Donald Trump

[thomas00]

I actually hate Trump overall, but with regard to Syria, it's time a world leader had some balls.

There's looking tough and actually doing something effective. Trump's strike won't achieve anything in terms of ending the war.

 

[thomas00]

The apologists need to get real.

That probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Fake news!


I find all the outrage over 'Trump getting involved in Syria!" pretty curious. Didn't these people know that there are 500 US soldiers in South East Syria and tonnes of air strikes occurring and that neither of those things started two days ago?

A convoy of US forces armoured vehicles drives near the village of Yalanli, on the western outskirts of the northern Syrian city of Manbij, on March 5, 2017 AFP/Getty

 

[yerrag]

I was referring to the wider government, apparently there are 700+ positions any president has to nominate and he hasn't done that yet.

I see that can be taken as a negative. But OTOH it would be more difficult to rush through the process of appointments and end up getting more unqualified people. And you have to give Trump some leeway, as he isn't just going to pick someone just because he has experience, no matter how poor the track record. One appointee, a treasury secretary (Tim Geithner), under Obama, was a failure overseeing the New York Fed, and it amazes me no end how being a spectacular failure gets you a promotion as a treasury secretary. Oh well, that was the way politics was done. Toe the line. Sacrifice your principles. Be a yes man. This kind of appointment system no doubt is a major cause that got the country into a disintegrating spiral.

You've given examples already of poor choices in nominees for the cabinet. And you're complaining the process needs to be speeded up no matter what?

All we have to go on that this group wasn't Nazi is his denial, but it's pretty clear what the US thought:

The US government designated the order as an organisation “under Nazi control” during the Second World War, when Hungary’s nationalist leader Miklos Horthy allied with Adolf Hitler and collaborated in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews.

The designation dates back to the 40's, and it is to an organization that Gorka's father belonged to. Gorka denies he belongs to that organization, and he wore the medal out of respect for his father. Such symbolism counts a lot for a son who truly respects the heroism of his father, and the media would twist it for its own narrative. Wearing a medal would forever taint a person, if the media were to be the judge of it.

Some bans are politically token and arbritary though, rather than necessary. I think the 'muslim ban' fell into that category.

It's only arbitrary because you don't agree with it. If Trump is just being ahead of the curve in keeping the US safe from radical Islam and its preaching of heavenly rewards for bombing innocent civilian infidels. Actually, he is way behind already. Remember 911? Too distant in the past? How about the recurring Islamic violence in happy and arms wide in welcome Europe?

 

[yerrag]

Let's speculate:

1) The Syrian sky is now under total Russian control.

2) American missiles cost in total 98 million dollars, if we had to suppose they were old and had to be destroyed, that procedure would have cost three times as much. Not lastly, new ones will have to be built to take their place.

3) Russia's and China's declaring that this was an attack against a sovereign state in violation of international law will inevitably bring to a serious investigation regarding the motives behind it - the use of chemical weapons.

4) The results of such investigations will let the truth emerge, i.e. that terrorists have used them with the support of United States secret services, and not Assad.

5) This last item will be a more than valid excuse for Trump, who will find himself free to clean up the head positions of the CIA. Far from a third world war, rather a strategically coordinated action very likely set up in advance between the two main actors

4D chess

I like this kind of ending. The world deserves as much.

 

[yerrag]

There's looking tough and actually doing something effective. Trump's strike won't achieve anything in terms of ending the war.

Let's let the dust settle and then we can start kibitzing.

 

[zztr]

I find all the outrage over 'Trump getting involved in Syria!" pretty curious.

The air and minor ground activities in Syria predate the administration. We expected that stuff to be ending now. The strikes and the full on media blitz and appearance at the UN represent a deliberate betrayal of two years of promises.

 

[x-ray peat]

The 'Marxist indoctrination' trope is hilarious. Apparently it doesn't matter that the US economy functions in a way that is embodies everything Marx criticised, just call it Marxist anyway and it makes your conspiracy theory sound like it fits more.

The only thing funny I see is someone trying to argue a Marxist philosophy without even realizing its Marxist roots. Your belief that a parasitic class is sucking up all of the wealth and that workers should be paid according to something other than their free market value is the basis of the Marxist fantasy.

