Doubts About Eggshell Calcium?

Wilfrid

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Thanks for your quick reply, Edward.
To tell the truth, I didn't really pay attention to the tissue under my nails, I was focusing only at my nails ridges during the time I took the wheat germ extract and the Eidon supp.
A french doctor called Paul Carton noticed with his tuberculosis patient that when the tissue under the nails become pinker the cellular respiration and patient's health both improved greatly....
For the calcium, I will take a more closer look to calcium carbonate and particulary to eggshell calcium as I got , like ksemen, some worries about his complete digestion and assimilation....
For the food, you're right....If I eat rice or potatoes I need to eat them with fat and gelatin and then I have no bloating nor any GI problem....
The only grain that give me no pb is......WHEAT!
When I eat pasta, bread, cakes or whatever you want made with refined wheat I have absolutely no GI distress....I got almost my entire colon removed three years ago, and I can fell right away when a food is not properly digested as I can have gas or bloating within two to three hours after eating....
With wheat, I feel more energized than with rice or tubers...And I feel even more better when eating pasta (homemade) made with Manitoba flour ( very high gluten and thus very high protein flour that I buy in Italy) and with cake (also homemade) made with, what we called in France, gruau flour ( basically the french version of the italian manitoba....).
What I learned after few research is that wheat is a very good source of TMG that could also be very good for people with high histamine.....Anyway,again thanks for your help.
 

Edward

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Mittir said:
It does not give hydrochloric acid as you claimed.
Given the observations in these papers I would say that the reaction I described is in fact taking place. Especially given the fact that urinary and fecal calcium excretion increased. I would expect this given that calcium oxide would precipitate from this reaction.

The mineral exchanges in man

Haldane, Hill and Luck (17) assume that the diuretic action of calcium chloride is the result of an acidosis and Gambel, Ross and Tisdall (14) have shown that the acidosis is caused by the greater absorption of the chlorine ion than of the calcium ion. This is in accord with the work of Gamble, Blackfan and Hamilton (13) who believe the mechanism of the action of ammonium chloride and calcium chloride to be similar, both producing an acidosis. The ammonia-forming mechanism of the kidney (25) and the increase in acidity of the urine are not sufficient to compensate entirely for the hydrochloric acid formed from chlorine ingested; hence base is withdrawn from the blood and tissues, chiefly sodium and potassium. Results in agreement with these have been reported by Linder (19) following the administration of hydrochloric acid to normal men and to patients with nephritis.

The urinary calcium excretion was also increased, either due to parathormone or to the administration of an acid-forming calcium salt.

The ingestion of 9.8 and 13.0 gm. of calcium chloride per diem by the normal men for five-day periods led to marked increase in the urinary and fecal calcium excretion and at least temporarily to positive calcium balances. In the nephritic subject where the ingestion of 2.2 gm. per diem of calcium chloride was accompanied by intramuscular injection of large doses of parathormone, urinary calcium excretion was increased but the quantity excreted was much less than that excreted by the normal men during the control period. Fecal calcium in his case was excessive and resulted in a distinctly negative calcium balance.

A study of the diuretic action of acid producing salts

According to the conceptions of Fischer (5), a diuresis from CaCl2 would be referred to Ca" which, having in some way escaped the opposing effect of the Cl' ion, operates as base against an increased acidity of the body fluids regarded as responsible for the pathological retention of water. That actually quite the inverse of such an effect follows ingestion of CaCl2 has been demonstrated by Gamble, Ross and Tisdall (6) and by Gamble and Ross (7) in their studies of the therapeutic action of several of the agents used in the treatment of infantile tetany. They found CaCl2 to be in large part, from the point of view of acid-base metabolism an acid substance. Following its ingestion there occurs an increase in the titratable acidity of the urine and a rise in urnary ammonia. The extension of these two factors together amounts usually to about one-half the equivalence of the Cl' content of the ingested salt, so that to this extent, as regards adjustments necessary in the body fluids and in the process of acid excretion, CaCl2 taken orally is in effect HCl.
 

