who have had the thyroid killed or removed do best on natural. It sounds like you have classic lower thyroid features and so you need a top up. It is likely to be permanent and you want to find the correct level without jumping past your sweet spot.

Also try taking the thyroid meds (if T4) at bedtime or in the evening. This will help sleep and better replicates when we make this hormone (first part of the night). This will have a knock on effect of improving adrenal performance. If using T3 take it in the morning, but some people do find T3 at bedtime better as well. The only issue you can get with T3 at bedtime is the greater stimulatory effect than T4. IT can keep you awake. Trial and error is the best approach.

Thanks for your reply!
I checked out "Stop the thyroid madness" and "Anabolic men" sites and thought desiccated thyroid was the way to go? Can you share your thoughts on why this is not good?
Now this is where I feel embarrassed and ask, where I can source T3 and T4 from. Are these synthetic? Can you provide any links like from Vitacost or Iherb? What brands are good?
I am tempted to give pregnenalone a go as well, but only for a month or so. Is this even worth it?

 

[Iron Man]

I am already on vitamins A, D3, K2 and Zinc. I have been on these for a long time, but even with these vitamins I still appear to be hypothyroid. Could my doses be too low?

Taking hormones worry me a bit, but I will do what I need to get this sorted.

 

[marsaday]

Stop the thyroid madness is pro NTH. For me synthetic T4/T3 is much better to use. The main reason is you have greater control over the ratio of meds you put in the body. We are all different and what works for one person doesn't always work for another. So T4 /T3 allows you to go on T4 alone or T3 alone. You can use more T4 in relation to T3 or less T4 in relation to T3. You can control the ratios.

It seems many think T3 is better used in a higher ratio to T4 (say 3:1). NTH will provide a 4:1 ratio. However, many people need a much lower ratio. Dr Blanchard in the USA has written some books and he reckons patients do best on a 98:2 ratio of T4/T3. This means using a tiny amount of T3. I am one of these patients (not actually dr blanchards) and found out for myself that less T3 works better for me. But a little T3 works better than none at all.

So T4/T3 allows you more control. It is cheaper as well and easier to get i think. Not sure of supply sites in the USA.

Pregnenalone is good to use, but i prefer progesterone oil from ray peat. This really helps me and i use 2 drops per day (6mg progesterone). It helped improve thyroid function and raised testosterone as i have blood tests which show all this. Again what works for me may not be what you need, but i feel the only way to get better is to trail stuff out. Try limit trials to one thing at a time because you will never know what is doing what. Another reason why i say use T4/T3 over NTH. You start on the T4 first and introduce the T3 a bit later (or visa versa).

 

[Iron Man]

Thanks for your reply.
NTH - Is this natural? Sorry, I am not up on all the abbreviations.
Where do you source your T3 and T4 from?

 

[Iron Man]

HI @Blossom, @charlie, and @Giraffe,

I have not been able to find some clear guidelines on what to do about hypothyroid and wondered if you can point me in the right direction with sending me some links?

Thanks so much.

 

[Blossom]

HI @Blossom, @charlie, and @Giraffe,

I have not been able to find some clear guidelines on what to do about hypothyroid and wondered if you can point me in the right direction with sending me some links?

Thanks so much.

This link might help. Scroll down to "starting thyroid".

New to Peat: How to get started? - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

 

[Giraffe]

with sending me some links?

Ray Peat email advice: Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki
He has written a couple of articles about hypothyroidism. See: Ray Peat
Interview transcript (skip the Hashimoto part in the beginning) Hashimoto’s, Antibodies, Temperature and Pulse KMUD, 2013

@Renky, are you still doing intermittent fasting?

 

[Iron Man]

This link might help. Scroll down to "starting thyroid".

New to Peat: How to get started? - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

Thanks Blossom... I have tried looking for this information, but could not locate it. I appreciate your help.

 

[Iron Man]

Ray Peat email advice: Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki
He has written a couple of articles about hypothyroidism. See: Ray Peat
Interview transcript (skip the Hashimoto part in the beginning) Hashimoto’s, Antibodies, Temperature and Pulse KMUD, 2013

@Renky, are you still doing intermittent fasting?

Thanks Giraffe! I stopped Intermittent Fasting after my Doctor said it was not good for me. He explained that when I did Intermittent Fasting, I was sending my body into shock and placing it under stress. I have since just been tapering off food quantities slowly and carefully. However... I think I am not eating enough anyway and this is another sign of hypothyroid. At a guess, I think I am consuming only somewhere between 1800 - 2500 calories a day. I just did a quick rough estimate...
Morning - Cup of oats + Raisins + Apple + whole milk + Greek Yogurt and a coffee ( I will soon be adding OJ)
Morning snack - Cottage Cheese and coffee
Lunch - Either ham and cheese sandwhich or left overs or bacon and eggs with whole milk
Afternoon snack - Cottage cheese
Dinner - Could be steak and vegetables, could be pasta, could be stir-fry, could be meat and salad.
Eggs are from our own chickens, ham and bacon is free from hormones and we cook with olive oil.

