Downsides Of Low Estrogens

[Wagner83]

After suffering weird bone/nerve pain from compounds that lower aromatase I became curious in the negative effects of low estrogens. Thanks to @Dante for the last one. Feel free to add more and discuss :

Management of arthralgias associated with aromatase inhibitor therapy

Results: DHT treatment increased serum DHT with complete suppression of serum T, luteinizing hormone, follicle stimulating hormone, and estradiol throughout the 24-month study resulting in reduced spinal bone density.
DHT administration had no effects on any of 33 measures of sexual function and mood, apart from a mild, but significant decrease in overall sexual desire, which was reversible after cessation of treatment.

Management of arthralgias associated with aromatase inhibitor therapy

Adverse events such as arthralgia and myalgia are more frequent with adjuvant ai therapy than with tamoxifen. However, they are predictable and may be easily managed with appropriate lifestyle changes and non-pharmacologic interventions, or with pain medications after accurate musculoskeletal evaluation and differential diagnosis. Although a few studies suggest the use of bisphosphonates to manage bone-related side effects 40, current evidence is insufficient to support the use of those agents in preventing skeletal events or improving survival in women with early-stage breast cancer 37. Although the association of estrogen deprivation with osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis in postmenopausal women needs further study, it is essential to understand that the symptoms are usually transient and resolve when the ais are discontinued at the end of therapy.

Aromatase Deficiency, a Rare Syndrome: Case Report

A 27-year-old male presented to our outpatient clinic with complaints of bone pain, recurrent forearm fracture associated with minimal trauma, and progressive increase in height.
First, a right forearm fracture developed after minimal trauma at age 15, and later, right and left forearm fractures occurred with minimal trauma at ages 19 and 24. A left forearm radiography performed at age 24 showed osteopenia, and the epiphyses were detected to be open. A diagnosis of osteoporosis was made based on bone densitometry performed in the medical facility to which he applied at age 26 with the complaint of pain in the bones, and alendronate 70 mg/week was started. After nearly one year of treatment, due to the progression of osteoporosis and progressive increase in height noted on follow-up, the patient was referred to our center for further evaluation. In his family history, the mother and father were first-degree cousins and he had two brothers. There was no infertility, primary amenorrhea, or hirsutism history in the family, but there was a history of kidney stones in two babies (relatives) who died in their early infancy (1-2 week). Our patient was born with ambiguous genitalia.
[...]body mass index was 25.7.[...]
A eunuchoid body habitus was noted. Secondary sexual characteristics were normal. The length and thickness of the penis was normal. Testicular volume, measured with an orchidometer, was >20 mL. No gynecomastia, goitre, acanthosis nigricans, or acromegalic appearance were noted.
[...]
Clinical and radiological findings include delay in bone maturation, lack of epiphyseal closure, continuation of linear growth, tall stature, eunuchoid body habitus, genu valgum, bone pain, osteopenia, and osteoporosis. Abnormal spermatogenesis, oligospermia, increase in testis volume, and cryptorchidism are often present. Metabolic syndrome findings such as abdominal obesity, insulin resistance, impaired glucose tolerance, acanthosis nigricans, non-alcoholic fatty liver, and dyslipidemia develop at early ages (1,4,8).
Treatment consists of estrogen replacement. Bone maturation and mineralization are normalized through estrogen treatment. Fast bone maturation is noted in 6-9 months when estrogen is used in high doses (25-50 µg/day) (11,12). 25 µg transdermal estradiol treatment was given every three days in our patient. In AD, estrogen treatment also normalizes gonadotropin secretion, glucose metabolism and liver functions, decreases lipids and insulin levels (13,14,15). In the third month of the treatment, decreases in FSH, LH, testosterone, total cholesterol and triglyceride levels, and increase in HDL level were detected in our patient. The increase in serum alkaline phosphatase and osteocalcin levels were linked to increase in remodeling activity within the bone.

@ecstatichamster @haidut

 

[sele]

Hi @Wagner83

If I may ask, what compounds did you use to lower aromatase?

 

[Wagner83]

Some of those are offered by idealabs and are potent (vitamin K2, estroban etc..), white button mushrooms in the right quantity are as well.

 

[schultz]

You quoted this study but I didn't see a link for it. It looks like you accidentally pasted the same link twice.

Keep in mind that the studies using DHT to suppress estrogen also suppress testosterone. I wanted to quote more from the study so that people had more information to go of off as I think the "drop" in libido from this study is insignificant (and possibly healthy). The reduction in spinal bone density is questionable to me. Ray has talked about estrogen "fooling" bone density tests. Notice in the quotes from the study below that the hip density was unchanged. Also of note is that the estrogen levels were maintained for 2 years at levels that are achieved with aromatase inhibitors. I personally think that aromatase inhibitors themselves cause problems in people that are not attributable to low estrogen. This study convinces me of that further since estrogen was kept so low with no side effects, other than an apparent slight decline in libido which the participants themselves didn't even notice, and the spine bone density thing which I try to explain below with a Peat quote.