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Edward

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Wilfrid said:
A french doctor called Paul Carton noticed with his tuberculosis patient that when the tissue under the nails become pinker the cellular respiration and patient's health both improved greatly
Thank you Wilfrid, I had never heard of this doctor before. When I see a medical doctor mention a detail like this it makes me think they are approaching the body rationally.
Wilfrid said:
I got almost my entire colon removed three years ago
There is some literature on the absorption of different types of calcium in people who have had parts of their colon removed I will look through my hard drive and post the relevant ones. From what I remember it seemed that as long as the calcium was taken with a meal it absorbed completely. But I will double check because most calcium is absorbed in the intestines.
 

Edward

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ksemen said:
I am just curious what kind of doctor are you, you do autopsies on people?

A scientist in the field of histotechnology. It is not required to have a M.D. in order to perform autopsy. The dead are dead. You only need a M.D. if you are in a position where you can potentially harm a live person. I worked in that field for 6 years.
 
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BaconBits

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Edward, what do you think about magnesium oxide. Is it any good, some people are reporting good results on iherb.com, but it is a strong laxative. What do the studies show,there is something circulating on the internet about it having 4% absorption rate? What about magnesium carbonate?
 

kiran

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Edward said:
If you click the link the full paper should be available, if not let me know. If it makes you feel any better, ksemen, out of the the hundreds of autopsies and gross examinations of the gastrointestinal tract I've done I've never seen any bits of eggshell.

FYI, I have personally experienced bits of eggshell in feces, so it does happen.
 

jyb

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kiran said:
FYI, I have personally experienced bits of eggshell in feces, so it does happen.

Erm, how would you notice them? Once powdered, the bits are near flour sized particles which I wouldn't expect to be visible once mixed homogeneously to other matter.
 

kiran

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jyb said:
kiran said:
FYI, I have personally experienced bits of eggshell in feces, so it does happen.

Erm, how would you notice them? Once powdered, the bits are near flour sized particles which I wouldn't expect to be visible once mixed homogeneously to other matter.

Perhaps I didn't grind it up fine enough then.
 

Edward

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Wilfrid said:
What do you recommend for someone with crohn's disease as the best source of supplemental calcium?

Wilfrid, I came across this study this morning:

Zinc supplementation tightens "leaky gut" in Crohn's disease
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1wyy-g ... sp=sharing

OBJECTIVES: Small intestinal permeability is often increased in patients with Crohn's disease and may be pathogenic for clinical relapses. No effective prophylactic treatment is available for these patients. The aim of this study was to ascertain whether zinc supplementation may improve intestinal permeability.

METHODS: We studied 12 patients with quiescent Crohn's disease who had been in remission for at least 3 months and had increased intestinal permeability on two separate occasions within the last 2 months. Patients received oral zinc sulfate supplements (110 mg three times a day) for 8 weeks and were followed-up for 12 months thereafter to monitor relapses.

RESULTS: We found that the lactulose/mannitol ratio was significantly higher before supplementation than after (0.041 +/- 0.003 versus 0.026 +/- 0.005). During follow-up, 10 patients had normal intestinal permeability and did not relapse; of the remaining two who had increased intestinal permeability, one relapsed.

CONCLUSIONS: Our findings show that zinc supplementation can resolve permeability alterations in patients with Crohn's disease in remission. Improving intestinal barrier function may contribute to reduce the risk of relapse in Crohn's disease.

I don't recommend zinc supplementation, and if I did I certainly wouldn't recommend 110mg taken 3 times a day. That is insane. However eating seafood seems like a good compromise.
 

Wilfrid

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Edward said:
Wilfrid said:
What do you recommend for someone with crohn's disease as the best source of supplemental calcium?

Wilfrid, I came across this study this morning:

Zinc supplementation tightens "leaky gut" in Crohn's disease
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1wyy-g ... sp=sharing

OBJECTIVES: Small intestinal permeability is often increased in patients with Crohn's disease and may be pathogenic for clinical relapses. No effective prophylactic treatment is available for these patients. The aim of this study was to ascertain whether zinc supplementation may improve intestinal permeability.

METHODS: We studied 12 patients with quiescent Crohn's disease who had been in remission for at least 3 months and had increased intestinal permeability on two separate occasions within the last 2 months. Patients received oral zinc sulfate supplements (110 mg three times a day) for 8 weeks and were followed-up for 12 months thereafter to monitor relapses.