As for the US economy not becoming more and more Communist you could start by reading the Communist Manifesto and see how many of its 10 planks the US has already adopted.
Checklist: America meets 90% of Karl Marx’s demands

You can keep going on about 'only presenting a small a bit of the evidence' and making vague, general claims about 'many other voices saying the same' all you want. Unless you provide some actual documentary evidence then no sane person is going to take you anymore seriously than they would a bigfoot investigator.

As I originally thought, there is no amount of evidence that could overcome the cognitive dissonance induced by having your basic assumptions of the world questioned. I have given you at least ten fully referenced historical works by some of the world’s most respected historians as well as eye witness testimony. If you can’t be bothered to read any of them while continuing to falsely claim I haven’t given you any evidence, then I don't see much point in continuing this.

Drawing equivalencies is just another technique you employ, along with appeals to authority and claims that these matters are so elusive and hard to understand that only a few can wrap their heads around them (and this select few includes you- what a surprise!).

Unfortunately these equivalencies are totally false as somebody who wants to make a coherent case against all of the ills you listed about can actually build it with evidence and published research. Something you haven't been able to accomplish.

You are once again repeating your tired distractions. Falsely shouting out logical fallacy over and over is not an argument. The only logical fallacy here is your clear misunderstanding of what these terms actually mean. Presenting the credentials of a source to buttress their claim is not a fallacy. It is a logical means used to evaluate the credibility of expert witness testimony. It’s only a fallacy if the expert doesn’t have the expertise in the relevant topic area.

You also don’t seem to understand what a false equivalence fallacy is. "Drawing equivalences" is not a "technique" or a fallacy per se and is only a fallacy if the equivalence is false. All of the issues I mentioned share the common trait of being lies heavily promoted by the mainstream media and trustingly believed by the majority of the public. There is no need to keep these things secret like you seem to think.

And once again falsely claiming that I haven’t given you "evidence and published research" doesn’t make it true, no matter how often you repeat it. That of course is a logical fallacy, argument by repetition, or more appropriately known as argumentum ad nauseam.

 

[x-ray peat]

obama weight lifting on Make a GIF

It's okay for an out-and-out beta male to order bombings because he has compassion.

You should see alpha Michael lift. I mean Michelle

 

[x-ray peat]

If Trump lets the situation further escalate to yet another war for Israel, he has proven himself to be a farce.
It's getting interesting.

Every one of these recent wars in the Middle East has been disastrous for Israel which has only resulted in strengthening the hand of their real enemy, fundamentalist Iran. It has also unleashed a wave of fundamentalist Islamic lunacy over the entire region. Saddam Husein was a bulwark against Iran and a secular leader who was not an enemy of the West but actually an ally for a long time. His overthrow has given Iran/Shiite defacto control over the country. Obama abandoning Iraq and allowing for the rise of ISIS has also let loose a tyranny of radical Islamic terrorism on the people there with the stated goal of wiping out Israel. His deal with Iran to give them a clear path to the bomb and billions of dollars in cash was just one more existential threat to Israel.

Obama also helped to topple the secular Egyptian government and therefore created yet another radical Islamic state that was thankfully crushed by Egypt's military. The overthrow of Gaddafy in Libya has also been a boon to Islamic radicalism and one more threat to Israel.

These wars have also had the added bonus feature of destroying much of Christianity in the Middle East. We should all stop believing the disinfo and scapegoating and actually evaluate these actions by their results, i.e. qui bono, who benefits. The globalists hate Israel, real Christianity and all things Biblical. Israel has been one of the main losers from the last two decades of war and now has both Iran and Russia on their doorstep.

 

[zztr]

Likudnik lobbying has clearly been a top three factor in US mid-east meddling. It's impossible to ignore the enthusiasm of so many jewish organizations and individuals for these wars.

 

[x-ray peat]

Likudnik lobbying has clearly been a top three factor in US mid-east meddling. It's impossible to ignore the enthusiasm of so many jewish organizations and individuals for these wars.

Propaganda is often hard to see through but the truth is that Israel did not want W to go to war with Iraq. Iraq was already very much weakened and ousting Saddam would only give Shiite Iran control as Iraq is majority Shiite. Everyone knew this. Many of these front men with Jewish names are trotted out as a cover for the real powers so that the Jews can be more easily scapegoated. Do you really think Grandmotherly Janet Yellin is the real power at the Fed? This is one of the oldest tricks of the ruling elite.
Israel Warned US Not to Invade Iraq after 9/11

 

[zztr]

That's a nice link and all and I'm sure some officials in the israeli government thought the Iraq invasion was a bad idea, but I vividly recall the era. Distinctly likudnik organizations and individuals were pushing for it like crazy. And the same people are pushing for Syria now. You can argue that it is in fact dumb from Israel's perspective, but that's kind of irrelevant, isn't it.

