"Don't Mix Red Meat And Vitamin C"?

dudinator

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
23
I was searching through pubmed and couldn't find any answers to this one.

Excess iron is supposed to be bad for us due to metabolic factors as well as increasing microbial load. However, I've never found a study that compared the two effects with each other. After all, if many metabolic perturbations in the body occur downstream of dysbiosis and resulting endotoxin, wouldn't increased iron absorption from concurrent Vitamin C be a good thing? Wouldn't it be preferable that the body regulate iron itself, instead of allowing it to freely pass on to bacteria downstream of the GI?

I dunno. This could be simpleton thinking, but at a gut level steak and Vitamin C rich pineapple juice together never makes me feel bad, even for several days in a row. In fact, they make me feel better than most foods period. I've Celtic heritage too, and donating blood in the past has made me feel fantastic. The first time I did it, it significantly and noticeably improved my glucose tolerance. This was all before I ate much steak or pineapple juice.

Vitamin C is an endotoxin antagonist/reducer(?), maybe this fits in with a more holistic picture of the Vitamin C/iron dynamic. In other words, poorly absorbed iron is bad, well absorbed iron can be good or bad based on the situation. Fortified cereals have always made me feel spacey, bloated, and gassy before (I don't touch for years), although this could be because of the folic acid... Whereas somewhat equivalent (where is cheap, unfortified cereal?) forms of ingredients didn't cause such disturbances when I was in good health.

I'd really like someone to show me some direct evidence in refutation if possible, because the whole counter intuitive notion IMO bothers me.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
5,341
The common idea that "Vitamin C increases Iron Absorption" mostly stems from single meal challenge studies. It mainly affects non-heme iron. This, in itself, implies that it wouldn't affect absorption rate of the heme iron from steak. In fact, this is usually done from radiolabeled isotopes of supplemental iron, so it may not even apply to iron in plants like spinach.

I have researched the iron issue quite a bit (you can see from many of my old posts), and got interested in Vitamin C late last year. I did find one longer term study that tested the effect of taking Vitamin C with meals over an extended period of time.

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/bloodjournal/64/3/721.full.pdf?sso-checked=true

As you can see from the study, ferritin levels sometimes went up, sometimes down, and sometimes held about steady (that seemed most common). Although none of the subjects were classified as having hemochromatosis or high iron, you can see that ferritin dropped dramatically in 3 of the individuals with the highest starting ferritin levels. So, it would appear that the warning of Vitamin C increasing body iron stores (over time) are vastly overblown. The results weren't consistent in any way, based on the table, so regular monitoring of iron levels is still a good idea. After seeing this study, I never hesitate to take vitamin C (even a large amount) with any meal.

By the way, the mechanism through which C enhances iron absorption is through binding with it, similar to how IP6 and EDTA work. In fact, there was an iron/EDTA compound in the works at one time to increase absorption of supplemental iron. While iron fortified foods are best avoided, I would actually think it's safer to take some sort of Vitamin C at the same time, if eating them. IP6 could be an option, as well.

Also, I don't know if you saw this study that showed that orange juice can stop the endotoxin response from common fast food meals. These meals have both PUFA oils and iron fortified bread.

Orange juice neutralizes the proinflammatory effect of a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal and prevents endotoxin increase and Toll-like receptor ex... - PubMed - NCBI

I attached the study and the table, in case the link doesn't work.
 

Attachments

  • 721.full.pdf
    928.6 KB · Views: 1
  • Ferritin Table.png
    Ferritin Table.png
    22.5 KB · Views: 6
Last edited:

dudinator

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
23
The common idea that "Vitamin C increases Iron Absorption" mostly stems from single meal challenge studies. It mainly affects non-heme iron. This, in itself, implies that it wouldn't affect absorption rate of the heme iron from steak. In fact, this is usually done from radiolabeled isotopes of supplemental iron, so it may not even apply to iron in plants like spinach.

I have researched the iron issue quite a bit (you can see from many of my old posts), and got interested in Vitamin C late last year. I did find one longer term study that tested the effect of taking Vitamin C with meals over an extended period of time.

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/bloodjournal/64/3/721.full.pdf?sso-checked=true

As you can see from the study, ferritin levels sometimes went up, sometimes down, and sometimes held about steady (that seemed most common). Although none of the subjects were classified as having hemochromatosis or high iron, you can see that ferritin dropped dramatically in 3 of the individuals with the highest starting ferritin levels. So, it would appear that the warning of Vitamin C increasing body iron stores (over time) are vastly overblown. The results weren't consistent in any way, based on the table, so regular monitoring of iron levels is still a good idea. After seeing this study, I never hesitate to take vitamin C (even a large amount) with any meal.

By the way, the mechanism through which C enhances iron absorption is through binding with it, similar to how IP6 and EDTA work. In fact, there was an iron/EDTA compound in the works at one time to increase absorption of supplemental iron. While iron fortified foods are best avoided, I would actually think it's safer to take some sort of Vitamin C at the same time, if eating them. IP6 could be an option, as well.

Also, I don't know if you saw this study that showed that orange juice can stop the endotoxin response from common fast food meals. These meals have both PUFA oils and iron fortified bread.

Orange juice neutralizes the proinflammatory effect of a high-fat, high-carbohydrate meal and prevents endotoxin increase and Toll-like receptor ex... - PubMed - NCBI

I attached the study and the table, in case the link doesn't work.
Awesome man. Everything I needed. I never bought the notion in the first place, but it's always nice for one's intuition to be validated.

