Downsides Of Low Estrogens

[schultz]

I have the symptoms and the serum levels of low estrogens.
I doubt tissue analysis would show otherwise. If I have the symptoms, it means that the tissue is being affected by low e2, doesn't it?

Someone with low serum e2 but symptoms of high e2 would benefit from such a tissue analysis, in all logic.

You are connecting certain symptoms with low blood estrogen, but that doesn't mean those symptoms are actually caused by a low whole body estrogen, just that you think they are. It is the simplest explanation however, based on the information that you have. You could legitimately have low estrogen, but it seems unlikely to me (unlikely, but possible I suppose).

Have you checked your other estrogen levels? Those can be used as material to make E2 inside of tissue. If you have low SHBG or something the estrogen may stay 'stuck' in there and not show up on a blood test (SHBG goes inside the cell and removes estrogen). Also fat in the blood can bind to SHBG making the SHBG unable to bind estrogen. Older women have low blood estrogen but high tissue estrogen. They also have low progesterone relative to estrogen and their lower level of estrogen actually has a greater estrogenic effect compared to a younger woman with high blood estrogen but also high progesterone. However you did say you had symptoms of low estrogen. What are your symptoms?

 

[Ihor]

@opethfeldt so, how did you know that your estradiol was low, through laboratory e2 testing?

 

[Mossy]

Yeah I don’t think estrogen can really be accurately measured with aspirin and sandwiches...

“Accurately” is the key word. Otherwise, is your position that there is zero legitimacy to the anti-estrogen effect of aspirin, and the pro-estrogen of PUFA and certain foods, as measured in an anecdotal fashion? For no doubt, many here have responses to foods and supps, outside the precision of clinical measuring and see value in bringing it before a group and discussing, Where I’m not certain what value your comment added.

 

[Goobz]

“Accurately” is the key word. Otherwise, is your position that there is zero legitimacy to the anti-estrogen effect of aspirin, and the pro-estrogen of PUFA and certain foods, as measured in an anecdotal fashion? For no doubt, many here have responses to foods and supps, outside the precision of clinical measuring and see value in bringing it before a group and discussing, Where I’m not certain what value your comment added.

Not at all, but that wasn't the question. The question was whether you could counter the anti estrogenic effects of aspirin with a high PUFA meal.

My point is there are way too many moving parts to make such simple calculations like that, with respect to effects on complex hormones. However people on forums like this make such judgements all the time. The value of my comment was, hopefully, to remind people that unfortunately things like hormones in the body are way more complicated than that, and it's not so simple to control your body with "aspirin decreases estrogen, PUFA increases it, therefore a high PUFA sandwich cancels out an aspirin."

I wrote out my comment quite quickly as I thought my point would be common sense and obvious, but apologies if it wasn't worded the best.

 

[TheBeard]

You are connecting certain symptoms with low blood estrogen, but that doesn't mean those symptoms are actually caused by a low whole body estrogen, just that you think they are. It is the simplest explanation however, based on the information that you have. You could legitimately have low estrogen, but it seems unlikely to me (unlikely, but possible I suppose).

Have you checked your other estrogen levels? Those can be used as material to make E2 inside of tissue. If you have low SHBG or something the estrogen may stay 'stuck' in there and not show up on a blood test (SHBG goes inside the cell and removes estrogen). Also fat in the blood can bind to SHBG making the SHBG unable to bind estrogen. Older women have low blood estrogen but high tissue estrogen. They also have low progesterone relative to estrogen and their lower level of estrogen actually has a greater estrogenic effect compared to a younger woman with high blood estrogen but also high progesterone. However you did say you had symptoms of low estrogen. What are your symptoms?

Oh I thought you were clear on my symptoms, as they are mentioned all over the forum and were the starting point for this debate, and supposedly for your rebutal too. How can you even form a rebutal without even being clear on that parameter?
That becomes a rebutal for the sake of rebutal only.

Once again then:
Poor libido
Smaller flaccing hang
Diminished penile sensitivity
Brain fog
Stiff and cracking joints
Non social mood

And let's also ignore the fact that 99% of people abusing AIs on AAS forums experience those same exact symptoms, and that those symptoms are alleviated by discontinuing said AIs or increasing aromatizable compound.
That couldn't be a proof that the symptoms are directly connected to low estrogens could it...