You're a weird dude. Aren't you over in the other thread saying shadowy forces are spraying chemicals in contrails? And over here you're trying to obfuscate the blatantly obvious fact that many individual Jews and jewish organizations in America have agitated for war, which about two hours of watching TV plainly reveals. No conspiracy theorizing necessary.

 

[x-ray peat]

That's a nice link and all and I'm sure some officials in the israeli government thought the Iraq invasion was a bad idea, but I vividly recall the era. Distinctly likudnik organizations and individuals were pushing for it like crazy. And the same people are pushing for Syria now. You can argue that it is in fact dumb from Israel's perspective, but that's kind of irrelevant, isn't it.

You're a weird dude. Aren't you over in the other thread saying shadowy forces are spraying chemicals in contrails? And over here you're trying to obfuscate the blatantly obvious fact that many individual Jews and jewish organizations in America have agitated for war, which about two hours of watching TV plainly reveals. No conspiracy theorizing necessary.

So now I’m a weird dude because I have a different point of view from you. I distinctly remember the same era and I saw over and over again the same Jewish frontmen being blamed for the war, Wolfowitz and Pearl. These are globalists and they could care less about Israel or the US for that matter.

It’s funny that you choose to believe the TV propaganda rather than Colin Powell’s Chief of Staff who was in a position to know the truth. He clearly says that it was the official position of the Israeli government that was against the Iraq war, not just a few Israelis.

Israel Warned US Not to Invade Iraq after 9/11 Wilkerson, then a member of the State Department's Policy Planning Staff and later chief of staff for Secretary of State Colin Powell, recalled in an interview with IPS that the Israelis reacted immediately to indications that the Bush administration was thinking of war against Iraq. After the Israeli government picked up the first signs of that intention, Wilkerson says, "The Israelis were telling us Iraq is not the enemy -- Iran is the enemy." Wilkerson describes the Israeli message to the Bush administration in early 2002 as being, If you are going to destabilise the balance of power, do it against the main enemy."

The warning against an invasion of Iraq was "pervasive" in Israeli communications with the administration, Wilkerson recalls. It was conveyed to the administration by a wide range of Israeli sources, including political figures, intelligence and private citizens.

Wilkerson notes that the main point of their communications was not that the United States should immediately attack Iran, but that "it should not be distracted by Iraq and Saddam Hussein" from a focus on the threat from Iran.

The vast majority of Jews are liberal and against war of any kind. Non Jews George Bush and Cheney were the ones who made the decision despite warnings from the Israeli Government not to. The charade that somehow it’s always the Jews behind everything is kind of old, about 2,000 years old.

I don’t think you are weird for falling for the disinformation, just not very smart. Is Ray Peat weird too for not believing in man-made global warming or thinking that the CIA funded many of the leaders of the supposed left or that the elite control the culture for their benefit? “Two hours of watching TV” [would] plainly reveal” him to be a nutcase for that as well as just about everything else he has ever said. Ray also doesn't accept the official investigation of 9/11. I bet you do, including the mysterious collapse of WTC 7. I think it’s time to turn off the TV and think for yourself.

 

[zztr]

I don't understand why you're so touchy about this. Are you jewish? It's just a fact extensively documented in scholarly works that what is called "the israel lobby" has enormous influence on US foreign policy and has repeatedly pushed for war. Nobody said anything about all jews.

 

[x-ray peat]

I don't understand why you're so touchy about this. Are you jewish? It's just a fact extensively documented in scholarly works that what is called "the israel lobby" has enormous influence on US foreign policy and has repeatedly pushed for war. Nobody said anything about all jews.

No, it's not a fact but more propaganda. If the Israel lobby was so powerful Obama would never have been able to make the Iranian nuclear deal. W would not have destabilized the Middle East by attacking Iraq and Obama would not have made things worse by pulling out. I have given you strong evidence and eye witness testimony that Israel did not want the US to attack Iraq but you keep sticking to your false belief that they did. As for the dreaded Israel Lobby, I can also present plenty of "extensively documented scholarly works" on a vast number of lies. Many of which are disputed daily by people on this forum as one of the hallmarks of most members is they can see through the BS.