Male sexual function can be maintained without aromatization: randomized placebo-controlled trial of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in healthy, older me... - PubMed - NCBI

"The present study reveals that, in middle-aged and older eugonadal men in good health, sustained estrogen deficiency for 24 months induced
by administration of the non-aromatizable androgen DHT has no major detrimental effects on self-reported sexual function or mood, apart from
a minor, reversible reduction in overall sexual desire. The effect on sexual desire is small in magnitude, being only detectable using a powerful
study design, but was not sufficient for participants, unpaid volunteers, to notice or complain of."

"Serum estradiol (Table 1), T, LH, and FSH were suppressed by DHT treatment and returned to baseline after end of treatment but were unchanged
by placebo treatment. Mean serum E concentration during DHT treatment was 1.7 ± 0.3 (standard error of the mean) pg/mL. Spinal, but not hip, bone density was significantly reduced by DHT vs. placebo treatment."

And here is a Ray quote discussing estrogen and bone density from Politics and Science: Suppression of Cancer Treatments...

"... especially when ultrasound technology exists that is more meaningful. It will actually tell you the strength of your bones, not just how dense they are. And in the Journal of the American Medical Association itself, someone published little graphs showing tremendous inaccuracy of the bone scan because of differences in fat and water in the tissues. And some people have a lot of fat in their bone marrow, and others have very little fat, but a lot of fluid. And estrogen, for example, affects the distribution of fat and fluid in your body. This technique – one of the reasons the bone scan is popular is that estrogen seems to increase bone density, where all through the early 60's and 70's, all of the evidence showed when you grind up the bones, they are not made more dense by estrogen. The estrogen causes calcium retention, but no increase of bone density. But the X-ray technique used now for scanning does sometimes give an apparent increase in bone density, but this publication shows that the fat-water artefact which can be influenced by estrogen could explain any apparent benefit. And since the ultrasound measures the strength as well as the density, there are many overwhelming arguments why nobody should ever have a bone scan. Besides being harmless, and meaningful and accurate, the ultrasound happens to stimulate bone growth, where X-rays accelerate bone loss."

 

[Wagner83]

Ok but that does not explain to me why many people experience issues with substances that inhibit aromatase a lot, even bioidentical steroids give these issues. The case of the aromatase deficient guy is pretty interesting, he had no issues with T but still suffered from osteoporosis .

 

[Herbie]

This is interesting I just googled aromatase deficient male.

 

[Xisca]

For me, it all just means that when something has no be not high, it does not mean it is good to have it low.

There are no enemies, only lack of balance.
Usually, the body maintains its balance, and when we interfere to correct it, this is not so easy to do such subtle things!
= not too much vitK, not too much mushrooms!

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Some of those are offered by idealabs and are potent (vitamin K2, estroban etc..), white button mushrooms in the right quantity are as well.

Thankfully I have found a relevant post.

I too have been taking Estroban for about 10 days. Woke up this morning with real eye pressure and pain looking around. My joints and muscles have also been feeling quite weird and I have been taking hard naps during the day.

I wonder if u have found any advice or solutions?

 

[Wagner83]

Thankfully I have found a relevant post.

I too have been taking Estroban for about 10 days. Woke up this morning with real eye pressure and pain looking around. My joints and muscles have also been feeling quite weird and I have been taking hard naps during the day.

I wonder if u have found any advice or solutions?

Not sure what you are asking for, but I'd drop estroban and if using it again I'd not do it daily. I just used it again after a very long time off, during the first week the results got better and better, , mood, energy and the rest were excellent, erection size went up , then the positive effects disappeared. WBM were also too potent at times, I don't think I have overblown estrogenic activity so I probably don't need these compounds that much.

 

[sladerunner69]

Yes I get bone/nerve pain as well, and feel better when I don't take too much aspirin/k2, vitamin e, or mushrooms.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Yes I get bone/nerve pain as well, and feel better when I don't take too much aspirin/k2, vitamin e, or mushrooms.

I believe that vitamin E/K are responsible. My eyes still hurt which is very odd and hopefully not percent. I am aware that K and E have very long half lifes, so I'll give it a few days.

 

[sladerunner69]

I believe that vitamin E/K are responsible. My eyes still hurt which is very odd and hopefully not percent. I am aware that K and E have very long half lifes, so I'll give it a few days.

Sometimes my eyes hurt or feel dry, I had chalked it up to using 500mw bright light at my desk, but maybe that is due to low estrogen as well...

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Sometimes my eyes hurt or feel dry, I had chalked it up to using 500mw bright light at my desk, but maybe that is due to low estrogen as well...

Need to get me some red light. Any reccomendations? At university and it's starting to get cold and dark.

 

[sladerunner69]

Need to get me some red light. Any reccomendations? At university and it's starting to get cold and dark.