 

[Giraffe]

@Renky, do you have an idea what your calcium-phosphorus ratio is? According to Peat, the ratio "shouldn't exceed about 2 parts of phosphate for each calcium." A higher calcium part is better. Dairy usually has a good ratio, but cottage cheese is an exception. Meat and grains have a bad ratio.

You could run a typical day in cron-o-meter to get an idea.

 

[Iron Man]

@Renky, do you have an idea what your calcium-phosphorus ratio is? According to Peat, the ratio "shouldn't exceed about 2 parts of phosphate for each calcium." A higher calcium part is better. Dairy usually has a good ratio, but cottage cheese is an exception. Meat and grains have a bad ratio.

You could run a typical day in cron-o-meter to get an idea.

Wow... I would have no idea and you lost me on the " cron-o-meter " bit... Are you saying that cottage cheese is bad? I so love cottage cheese and hope this is not a bad thing.

 

[Giraffe]

Wow... I would have no idea and you lost me on the " cron-o-meter " bit... Are you saying that cottage cheese is bad? I so love cottage cheese and hope this is not a bad thing.

I love it, too. It can't be bad. Cottage cheese just does not have enough calcium to balance high-phosphorus foods.

I have never used cron-o-meter, but a lot of users here do.

CRON-O-Meter: Track nutrition & count calories

 

[Iron Man]

I love it, too. It can't be bad. Cottage cheese just does not have enough calcium to balance high-phosphorus foods.

I have never used cron-o-meter, but a lot of users here do.

CRON-O-Meter: Track nutrition & count calories

Thanks.

Do you know much about desiccated thyroid? Marsaday says no, but some other sources I am reading up says it is better than the synthetics. I am confused. Ray Peat is not real clear on what he thinks of desiccated thyroid.

 

[Iron Man]

@Blossom and @Giraffe

So far with all the reading that I am doing, it seems to be very clear to me that I am hypothyroid. Ray Peat talks about high cholesterol, rising ferritin and low testosterone issues all steming from hypothyroidism. Higher estrogen seems to be another factor and I am guessing I have this going on too.

According to Ray Peat, I need to try the following;

Iodine - short time only though
Take some sort of thyroid medication. Not real clear here. My preference is natural, but what works?
Take pregnenalone and Dhea (my Doctor advise me against this), but I am willing to give it a short trial until my next blood test in 6-8 weeks.

Am I on the right road with this?

 

[WestCoaster]

I'll throw in my 2 cents here and add to my previous post about visiting Anabolicmen.com (someone else mentioned it as well). Here are 2 links to their site about Testosterone boosting foods, one is a 9 food list, the other has 30 foods on it, some are on both lists:

https://www.anabolicmen.com/best-testosterone-boosting-foods/
30 Foods that Boost Testosterone Levels Naturally | Anabolic Men

There are obviously some foods on there that you may want to avoid, and others you want to add in.

Here is a link for foods that kill testosterone from the same site: 7 Foods that Lower Testosterone Significantly | Anabolic Men

There are a couple of things they have on another list I'll just add to it here instead of posting another link, add Rice, Prescription Medication, Sunscreens, and Caloric Deficit to that list above as Testosterone killers

I also noticed you said you only sleep about 6hrs per night. Is this every night including weekends? Nobody mentioned this, but you'll need at least 8hrs on average but no less than 7.. Realistically aim for 9hrs though. For every hour lost in sleep your looking at about a 15% decrease in Testosterone levels. Ranking sleep vs food vs supplements vs exercise vs thyroid, Sleep ranks completely off the charts and is incomparable to other interventions. Even T therapy is useless without proper sleep. You may find if you can consistently get at least 8 hours every night (and keep your sleeping times constant because the body like balance), you may find in a week or 2 things drastically change.

If you are hypothyroid, provided the usual suspects are eliminated (long term low carb and caloric deficits) lack of sleep long term can also cause hypothyroidism. You'll know this if you start waking up with cold hands and feet, and have this inner chill about you that a hot shower wont even fix. I honestly would consider 6hrs a night borderline lack of sleep.

To combat hypothyroidism the natural way (aka no supplements or medication): Sleep More, Eat More (preferably the Test boosting foods), eat caloric dense foods (and salt the hell out of them), and don't over-hydrate (keep all liquids to a minimum: Milk, O.J, water, coffee etc..).

Keep in mind Testosterone is Anabolic, whereas exercising and caloric deficits are catabolic. That means over-exercise will cause a drop in Testosterone just as caloric deficits will. Combine the 2 together (which is what people usually do to try and lose weight), it kills both their Testosterone and their Libido. If they are lucky, they lose weight, but often if they do, it just comes back when they eat again. The solution, increase activity somewhat and keep eating habits the same, the key is balance; just a constant balance.

If your ultimate goal is to lose weight which is the reason you're looking at Testosterone, 2 common things notorious for weight gain are dairy and grains (oats in your case). I would probably even rope cottage cheese into the dairy category; try eliminating it if weight loss is your goal. Keep in mind, if you are trying to super-boost your Testosterone quickly, you are likely going to gain weight in the process. It will be some fat, but it will also be muscle.