Finally I don't know why you keep making this a personal issue. First I'm a weird dude and now I must be Jewish because I have an different point of view than you. I am actually Christian if you must know.

 

[zztr]

Obama spent years excoriated by the israel lobby and its agents for some small steps in opposition to their agenda, including the Iran deal and not attacking syria. Therefore the israel lobby doesn't exist. There's some link where it's alleged some anonymous somebody in the israeli government warned against the iraq invasion. Therefore the individuals and lobbies connected to PNAC don't exist.

I'm not sure you've thought this through or know very much about the matter. You seem to have reflexively seized on a position. The israel lobby is a fact, and it pushes for heavy US involvement in the mideast.

 

[x-ray peat]

Obama spent years excoriated by the israel lobby and its agents for some small steps in opposition to their agenda, including the Iran deal and not attacking syria. Therefore the israel lobby doesn't exist. There's some link where it's alleged some anonymous somebody in the israeli government warned against the iraq invasion. Therefore the individuals and lobbies connected to PNAC don't exist.

I'm not sure you've thought this through or know very much about the matter. You seem to have reflexively seized on a position. The israel lobby is a fact, and it pushes for heavy US involvement in the mideast.

So because I disagree with you, I must not be informed on the matter. The fact that you think the Iranian nuclear deal was a small issue to the Israelis clearly shows you have some reading to do on the subject. It’s also clear that you are the one stuck in a false belief if you can read the link I posted from Colin Powell’s Chief of Staff and characterize it as you did. Wilkerson clearly states that it was the entire Israeli government that was against the war, not just one person as you disingenuously claim.

You are now changing the subject. I never claimed the Israeli lobby wasn't influential. They lobby for Israel just as every other country has a lobby that does so on their behalf. But Israel is not pulling the US strings like you seem to believe. The evidence is clear from all of the actions taken by the US that were far from helpful to Israel. Look at how Obama treated Netanyahu in 2010 when he came to visit. He left him waiting in the Whitehouse lobby like some errand boy while he had dinner with his family. The Israeli lobby didn't do a thing about it, nor could they. Obama snubbed Netanyahu for dinner with Michelle and the girls, Israelis claim You are quite naïve and misinformed if you think tiny Israel wags the American dog. America may be co-opted, but it is not by Israel.

 

[zztr]

Oh, Obama was rude to Netanyahu once. Clearly a powerful Israel lobby does not exist. Nevermind that he has this tendency to show up at the US congress and ask for war. Or that AIPAC routinely ranks as the most powerful lobbying organization in America, up with AARP. I had forgoten about that link that explains some anonymous people in the Israeli government said off the record that invading Iraq was a bad idea. Thanks for bringing it up yet again. The reminder makes it clear to me that there is no powerful Israel lobby that rather openly advocated for regime change for years building up to the invasion.

This is silly. Please stop.

 

[x-ray peat]

Oh, Obama was rude to Netanyahu once. Clearly a powerful Israel lobby does not exist. Nevermind that he has this tendency to show up at the US congress and ask for war. Or that AIPAC routinely ranks as the most powerful lobbying organization in America, up with AARP. I had forgoten about that link that explains some anonymous people in the Israeli government said off the record that invading Iraq was a bad idea. Thanks for bringing it up yet again. The reminder makes it clear to me that there is no powerful Israel lobby that rather openly advocated for regime change for years building up to the invasion.

This is silly. Please stop.

I will stop as this is just a waste of time. You have continually tried to change the debate, mischaracterized the evidence and have thrown one strawman after another. The question was whether the US was about to fight another war on behalf of Israel not about your all powerful Israeli lobby fantasy. They clearly never asked for the war and warned against it. The results of these US misadventures in the Middle East were just as the Israelis and anyone else with a brain had foretold; a ruinous mess that has empowered Iran to further its quest for Middle East hegemony and its often stated goal to destroy the Israeli state.

 

[zztr]

They clearly never asked for the war and warned against it. The results of these US misadventures in the Middle East were just as the Israelis and anyone else with a brain had foretold; a ruinous mess that has empowered Iran to further its quest for Middle East hegemony and its often stated goal to destroy the Israeli state.

Your precious link is dumb and wrong and entirely at odds with all accounts and events. You can repeat your link as many times as you want and I will continue to deny you the last word.

Let's hear from Michael Savage about current developments vis-a-vis Syria with regard to the Israel lobby: Jewish talkshow-host Michael Savage blames Israel for war in... - Clyp