Does vitamin K supplementation deplete vitamin E?

andrewlee224

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So I’ve read that vitamin E interferes with/depletes vitamin K, but does it also work the other way? I’ve been supplementing vitamin K regularly but E not so much so I’m wondering if this may cause problems.
 

Mito

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There are several aspects of vitamin K’s biochemistry that suggest high doses could have adverse effects on our health:
  • Vitamins E and K are broken down in similar pathways (Shearer, 2008). High doses of either one elicit an increase in these catabolic pathways by activating a common receptor known as the steroid and xenobiotic receptor (SXR) or the pregnane X receptor (PXR). As a result, high doses of one will elicit the destruction of the other. Thus, high-dose vitamin K could contribute to vitamin E deficiency.
  • Second, a small portion of vitamin K is broken down to a compound known as menadione (Thijssen, 2006). Some of the menadione is used to synthesize MK-4, but high concentrations are toxic. We therefore conjugate a portion of the menadione to glutathione, the master antioxidant and detoxifier of the cell, and excrete the complex into our urine. High doses of vitamin K could therefore deplete glutathione. This would impair detoxification, and along with vitamin E depletion it would hurt antioxidant activity.
  • High doses of vitamin K can inhibit bone resorption, which is probably the mechanistic basis by which 45 mg/day reduce fracture risk (Iwamoto, 2013). While bone resorption sounds like a bad thing, we need to use it every day to help our bones remodel themselves and adapt their structures to our lifestyles, and to keep blood levels of calcium within a precisely controlled range. We also use bone resorption to release osteocalcin into the blood, where it acts on multiple tissues to improve our metabolic and hormonal health (Ferron, 2007; Oury, 2013). Ironically, one of the benefits of vitamin K2 is to support proper production of osteocalcin, but high doses of the vitamin could hypothetically prevent us from using it. That would be expected to hurt blood sugar control, insulin sensitivity, our metabolic rate, and, in males, testosterone production.
 

AndrogenicJB

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Can you take a d k and e all at the same time. Or do any of them need to be taken away from each other
 

jerry.j

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Aside from possible interference with Vitamin E, it appears MK-7 could act as a 5a-reductase inhibitor (Kim 1999)
 

Mr.Bollox

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There are several aspects of vitamin K’s biochemistry that suggest high doses could have adverse effects on our health:
  • Vitamins E and K are broken down in similar pathways (Shearer, 2008). High doses of either one elicit an increase in these catabolic pathways by activating a common receptor known as the steroid and xenobiotic receptor (SXR) or the pregnane X receptor (PXR). As a result, high doses of one will elicit the destruction of the other. Thus, high-dose vitamin K could contribute to vitamin E deficiency.
  • Second, a small portion of vitamin K is broken down to a compound known as menadione (Thijssen, 2006). Some of the menadione is used to synthesize MK-4, but high concentrations are toxic. We therefore conjugate a portion of the menadione to glutathione, the master antioxidant and detoxifier of the cell, and excrete the complex into our urine. High doses of vitamin K could therefore deplete glutathione. This would impair detoxification, and along with vitamin E depletion it would hurt antioxidant activity.
  • High doses of vitamin K can inhibit bone resorption, which is probably the mechanistic basis by which 45 mg/day reduce fracture risk (Iwamoto, 2013). While bone resorption sounds like a bad thing, we need to use it every day to help our bones remodel themselves and adapt their structures to our lifestyles, and to keep blood levels of calcium within a precisely controlled range. We also use bone resorption to release osteocalcin into the blood, where it acts on multiple tissues to improve our metabolic and hormonal health (Ferron, 2007; Oury, 2013). Ironically, one of the benefits of vitamin K2 is to support proper production of osteocalcin, but high doses of the vitamin could hypothetically prevent us from using it. That would be expected to hurt blood sugar control, insulin sensitivity, our metabolic rate, and, in males, testosterone production.

this is some extremely scary stuff, and many are using or recommending several milligrams of K2 (thousands of percent of the RDA) and same with vitamin E. do you think these supplements, along with even zinc and magnesium supplements should be totally eliminated? what about D3 supplements
 

GelatinGoblin

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this is some extremely scary stuff, and many are using or recommending several milligrams of K2 (thousands of percent of the RDA) and same with vitamin E. do you think these supplements, along with even zinc and magnesium supplements should be totally eliminated? what about D3 supplements
I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that it is very dangerous and that one must drop all MK-4 supplementation.
The RDA is usually for the MK-7 form, which is in the microgram range.
One generally shouldn't supplement Vitamin E anyway and I don't know where you heard it being recommended multiple times on here.
Besides the study is from 2008 when a lot of understanding on it was not formed, and it is mostly hypothetical. I think a more modern study would be more relevent in showing the dangers.

Maybe just not taking Vitamin E and K2 on the same day. That's it.
I don't think Vitamin E supplementation is physiological honestly.
 

GelatinGoblin

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Vitamin E and K interactions – a 50-year-old problem (Vitamin E and K interactions – a 50-year-old problem)

CONCLUSION​

In summary, vitamins E and K appear to share the same metabolic pathways; the side chain of both are ω-hydroxylated, then undergo β-oxidation. Hypothetically, MK-4 is decreased in response to high hepatic α-tocopherol and, therefore, the most active form of vitamin K, MK-4, is depleted.