Unfortunately in my state of unhealth, OJ doesn't agree with me to the extent pineapple juice does.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
Hgreen56 why milk and starch don't mix? Diet 6
Mauritio Sterile gut leads to lower anxiety, serotonin , and TPH-levels + some bacteria don't increase serotonin Articles & Scientific Studies 4
youngsinatra Vitamin D - Don‘t Guess, But Test! Ask For Help or Advice 30
C No digestive symptoms, yet I don't digest anything... Digestion 9
G Don't get tested or wear a mask Vaccines 26
charlie CDC: Face Masks Don’t Prevent COVID-19, Study Finds Masks Have Negligible Impact On Coronavirus Numbers Articles & Scientific Studies 14
RealNeat "No chew" carrot salad (please don't choke) Digestion 22
Hugh Johnson ACLU declares ‘transgender myths DEBUNKED,’ says trans girls don't have any ‘unfair advantage’ in women’s sports Society 5
haidut NY Governor Cuomo: ‘I don’t really trust experts’ Miscellaneous Health Discussions 17
H Parents who don't want help Ask For Help or Advice 11
J CNN: ‘Don’t Be Alarmed’ if People Start Dying After Taking the COVID Vaccine Miscellaneous Health Discussions 3
Giraffe We don't need Covid-20. We just carry on with Covid-19. Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 5
bzmazu BE UNSHAKEABLE. Don't Be Affected By Events Meditation, Mindfullness, Religion, Spirituality 37
Julian Solving Histamine Intolerance With Peppermint Oil? DO Or DON'T Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 12
T Don't Know Where To Turn. About To Give Up Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 28
MaxVerstappen Bacteria And Viruses Don't Cause Disease Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 3
V Eating More Nutritious Food That I Don't Crave And I Find Hard To Digest Or Avoid Them At All? Digestion 9
wealthofwisdom Don't Eat X, But Eat More Calories Diet 49
GreekDemiGod What Nutrients Are We Missing If We Don't Eat Vegetables? Diet 19
ScurveDream You Don't Fight A Person -- You Fight A System Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 3
J Why Does Peat Say Beef Is Low PUFA? Studies Are Contrary. I Don't Get It Meat 6
L Don’t Bet On Vaccine To Protect Us From Covid-19, Says World Health Expert Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 17
Ravenslore Why Does My Hair Fall Out If I Don't Take Glycine Daily? Ask For Help or Advice 24
B New Estimates Show 25% To 50% Of Coronavirus Carriers Don't Even Have Symptoms And Can Infect Others Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 22
C Is It Dangerous To Take NDT If You Don't Need It? Ask For Help or Advice 24
ecstatichamster Don't Forget Methylene Blue And Vitamin C Combo If You Are Sick Vitamins 16
B I Still Don’t Understand How EPA/DHA Are Bad Or “toxins” As Matt Blackburn Refers To Them Ask For Help or Advice 30
L How Do You Get Enough Salt If You Don't Like Cheese? Diet 12
LucyL Proof They Don't Want To Cure Cancer? Scientific Studies 7
A I Don't Want To Be Obese, Need Help Ask For Help or Advice 35
Hans Blood Test Interpretation Resources. Don't Know What Your Labs Mean Or Need Extra Insight? Blood Work, Labs 72
GorillaHead If Androgens Don't Cause Hair Loss How Does One Explain This Study? Scientific Studies 97
R Smoking Cinnamon. Don't Laugh ! Alcohol, Tobacco, Drugs 9
M Don't Forget The Carrot Salad Testimonials 9
ecstatichamster Why Don’t Cod Freeze Up Miscellaneous Health Discussions 4
A Messed Up My Copper Levels: Don't Do This (please Help) Ask For Help or Advice 43
W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ M.E. Switch To Anaerobic, Don't Replicate First Day Exercise Scientific Studies 5
methylenewhite Alcohol-producing Gut Bacteria Could Cause Liver Damage Even In People Who Don't Drink Scientific Studies 2
SuperStressed I Don't Think I Can Recover, Suicidal| Mental Health Log Mental Issues 118
Vinny Got A Body Analyser, Don`t Understand The Data Received Ask For Help or Advice 3
jzeno What Foods Do You Enjoy Eating But Don't Eat? Diet, Recipes 8
Inaut Anxiety, Sleep, GABA, Serotonin & Why We Don't Want Too Much Serotonin - Georgi Dinkov Interviews 6
Gadsie I Think 5 Liters Of Milk A Day Gives Me Diarrhea, But I Don’t Know What Else To Eat Ask For Help or Advice 47
lvysaur In Defense Of Milk: And I Don't Think It's The Calcium Dairy, Eggs 31
michael94 Young Children Don’t Mind Being Rude Mental Issues 30
Highserotonin90 I Don't Understand, We Should Eliminate Fruit Because Of Salicylate Toxic ? Fruits 2
Hugh Johnson FDA Chief: Feds Might Step In If States Don't Change Lax Vaccine Laws Vaccines 24
johnwester130 Don't Forget To Supplement Tryptophan If You Take Gelatin Gelatin 3
tankasnowgod New Fat Loss Strategy- Don't Cut Calories, Fix The Gut, Liver, Metabolism, Hormones (Tanka's Log) Weight 21
C Ginger, Lemongrass And Kaffir Lime Leaves Broth (don't Eat The Leaves)? Spices 1

Similar threads

Top