RESULTS: We found that the lactulose/mannitol ratio was significantly higher before supplementation than after (0.041 +/- 0.003 versus 0.026 +/- 0.005). During follow-up, 10 patients had normal intestinal permeability and did not relapse; of the remaining two who had increased intestinal permeability, one relapsed.

CONCLUSIONS: Our findings show that zinc supplementation can resolve permeability alterations in patients with Crohn's disease in remission. Improving intestinal barrier function may contribute to reduce the risk of relapse in Crohn's disease.

I don't recommend zinc supplementation, and if I did I certainly wouldn't recommend 110mg taken 3 times a day. That is insane. However eating seafood seems like a good compromise.

Thanks, Edward for the research.
Unfortunately, I can't eat shellfish, which are a really good source of zinc, as I always ended with red patches on my inner thighs eachtime I ate them :cry:
But I will try the zinc sulfate stuff with a lower amount ( may be 5 mg) during a month or less.
I think that RP also mentioned to me that either zinc sulfate or zinc gluconate was the form to be OK to supplement with.
I will also try to increase B6 ( the P5P form in physiological dosage around 2/3 mg) with the zinc and see....
I read that there is a kind of "synergy" between those 2 (may be also manganese) in Carl C Pfeiffer works and in George Waston's book" Nutrition and your mind".
 

Rayser

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Wilfrid said:
But I will try the zinc sulfate stuff with a lower amount ( may be 5 mg) during a month or less.
I think that RP also mentioned to me that either zinc sulfate or zinc gluconate was the form to be OK to supplement with.
I will also try to increase B6 ( the P5P form in physiological dosage around 2/3 mg) with the zinc and see....
I read that there is a kind of "synergy" between those 2 (may be also manganese) in Carl C Pfeiffer works and in George Waston's book" Nutrition and your mind".

Wilfrid - I strongly agree with Edward. I seriously harmed myself using zinc supplements (15mg/day, zinc picolinate, other ingredients: rice flour, gelatine, magnesium stearate) for two weeks. My symptoms became so severe that I contacted Ray Peat and he told me:

"zinc probably irritated your intestine, resulting in the absorption of toxins and
the release of increased amounts of nitric oxide and serotonin, histamine, etc."

There is zinc in veal liver, cocoa, dark chocolate and lamb.
 

jyb

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Rayser said:
Wilfrid said:
But I will try the zinc sulfate stuff with a lower amount ( may be 5 mg) during a month or less.
I think that RP also mentioned to me that either zinc sulfate or zinc gluconate was the form to be OK to supplement with.
I will also try to increase B6 ( the P5P form in physiological dosage around 2/3 mg) with the zinc and see....
I read that there is a kind of "synergy" between those 2 (may be also manganese) in Carl C Pfeiffer works and in George Waston's book" Nutrition and your mind".

Wilfrid - I strongly agree with Edward. I seriously harmed myself using zinc supplements (15mg/day, zinc picolinate, other ingredients: rice flour, gelatine, magnesium stearate) for two weeks. My symptoms became so severe that I contacted Ray Peat and he told me:

"zinc probably irritated your intestine, resulting in the absorption of toxins and
the release of increased amounts of nitric oxide and serotonin, histamine, etc."

There is zinc in veal liver, cocoa, dark chocolate and lamb.

Is it due to the amount you used? 15mg is what is included in a couple oysters. However, you're using a supplemental form so absorption could be higher (or lower), and also you used it every day.
 

nwo2012

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jyb said:
Rayser said:
Wilfrid said:
But I will try the zinc sulfate stuff with a lower amount ( may be 5 mg) during a month or less.
I think that RP also mentioned to me that either zinc sulfate or zinc gluconate was the form to be OK to supplement with.
I will also try to increase B6 ( the P5P form in physiological dosage around 2/3 mg) with the zinc and see....
I read that there is a kind of "synergy" between those 2 (may be also manganese) in Carl C Pfeiffer works and in George Waston's book" Nutrition and your mind".

Wilfrid - I strongly agree with Edward. I seriously harmed myself using zinc supplements (15mg/day, zinc picolinate, other ingredients: rice flour, gelatine, magnesium stearate) for two weeks. My symptoms became so severe that I contacted Ray Peat and he told me:

"zinc probably irritated your intestine, resulting in the absorption of toxins and
the release of increased amounts of nitric oxide and serotonin, histamine, etc."