 

[Hairlosssucks]

Oh I thought you were clear on my symptoms, as they are mentioned all over the forum and were the starting point for this debate, and supposedly for your rebutal too. How can you even form a rebutal without even being clear on that parameter?
That becomes a rebutal for the sake of rebutal only.

Once again then:
Poor libido
Smaller flaccing hang
Diminished penile sensitivity
Brain fog
Stiff and cracking joints
Non social mood

And let's also ignore the fact that 99% of people abusing AIs on AAS forums experience those same exact symptoms, and that those symptoms are alleviated by discontinuing said AIs or increasing aromatizable compound.
That couldn't be a proof that the symptoms are directly connected to low estrogens could it...

Can pregnenlone supplementation fix low e2?

Will it be suppressive?

 

[schultz]

Oh I thought you were clear on my symptoms, as they are mentioned all over the forum and were the starting point for this debate, and supposedly for your rebutal too. How can you even form a rebutal without even being clear on that parameter?
That becomes a rebutal for the sake of rebutal only.

Once again then:
Poor libido
Smaller flaccing hang
Diminished penile sensitivity
Brain fog
Stiff and cracking joints
Non social mood

And let's also ignore the fact that 99% of people abusing AIs on AAS forums experience those same exact symptoms, and that those symptoms are alleviated by discontinuing said AIs or increasing aromatizable compound.
That couldn't be a proof that the symptoms are directly connected to low estrogens could it...

I knew a couple of them, but I don't always remember who has said what on this forum, especially if I am not that familiar with the person.

From what I remember, you took exemestane and possibly proviron (I don't quite remember) and now you think you have chronically low estrogen based off of a low blood level of E2 and various symptoms that you have kindly listed above. Is that essentially correct?

I am not really trying to debate (I don't feel like I am debating), but merely offering a differing opinion for people reading the thread, or forum in general. Is it possible that you have low estrogen and that is causing a bevy of negative symptoms for you (and others on the forum)? I suppose it's possible, but it doesn't seem to be in line with Ray's work and its overarching theme. However, I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the greatest understanding of Ray's work and have a long way to go.

I know reading, discussing and trying to understand Ray's work is becoming passé, but personally I still enjoy it.

Regarding AAS forums: I wouldn't say it's proof. Evidence maybe (and I stress maybe).

 

[TheBeard]

I knew a couple of them, but I don't always remember who has said what on this forum, especially if I am not that familiar with the person.

From what I remember, you took exemestane and possibly proviron (I don't quite remember) and now you think you have chronically low estrogen based off of a low blood level of E2 and various symptoms that you have kindly listed above. Is that essentially correct?

I am not really trying to debate (I don't feel like I am debating), but merely offering a differing opinion for people reading the thread, or forum in general. Is it possible that you have low estrogen and that is causing a bevy of negative symptoms for you (and others on the forum)? I suppose it's possible, but it doesn't seem to be in line with Ray's work and its overarching theme. However, I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the greatest understanding of Ray's work and have a long way to go.

I know reading, discussing and trying to understand Ray's work is becoming passé, but personally I still enjoy it.

Regarding AAS forums: I wouldn't say it's proof. Evidence maybe (and I stress maybe).

So it's fine to take one man's work as evidence on a forum that bears his name, but hundreds of anecdotal evidence pointing in the same direction couldn't constitute proof?
You know not everything in life comes from a lab right?

 

[schultz]

So it's fine to take one man's work as evidence on a forum that bears his name, but hundreds of anecdotal evidence pointing in the same direction couldn't constitute proof?

Yes exactly. I value Ray's work more than random anecdotal experience. I don't consider anecdotal evidence to be very valuable at all. There are too many variables.

You know not everything in life comes from a lab right?

That's a fair point. Ancient cultures were able to figure out remarkable things that 'labs' only discovered relatively recently.

I do think Ray actually uses anecdotal experience as evidence to a degree since he's always communicating with people and considering things. I trust him more than I trust myself to be able to sieve through that type of information and make it cohesive. He may not be right about everything but I think he has done a brilliant job tying various aspects of the organism together and pointing out where he thinks the mainstream has it wrong. I think the real fault lies in my understanding of his work and biology in general and I am probably making assumptions, etc. based on what I think I know. Let's put it this way, I've been wrong more times than I've been right about diet and nutrition. I think a lot of people on the forum probably feel the same way as we've all tried several crazy diet trends and at the time thought we couldn't be wrong.