Yes of course, I myself ahve run throught he whole gammut of different lights. I finally bought a There Bulb and have been quite happy with it- https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MPXVSU5?psc=1

It is a strong deep red color, though. Red is effective, but when I am working at my desk in the evening, it tends to be a bit TOO effective, and the red glow is strange, so instead I also have a clear infared heat lamp like thise- https://www.amazon.com/Bulbrite-250...qid=1506613389&sr=1-16&keywords=infrared+bulb the downside to this one being that it gives off heat so is only good during cold nights.


I've also used this pool bulbhttps://www.amazon.com/Satco-7007-P...qid=1506613527&sr=1-5&keywords=500w+pool+bulb (@haidut recommended this) but it is actually almost too bright!

I use "grower's" clamps and installed a rig high up on my bedroom walls. This way the light shines down on me, and not directly in my face/eyes. https://www.amazon.com/Woods-0166-B...&qid=1506613389&sr=1-7&keywords=infrared+bulb

 

[dookie]

you could argue that there are no real downsides to low estrogen. I would rather take bone-joint pain than depression/psychosis/edema/emotionality/anxiety/add-estrogenic-side-effect-here, any day of the week.

 

[Wagner83]

you could argue that there are no real downsides to low estrogen. I would rather take bone-joint pain than depression/psychosis/edema/emotionality/anxiety/add-estrogenic-side-effect-here, any day of the week.

Bone and nerve pain, loss of muscles size and strength as well as lack of emotions are nice when avoided.

 

[sladerunner69]

Bone and nerve pain, loss of muscles size and strength as well as lack of emotions are nice when avoided.

Loss of muscle size and strength as well? Interesting. IS that from reduced Nitric Oxide release? After PEating and taking measures too lower NO and serotonin I have not gotten pumps at the gym, which I am okay with.

Could you extrapolate on why estrogen woul lower muscle size? It seems that androgens are primarily repsonsible for muscle size, although it could be due to mainly nott he androgens themselves but their comeptition with glucocorticoid receptors across muscle tissue. I am not sure if estrogen plays a role in that.

 

[Wagner83]

I have had first time experience numerous times now with compounds which lower aromatazmania and lead to a sensation which I described at the time as the vertebraes being too close to each other, putting very unpleasant pressure on nerves (I have older posts on this). In the past I experienced a particularly bad spine issue with nerve problems and all, at the time I was experimenting with big doses of wbm. In that case the fibers were probably irritating, but since I noticed pretty similar issues at other times, I suspected that too low estrogens can lead to nerve problems in the spine for some. At the moment despite doing fine, having two to three easy bowel movements a day, clear tongue most of the time, good energy, drive, less water retention in the face I have started getting pretty similar "trapped" nerve issues (there are physical reasons like position, sitting etc, but something is exacerbating the problem).
Could lower estrogens simply decrease the water content of the intervertebral disks?
Intervertebral disc - Wikipedia

One effect of aging and disc degeneration is that the nucleus pulposus begins to dehydrate and the concentration of proteoglycans in the matrix decreases, thus limiting the ability of the disc to absorb shock. This general shrinking of disc size is partially responsible for the common decrease in height as humans age.

Maybe yes:
Intervertebral disc height in treated and untreated overweight post-menopausal women | Human Reproduction | Oxford Academic

RESULTS: The untreated menopausal group of women had the lowest total disc height (D1–D3: 1.95 0.31 cm). This was significantly lower than the pre-menopausal group D1–D3: 2.16 0.24 cm) and the hormone-treated group (2.2 0.26 cm) (P > 0.02). The 2nd intervertebral disc consistently maintained a significant difference between the untreated menopausal group (D2: 0.63 0.13) and the other two groups (pre-menopausal group (D2: 0.72 0.09 cm) and treated menopausal group (D2: 0.73 0.12 cm) (P > 0.02). CONCLUSIONS: Estrogen-replete women appear to maintain higher intervertebral discs compared to untreated post-menopausal women. The estrogenic milieu may be relevant because of the significant impact it has on the hydrophilic glycosaminoglycans, the water content, collagen and elastin of the intervertebral discs. The maintenance of adequate disc height may allow the intervertebral discs to retain their discoid shape and viscoelastic function, containing vertical forces which may threaten spinal architecture leading to vertebral body compression fractures.

Could it explain joint pain as well?

Ps: I just saw I had created this thread for the same reason. Please note that supporting estrogens is, most of the time, anti-Peat.

 

[Aymen]

hey can you talk about your behavior (mood, act , emotions ,etc) when you had estrogen deficiency ?

 

[mayweatherking]

how does this show low estrogen is bad? one study is showing supplementing with DHT, which is not recommended by ray anyway, which could have other effects outside of just lowering estrogen, or someone having osteoporosis, which i'm assuming is from not eating enough calcium or low vitamin D, which would be troublesome? i dont think these have to do with estrogen being low... it soudns like other stuff is going on