There is zinc in veal liver, cocoa, dark chocolate and lamb.

Is it due to the amount you used? 15mg is what is included in a couple oysters. However, you're using a supplemental form so absorption could be higher (or lower), and also you used it every day.

Using a metal oxide is nothing like using a food source such as oysters, hence the issue. I doubt eating a lot of oysters would cause this issue.
 

Wilfrid

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Rayser said:
Wilfrid said:
But I will try the zinc sulfate stuff with a lower amount ( may be 5 mg) during a month or less.
I think that RP also mentioned to me that either zinc sulfate or zinc gluconate was the form to be OK to supplement with.
I will also try to increase B6 ( the P5P form in physiological dosage around 2/3 mg) with the zinc and see....
I read that there is a kind of "synergy" between those 2 (may be also manganese) in Carl C Pfeiffer works and in George Waston's book" Nutrition and your mind".

Wilfrid - I strongly agree with Edward. I seriously harmed myself using zinc supplements (15mg/day, zinc picolinate, other ingredients: rice flour, gelatine, magnesium stearate) for two weeks. My symptoms became so severe that I contacted Ray Peat and he told me:

"zinc probably irritated your intestine, resulting in the absorption of toxins and
the release of increased amounts of nitric oxide and serotonin, histamine, etc."

There is zinc in veal liver, cocoa, dark chocolate and lamb.

You're right. I'm not gonna take the zinc supp and will emphasize food instead, like you and Edward suggested.
There is certainly no magic bullet in supplements even if sometimes those could be a good support.
Plus, with my crohn's, it's more safe to use food source of vitamins/minerals.
You and Edward made me change my mind about the zinc stuff.
 

Johnny

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If calcium citrate is bad for us, is it perferable to consume the eggshell powder without soaking it in lemon juice?
 

jyb

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Johnny said:
If calcium citrate is bad for us, is it perferable to consume the eggshell powder without soaking it in lemon juice?

I once consumed both eggshell powder and OJ as part of a meal. The laxative effect of the citrate that must have formed was bit too...effective.
 

Rayser

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nwo2012 said:
jyb said:
Rayser said:
Wilfrid said:
But I will try the zinc sulfate stuff with a lower amount ( may be 5 mg) during a month or less.
I think that RP also mentioned to me that either zinc sulfate or zinc gluconate was the form to be OK to supplement with.
I will also try to increase B6 ( the P5P form in physiological dosage around 2/3 mg) with the zinc and see....
I read that there is a kind of "synergy" between those 2 (may be also manganese) in Carl C Pfeiffer works and in George Waston's book" Nutrition and your mind".

Wilfrid - I strongly agree with Edward. I seriously harmed myself using zinc supplements (15mg/day, zinc picolinate, other ingredients: rice flour, gelatine, magnesium stearate) for two weeks. My symptoms became so severe that I contacted Ray Peat and he told me:

"zinc probably irritated your intestine, resulting in the absorption of toxins and
the release of increased amounts of nitric oxide and serotonin, histamine, etc."

There is zinc in veal liver, cocoa, dark chocolate and lamb.

Is it due to the amount you used? 15mg is what is included in a couple oysters. However, you're using a supplemental form so absorption could be higher (or lower), and also you used it every day.

Using a metal oxide is nothing like using a food source such as oysters, hence the issue. I doubt eating a lot of oysters would cause this issue.

Sorry for the late answer, Wilfried! Nwo2012 is absolutely right (btw - have you read Peat's newsletter regarding the "new world disorder"?) The problem was the supplement. I have been eating 12 oysters a day for 2 months (don't ask how much that cost me!) and had no troubles at all.
Peat also send me some studies connecting zinc supplements with a higher incidence of breast cancer. He mentioned that I probably irritated my stomach very badly by using those supplements. I asked if he was talking about these specific supplements and if there were any good and safe once. "Oysters are a good and safe source for zinc and for copper" was the answer.
 

charlie

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Rayser, are you doing this to build up your stores? Or do you think you are burning that much? Just wondering why so much.
 

jyb

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I wonder whether those precautions apply to (dry) powdered forms of food (like liver or oysters).
 

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