Doubts About Eggshell Calcium?

Discussion in 'Calcium' started by BaconBits, Apr 26, 2013.

  1. BaconBits

    BaconBits Member

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    Today i bought eggs on the market and grinded them in coffee grinder to almost flour size particles. The I tested the solubility in 6% vinegar, if 5% is around ph 2.5 then 6% should be closer to ph 1.99 of stomach acid. But after 1/2 hour there was still some eggshell calcium on the bottom of the vinegar, around 10-25% somewhere.

    Now I have my doubts about this calcium, what if the unreacted calcium gets through to the small intestines and gets absorbed into the bloodstream, possibly blocking veins or even contributing to heart attack. If you eat a large meal you can get ph even higher to 3% and no eggshell calcium will get digested.

    I wrote to Ray Peat but he says than stomach acid should disolve it all. I dont know, what do you think about it. How long do you grind the eggshels and to what particle size. Could larger particle size be better so the undigested calcium wont get aborsbed in the small intestines?
     
  2. Edward

    Edward Member

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    For simplicity I'll just use calcium carbonate but eggshell also contains calcium phosphate and magnesium carbonate and other traces of minerals and proteins and of course stomach acid also contains potassium chloride and sodium chloride.

    acetic acid + calcium carbonate -> calcium acetate + water + carbon dioxide
    2CH3CO2H + CaCO3 -> Ca(CH3COO)2 + H2O + CO2

    calcium carbonate + hydrochloric acid -> calcium chloride + carbon dioxide + water
    CaCO3 + 2HCl -> CaCl2 + CO2 + H2O

    Both reactions are going to leave a precipitate.

    Both forms of the calcium are biologically beneficial. I don't remember which form it was but one form reduced aluminum absorption while the common supplement form, calcium citrate, enhanced absorption of aluminum.

    Google Scholar search for "calcium acetate", gastro
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22 ... _sdt=0%2C5

    Google Scholar search for "calcium chloride", gastro
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start ... as_sdt=0,5

    If you are meaning there are bits of actual whole eggshell left and you are sure what is left isn't the precipitate from the reaction, the bits possibly could be a gut irritant but I've never come across any evidence of that, but, I haven't looked that hard either. Removing the inner membrane of the shell will help so that they grind to a finer powder.

    There was a roomer somewhere that if you ground calcium carbonate too much that the heat generated from the friction would cause the calcium carbonate to undergo thermal decomposition turning into calcium oxide and releasing CO2. I know of no coffee grinder that can approach or sustain a temperature greater than 825 degrees Celsius (1,517 Fahrenheit) without melting in your hand.
     
  3. jyb

    jyb Member

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    I think ksemen had in mind the possibility of endotoxemia, where bit of eggshell would remain, whether whole or as a precipitate, and these fine bits might occasionally go directly through the gut wall. I believe RP wrote about this for the case of drug fillers like silica or microcrystalline cellulose.
     
  4. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Certain salts of calcium can induce inflammation e.g. pyrophosphate, triphosphate, oxalate, and tartrate forms, by irritating the gut and allowing existing endotoxin to pass through. But it is because pyrophosphate, triphosphate, oxalate, and tartrate all happen to be irritants on their own. Microcrystalline cellulose on the other hand is food for Gram-negative bacteria which produce endotoxin. So if you took calcium in one of those forms and the pill was mixed with microcrystalline cellulose then endotoxema could occur. Some of the micronized bits of the calcium salt could also possibly get through causing other systematic inflammation as well.

    Perhaps, if you had existing inflammation a bit of eggshell could get through much like starch can. But even starch eventually gets passed. And the the forms of calcium produced from eggshell in the stomach happen to be anti-inflammatory so the bit would have to be big enough not to be completely broke down and small enough to pass through the gut barrier into a capillary. If the bit got into the capillary, blood is mostly water, and calcium chloride reacts with water to form calcium oxide and hydrochloric acid.

    calcium chloride + water -> calcium oxide + hydrochloric acid
    CaCl2 + H2O -> CaO + 2HCl

    Hydrochloric acid is corrosive and there have been cases of hydrochloric acid poisoning from systematic poisoning but not by this mechanism we are discussing. So if the bit gets through it is either going to block the capillary immediately and it could atrophy the capillary leaving the bit which would dissolve or if the bit got past the capillary it would dissolve on it's way to wherever it was going and release an insignificant amount of HCl. More damage is done just by breathing. In order for the bit to get anywhere where it would cause something significant the bit would have to be bigger in which case it would have a hard time getting through into the bloodstream.

    If this scenario where to happen I would suggest the person was born for it to happen.
     
  5. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Additionally:

    "crystals" being the eggshell.
     