 

[Dave Clark]

Since it seems to be understood that boron raises estrogen, why not just take some boron to prevent low estrogen?

 

[Andman]

So it's fine to take one man's work as evidence on a forum that bears his name, but hundreds of anecdotal evidence pointing in the same direction couldn't constitute proof?
You know not everything in life comes from a lab right?

Agreed, them AAS boards are great.
Have you tries using DHEA around 50mg/day? seen quite a few reports from bodybuilders that swear by it for quickly raising E2

 

[Peatogenic]

I noticed the emotionless thing when I started Pansterone. But I've never had the other symptoms, like joint pain (and I used to do very high AI).

 

[schultz]

Since it seems to be understood that boron raises estrogen, why not just take some boron to prevent low estrogen?

Exactly. Or eat PUFA, or injure yourself, stay up late in the dark. Basically do the opposite of what Ray says to do. Estrogen is ubiquitous.

Actually (jokes aside) yeast might be a viable way to get some estrogen if somebody is seriously wanting to increase their estrogen. You'd get vitamins along with it too. Brewers yeast or something like that.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I’m doing 2mg exemastane per day with 3mg metergoline, occasional boron,

5 - 10mg DHEA and about 10mg progesterone topically.

100mg pregnenolone orally most days.

feeling awesome.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

@ecstatichamster Are you taking Examenstane to counteract what?

 

[BeHealthy]

After suffering weird bone/nerve pain from compounds that lower aromatase I became curious in the negative effects of low estrogens. Thanks to @Dante for the last one. Feel free to add more and discuss :

I've been trying to figure out the cause of this phenomena for some time as well. We know that estrogen and cortisol are chemicals that rise under times of stress to ensure that the body survives when the body is lacking the necessary energy, hormones, nutrients, etc. that it needs to perform. Thus, perhaps when we use powerful aromatase inhibitors to lower estrogen/cortisol this is good, but the problem becomes that we are not increasing the deficient energy, hormones, nutrient (even lifestyle) needs that caused the estrogen/cortisol to rise in the first place.

In other words, the cause of the aching joints and other necessary symptoms of low estrogen is not low estrogen, but low estrogen accompanied by deficiencies in energy, hormones, nutrients, etc. (which the estrogen was high to offset in the first place).

So the aching joints could just mean that the high estrogen was hiding the symptoms of osteoporosis due to a calcium defifiency (for example), and when the estrogen is no longer there, the calcium deficiency and the associated inflammation is unopposed. Or similarly, the low lethargy experienced during low estrogen could be an ATP deficiency, and the low libido a dopamine deficiency...

My criticism for my own view is that low estrogen should equal high androgens, which would in-turn protect (and do a better job at protecting) the body against symptoms that would come from deficiencies in energy, other hormones, nutrients, etc.

*However, my key point here (I guess) is that it could be that low estrogen/low cortisol expects that all other requirements (energy, hormones, nutrients, etc) are in place and on point, so its not going to worry about those (kind of like what we all know about the problems which arise when we increase thyroid but then don't eat enough food to match our increased energy demands).

Edit: Another way of putting all this is that if estrogen is rising for a reason that is unresolved - when we lower it, it can no longer address that problem, and the andgrogens that rise when estrogen decreases may not be in the business of dealing with whatever estrogen was rising to deal with in the first place.

I could be completely off here, but just trying to participate in our collective solution.

 

[BeHealthy]

Edit to my above post: I just listened to the interview linked below with Dr. Peat - If I'm interpreting him correctly, low Cortisol symptoms are a reflection of deficiencies in Progesterone, Pregnenolone, and DHEA.

Ray Peat Q&A - Insulin Resistance, Vegans, Low Cortisol, Bone Broth, And Coconut! W/ Jodelle
(18:05)

Thanks for the post @Inaut

Since Cortisol, Estrogen, and Aldosterone tend to rise and fall together, perhaps the symptoms of low estrogen are the same. Am I off here?

 

[jtoro]

Yeah, it's really not a fun place to be. It took weeks for me to recover. Life was pretty much on hold during that period. I dropped the exemestane. It's too difficult to dose because of the suicidal inhibition and I'm prone to crashing my estrogen to begin with. Were you still supplementing testosterone during your recovery period?

What did you do to recover?