 

[Iron Man]

I'll throw in my 2 cents here and add to my previous post about visiting Anabolicmen.com (someone else mentioned it as well). Here are 2 links to their site about Testosterone boosting foods, one is a 9 food list, the other has 30 foods on it, some are on both lists:

9 Testosterone Boosting Foods for Men | Anabolic Men
30 Foods that Boost Testosterone Levels Naturally | Anabolic Men

There are obviously some foods on there that you may want to avoid, and others you want to add in.

Here is a link for foods that kill testosterone from the same site: 7 Foods that Lower Testosterone Significantly | Anabolic Men

There are a couple of things they have on another list I'll just add to it here instead of posting another link, add Rice, Prescription Medication, Sunscreens, and Caloric Deficit to that list above as Testosterone killers

I also noticed you said you only sleep about 6hrs per night. Is this every night including weekends? Nobody mentioned this, but you'll need at least 8hrs on average but no less than 7.. Realistically aim for 9hrs though. For every hour lost in sleep your looking at about a 15% decrease in Testosterone levels. Ranking sleep vs food vs supplements vs exercise vs thyroid, Sleep ranks completely off the charts and is incomparable to other interventions. Even T therapy is useless without proper sleep. You may find if you can consistently get at least 8 hours every night (and keep your sleeping times constant because the body like balance), you may find in a week or 2 things drastically change.

If you are hypothyroid, provided the usual suspects are eliminated (long term low carb and caloric deficits) lack of sleep long term can also cause hypothyroidism. You'll know this if you start waking up with cold hands and feet, and have this inner chill about you that a hot shower wont even fix. I honestly would consider 6hrs a night borderline lack of sleep.

To combat hypothyroidism the natural way (aka no supplements or medication): Sleep More, Eat More (preferably the Test boosting foods), eat caloric dense foods (and salt the hell out of them), and don't over-hydrate (keep all liquids to a minimum: Milk, O.J, water, coffee etc..).

Keep in mind Testosterone is Anabolic, whereas exercising and caloric deficits are catabolic. That means over-exercise will cause a drop in Testosterone just as caloric deficits will. Combine the 2 together (which is what people usually do to try and lose weight), it kills both their Testosterone and their Libido. If they are lucky, they lose weight, but often if they do, it just comes back when they eat again. The solution, increase activity somewhat and keep eating habits the same, the key is balance; just a constant balance.

If your ultimate goal is to lose weight which is the reason you're looking at Testosterone, 2 common things notorious for weight gain are dairy and grains (oats in your case). I would probably even rope cottage cheese into the dairy category; try eliminating it if weight loss is your goal. Keep in mind, if you are trying to super-boost your Testosterone quickly, you are likely going to gain weight in the process. It will be some fat, but it will also be muscle.

Thanks @WestCoaster! I was checking out the Stop the thyroid madness site and forgot about the anabolic men site.
My sleep is somewhere between 6-7 hours during the week and about 8-9 hours on the weekends. I think for me, it would be hard to get more than 7 hours during the week. A number of years ago, I was consistently running on 4-5 hours a night and I wonder if my health took a hit around that time. Probably...
With regards to weight loss, I would not say that I am really over weight. I am mostly muscle, but have some fat accumulation around the mid section that I want to get rid of. Currently I am about 215lbs.

 

[Blossom]

I personally think it's best to get your diet dialed in first because adding a thyroid supplement can increase your nutrient requirements. Once you've got a solid nutritional foundation you may find some of your issues improve or resolve.

I never responded to thyroid properly until I had been eating well for several months. I'm not saying it can't be done but it's hard to balance hormones if there are underlying nutritional deficiencies or your body is trying to correct an energy deficit from not eating enough through practices like intermittent fasting.

 

[redlight]

My opinion Start TRT and start living your life.... I would have a much different advice for you if you new to all diet stuff and were a young men.

If you don't want to try TRT at least go for DHT ,thyroid then reevaluate

Im looking forward to seeing your future blood work and to see if you have improvements via whichever path you pick

 

[Giraffe]

So far with all the reading that I am doing, it seems to be very clear to me that I am hypothyroid. Ray Peat talks about high cholesterol, rising ferritin and low testosterone issues all steming from hypothyroidism. Higher estrogen seems to be another factor and I am guessing I have this going on too.

Have you thought about trying vitamin E?

Vitamin E: Estrogen antagonist, energy promoter, and anti-inflammatory

According to Ray Peat, I need to try the following;

Iodine - short time only though

Seafood, milk, meat and eggs are good food sources, even more so if the animal feed is supplemented.

Take pregnenalone and Dhea (my Doctor advise me against this), but I am willing to give it a short trial until my next blood test in 6-8 weeks.

Stress hormones can turn DHEA into estrogen. Pregnenolone reduces stress reactions, but I would also look into other factors like undereating, lack of sleep, overtraining...

Have you tried red light or bag breathing?