  6. Rayser

    Rayser Member

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    I just love this post, Edward. I hardly ever enjoyed reading anyone besides Ray Peat that much.
     
  7. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    That looks like a scarey scenario. Do you have any source for that information?
    I did some googling and found out that doctors use aqueous solution of calcium chloride as intravenous
    injection to treat heart condition and magnesium toxicity. It is bit confusing for me. Can you please elaborate on that.

    source :http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/lookup.cfm?setid=2485ebfa-2815-4296-ab8b-8faff06b0bf2

    The equation you used is different than the one i found in this university website

    CaCl2 (s) ---water----> Ca2+ (aq) + 2 Cl- (aq)

    source: http://www.chem.memphis.edu/bridson/Fun ... 3a1100.htm

    Is it possible that both equations are right or one of these equation is wrong?

    Thank you for getting Ray Peat's response on egg shell powder.

    Charlie, it would be good idea to add RP's comment to his email depository.
     
  8. OP
    BaconBits

    BaconBits Member

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    You got something wrong. Yes, when calcium carbonate reacts with stomach acid it forms very soluble calcium chloride, and calcium chloride because of its solubility could not block veins.

    What I am talking about is if unreacted calcium carbonate small particles get absorbed, because of lack of HCl or too much juice drank with a meal. Calcium carbonate is not soluble in water or blood and the only way to get it out of the system is through the kidneys. I emailed some doctor who could know more about it. But RP seems to think because it is embedded in protein matrix it is OK.

    For now I wil be taking calcium citrate, I dont see any difference between carbonate, because even carbonate cannot get absorbed, it changes to calcium chloride in the stomach. Also there are almost no studies on eggshell calcium and absolutely no long term studies on the eggshell calcium supplementation, who knows?
     
  9. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Both equations are correct, however, they are describing to different processes.

    Mittir, it was satire.

    For magneisum toxicity from magnesium sulfate calcium chloride reacts with magnesium sulfate to produce magnesium chloride and sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid produced is what causes some of the side effects.
     
  10. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Calcium absorption and achlorhydria
    http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/4000241


    Defective absorption of calcium has been thought to exist in patients with achlorhydria. I compared absorption of calcium in its carbonate form with that in a pH-adjusted citrate form in a group of 11 fasting patients with achlorhydria and in 9 fasting normal subjects. Fractional calcium absorption was measured by a modified double-isotope procedure with 0.25 g of calcium used as the carrier. Mean calcium absorption (+/- S.D.) in the patients with achlorhydria was 0.452 +/- 0.125 for citrate and 0.042 +/- 0.021 for carbonate (P less than 0.0001). Fractional calcium absorption in the normal subjects was 0.243 +/- 0.049 for citrate and 0.225 +/- 0.108 for carbonate (not significant). Absorption of calcium from carbonate in patients with achlorhydria was significantly lower than in the normal subjects and was lower than absorption from citrate in either group; absorption from citrate in those with achlorhydria was significantly higher than in the normal subjects, as well as higher than absorption from carbonate in either group. Administration of calcium carbonate as part of a normal breakfast resulted in completely normal absorption in the achlorhydric subjects. These results indicate that calcium absorption from carbonate is impaired in achlorhydria under fasting conditions. Since achlorhydria is common in older persons, calcium carbonate may not be the ideal dietary supplement.

    ksemen, I going out and looking for pictures to take of canned oysters for another member on this forum. When I return I will sift through my hard drive, there are numerous studies showing increased calcium carbonate absorption with a meal verses without. But you are also worried about an actual bit of eggshell I will try to help you to understand the impossibility of that.
     
  11. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    Do you have any credible source for this equation?. I have only seen this form of equation in yahoo answers and chacha Q/A. and they did not cite any source. If this equation is correct then intravenous injection of calcium chloride aqueous solution will have hydrochloric acid in it. It does not make any sense to inject someone with hydrochloric acid to increase calcium level. This injection is also used in hypocalcemia.
     
  12. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Pharmacuitically hydrochloric acid is used to adjust the pH of solutions. There are number of situations where it becomes useful in that sense. Intravenous HCl has been used in cases treat things such as alkalosis. HCl poisoning is a bit different. It can be useful in some circumstances and in others harmful.

    Google Scholar search for intravenous hydrochloric acid
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en ... 5&as_sdtp=
     
  13. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Mittir, there is no source, it is something you learn how to do in a chemistry class or book. That is beyond the scope of this forum.
     
  14. Edward

    Edward Member

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    These studies and the last should clear up any confusion regarding the role of pH or HCl.