There are various possible mechanisms that could account for the decreased MK-4 concentrations. Vitamin E may interfere with formation of MK-4 from K1. K1 must be converted to MK-4 by truncation of its side chain to form menadione, followed by tail replacement with geranylgeranyl to form MK-4. The mechanism for the conversion of K1 to menadione is unknown, despite the recognition that menadione is an intermediate in the conversion of K1 to MK-4. Vitamin E may increase metabolic pathways and deplete all vitamin K forms. Clearly, more studies are needed.

The paper is from 2008 when a lot of things were still unknown about MK-4 conversation etc. as stated in the beginning of the paper.
 

AndrogenicJB

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I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that it is very dangerous and that one must drop all MK-4 supplementation.
The RDA is usually for the MK-7 form, which is in the microgram range.
One generally shouldn't supplement Vitamin E anyway and I don't know where you heard it being recommended multiple times on here.
Besides the study is from 2008 when a lot of understanding on it was not formed, and it is mostly hypothetical. I think a more modern study would be more relevent in showing the dangers.

Maybe just not taking Vitamin E and K2 on the same day. That's it.
I don't think Vitamin E supplementation is physiological honestly.
If I train monday wednesday friday, should I take k2 on training days and e on non-training days. How should I take them to avoid issues. I also take the other fat solubles
 

GelatinGoblin

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If I train monday wednesday friday, should I take k2 on training days and e on non-training days. How should I take them to avoid issues. I also take the other fat solubles
Eat it with a meal that has fat. Vitamin K in-general requires the most Fat, Vitamin E is second, Vitamin D is third and Vitamin A is last in-terms of fat needed for absorption and utilisation. So take K2 with a meal that has some fat.

Take it whenever you want, but I think on training days is a bit more useful for gains. (K2)

You don't need to take other fat solubles IMO
 

AndrogenicJB

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Eat it with a meal that has fat. Vitamin K in-general requires the most Fat, Vitamin E is second, Vitamin D is third and Vitamin A is last in-terms of fat needed for absorption and utilisation. So take K2 with a meal that has some fat.

Take it whenever you want, but I think on training days is a bit more useful for gains. (K2)

You don't need to take other fat solubles IMO
Can I take it with a meal that has 180g carbs, 75g fat, 72g protein? Do you think the randle cycle would be a problem here, I am 17? Should it be taken orally, I have heard of some people taking it topically? Also have you used gonadin?
 

Mito

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this is some extremely scary stuff, and many are using or recommending several milligrams of K2 (thousands of percent of the RDA) and same with vitamin E. do you think these supplements, along with even zinc and magnesium supplements should be totally eliminated? what about D3 supplements
Several milligram doses of Vitamin K are typically used for therapeutic purposes. Masterjohn didn’t define what he meant by high doses but in that guide he previously talked about high dose as 45 mg as used in some clinical trials.

Vitamin E is important to prevent excessive lipid peroxidation if you eat PUFA (everyone does to some extent) amd it’s also an important part of the antioxidant defense system.

Typically zinc and magnesium supplements would be used if your diet is not sufficient (use Cronometer to check).

Vitamin D supplements can be helpful if you don’t or can’t get outside in the sun regularly.
 

Belsazar

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CONCLUSION​

In summary, vitamins E and K appear to share the same metabolic pathways; the side chain of both are ω-hydroxylated, then undergo β-oxidation. Hypothetically, MK-4 is decreased in response to high hepatic α-tocopherol and, therefore, the most active form of vitamin K, MK-4, is depleted.

There are various possible mechanisms that could account for the decreased MK-4 concentrations. Vitamin E may interfere with formation of MK-4 from K1. K1 must be converted to MK-4 by truncation of its side chain to form menadione, followed by tail replacement with geranylgeranyl to form MK-4. The mechanism for the conversion of K1 to menadione is unknown, despite the recognition that menadione is an intermediate in the conversion of K1 to MK-4. Vitamin E may increase metabolic pathways and deplete all vitamin K forms. Clearly, more studies are needed.

The paper is from 2008 when a lot of things were still unknown about MK-4 conversation etc. as stated in the beginning of the paper.
then share these new papers about about Vitamin K research.

Maybe just not taking Vitamin E and K2 on the same day. That's it.
I don't think Vitamin E supplementation is physiological honestly.
But Vitamin K is?
 

AndrogenicJB

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I just comment never contribute :cigar:

Manageable. and beneficial if K2 MK-4, Quinones are a bit different and often useful if supplemented or eaten. Vitamin E is kinda meh, haven't really found a reasonable source aswell outside of Nuts and Avocado.
Have you used gonadin
 

GelatinGoblin

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Can I take it with a meal that has 180g carbs, 75g fat, 72g protein? Do you think the randle cycle would be a problem here, I am 17? Should it be taken orally, I have heard of some people taking it topically? Also have you used gonadin?
Why does the meal have so much Fat?
Start by taking it orally. I don't know anything about topical application of medicine personally, maybe @TheBeard can tune in.
 
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