    An evaluation of the importance of gastric acid secretion in the absorption of dietary calcium
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC425063/

    Since calcium solubility is a prerequisite to calcium absorption, and since solubility of calcium is highly pH-dependent, it has been generally assumed that gastric acid secretion and gastric acidity play an important role in the intestinal absorption of calcium from ingested food or calcium salts such as CaCO3. To evaluate this hypothesis, we developed a method wherein net gastrointestinal absorption of calcium can be measured after ingestion of a single meal. A large dose of cimetidine, which markedly reduced gastric acid secretion, had no effect on calcium absorption in normal subjects, and an achlorhydric patient with pernicious anemia absorbed calcium normally. This was true regardless of the major source of dietary calcium (i.e., milk, insoluble calcium carbonate, or soluble calcium citrate). Moreover, calcium absorption after CaCO3 ingestion was the same when intragastric contents were maintained at pH 7.4 (by in vivo titration) as when intragastric pH was 3.0. On the basis of these results, we conclude that gastric acid secretion and gastric acidity do not normally play a role in the absorption of dietary calcium. Other possible mechanisms by which the gastrointestinal tract might solubilize ingested calcium complexes and salts are discussed.

    Gastric Acidity, Atrophic Gastritis, and Calcium Absorption
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

    The deleterious effects of increased gastric pH on calcium absorption from calcium carbonate supplements were observed about 25 years ago. Increasing use of calcium supplements, especially by the elderly, has raised questions about bioavailability from various calcium sources. Decreased gastric acidity is common in the elderly and in patients taking antiulcer medications. A critical review of the available human studies that have investigated the role of gastric acidity in calcium bioavailability suggests that the effects of increased gastric pH are only apparent when poorly soluble calcium salts are taken after an overnight fast. Soluble calcium sources, such as calcium citrate and calcium from milk, are absorbed normally in elderly subjects with atrophic gastritis. Moreover, calcium carbonate, a relatively insoluble calcium salt, is well absorbed in atrophic gastritis patients if administered with a meal. In order to maximize calcium bioavailability, elderly subjects should increase their calcium intakes to at least recommended levels, preferably by increasing milk consumption. When calcium supplements are used to augment dietary calcium sources, a highly soluble source should be of benefit or calcium carbonate may be taken with a meal.

    Calcium absorption in elderly subjects on high- and low-fiber diets: effect of gastric acidity
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/53/6/1480.short

    In vitro studies suggest that the effect of fiber in inhibiting calcium absorption is pH dependent. In nine normal, elderly control subjects and eight elderly subjects with achlorhydria, 47Ca was ingested with three test meals: a low-fiber meal (0.5 g dietary fiber), a high-fiber meal (10.5 g), and a high-fiber meal with 120 mL of 0.1 mol HC/L. In control subjects calcium retention, measured in a whole-body counter, was 25.7 +/- 4.0% (mean +/- SD) with the low-fiber meal, 19.1 +/- 1.9% with the high-fiber meal (P less than 0.002 vs low fiber), and 18.9 +/- 3.3% with the high-fiber-plus-acid meal (P less than 0.002 vs low fiber, NS vs high fiber). Calcium absorption in achlorhydric subjects was not different from control subjects: 26.2 +/- 8.0% with low fiber, 19.6 +/- 4.1% with high fiber (P less than 0.04 vs low fiber), and 21.0 +/- 5.8% with high fiber plus acid (P less than 0.04 vs low fiber, NS vs high fiber). We conclude that, in humans, the reduction in calcium absorption with high fiber intake is unaffected by gastric pH.
     
  15. OP
    BaconBits

    BaconBits Member

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    That is weird, calcium carbonate is absorbed even without functioning stomach acid. Really interesting.
    This would be interesting to know:"Other possible mechanisms by which the gastrointestinal tract might solubilize ingested calcium complexes and salts are discussed.".
     
  16. Edward

    Edward Member

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    If you click the link the full paper should be available, if not let me know. If it makes you feel any better, ksemen, out of the the hundreds of autopsies and gross examinations of the gastrointestinal tract I've done I've never seen any bits of eggshell. But I have seen a lot of fiber, corn, bean casings, hair, etc. And I have seen starch under the microscope on multiple occasions. And as a side note I have seen that most people have had tiny pituitary tumors because anything bigger would be symptomatic and usually there is no history. A lot of stressed people. Don't get stressed about the eggshells.

    I do think that citrate forms of calcium should be avoided, if anything eggshell with save you money, but you can buy micronized calcium carbonate if you must. I have seen several studies that show that calcium citrate can enhance the absorption of some toxic metals. For example as I mentioned earlier aluminum.
     
  17. Wilfrid

    Wilfrid Member

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    Hi Edward,

    Very interesting post.
    What do you recommend for someone with crohn's disease as the best source of supplemental calcium?
    I do have some issues with histamine (so fermented cheese are often problematic for me and I have a really hard time with milk (which is not an histamine liberating food per se) even at low dose....).So meeting my calcium requirement is hard.
    In a previous post, I spoke about Eidon ionic minerals ( I took both bone support and multiple) and I have seen huge improvement in my nails health ( the vertical ridges and some pitted nails that I used to have are now mostly gone after taking those products for almost two months now...)
    So I was wondering if the silica ( I know that RP is not found of it) may be responsible for that?
    Silica seems harmfull in colloidal form but what about the ionic form?

    After all even some mineral rich water contains it, right?
     
  18. OP
    BaconBits

    BaconBits Member

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    I am going to open another topic in foods sections about starch, I just remembered what ray peat said about it, its bad if undigested starch gets absorbed.

    I am just curious what kind of doctor are you, you do autopsies on people?

    I always wondered about the Sandoz calcium effervescent tablets, it has 80% ob calcium in carbonate form, but you cannot see any calcium particles od feel them in your teeth. Are they micronized. There is a lot of research on Sandoz calcium, but it has aspartame and polyethylene glycol in it.
     
  19. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    This is basic chemistry, solubility of salt in water. CaCl2 is a salt soluble in water ,in water it breaks down into calcium and chloride ions. It does not give hydrochloric acid as you claimed. We all make mistakes. You made a basic mistake there and it is good to admit to your mistake.You can learn more about salt solubility here

    http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/t ... oluble.php

    CaCl2 (s) ---water----> Ca2+ (aq) + 2 Cl- (aq)

    source: http://www.chem.memphis.edu/bridson/Fun ... 3a1100.htm
     
  20. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Hi Wilfrid,

    First, I'm not an expert on Crohn's nor do I have an set of specific recommendations for people with Crohn's what they should and shouldn't eat, etc. I agree with Dr. Peat that at the basis all disease seems to be malfunctions in cellular respiration. If we can can restore energy and respiration we treat the problem and the symptoms resolve. And life goes on. Yet I think I can provide some avenues of thought that may be of use.

    I think that calcium carbonate is the safest. There are other forms that indicated enhanced absorption and increased serum calcium levels but I'm not so sure that necessarily indicates something positive. If we remember that calcium is involved with stress, increased blood levels can also indicate a stress response. The stress response could very well be a response to the form of salt that the calcium is bound to.

    viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1597#p18211

    B6, calcium, copper, magnesium, manganese, and zinc, are all involved with histamine metabolism and getting adequate amounts of those vitamins can help. Vitamin C can help as well. I think that a well formulated diet is usually sufficient. You mentioned that you responded to wheat germ:

    viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1521&p=17361&hilit=Eidon+ionic+minerals#p17361

    Wheat germ has a fair amount of B6 in it. Did you notice an improvement in your histamine symptoms when you were taking this? There are other foods that have good amounts of B6. Sometimes foods that are problematic can confer benefits in a vitamin deficient state before the problematic nature of the food, becomes problematic.

    B6 is also involved with nail growth.

    Vertical ridges in the nails can also indicate insufficient calcium.

    Looking at the composition of the Eidon minerals you are taking there are only two compounds that seem plausible to have an impact given the benefits you describe. Boron and possibly Chromium.

    The literature on boron is mixed, we have absolutely no idea how much we need, probably very little if we do, and if we do it is safest to get it from food. Too much supplemental boron seems to suppress the thyroid and interfere with the immune system, and too little seems problematic as well. When the dose is just right it seems to support the thyroid and modulate the immune system, but even then there can be many reasons why the thyroid can be stimulated. Harmful substances can often stimulate the metabolism much like when we are sick and run a fever. However, I'm not suggesting that you stop taking your preparation, or that it is harmful, I have absolutely no clue either way! As with foods and supplements it is best to pay close attention to how you feel and be your own judge.

    Raisins have a lot of boron and I eat a lot of raisins.

    Chromium is also a possibility as it seems to support an array of processes in the body.

    Additionally, I have found that salt can make milk digestion more comfortable. If for some reason I go a period of time with out drinking milk I will drink my milk with 400-500mg of salt per liter of milk. Some people have reported improved digestion with adding sugar, I've tried this and haven't noticed either way, for myself salt seems to make all the difference. Once I have started to drink milk more regularly I usually stop taking salt with the milk and salting my food seems sufficient.

    When you were taking the wheat germ did you notice that the tissue under your nails became whiter or pinker? Not the nail but underneath the nail did the tissue look healthier? And what about with the mineral preparations you are taking, do you notice this?
     
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