Does The Ray Peat Lifestyle Promote Lack Of Empathy?

[ecstatichamster]

Shocking lack of empathy. /sarcasm

lol. Hey. A sense of humor.

 

[opethfeldt]

lol. Hey. A sense of humor.

I never said I didn't have fun

 

[Anders86]

This is probably going to be a controversial post but it's something I'm struggling with and maybe I'm not alone. All it takes is a few minutes searching for "high testosterone low cortisol empathy" in Google to find numerous studies linking low cortisol and high testosterone to psychopathy and lack of empathy.

There seems to be this idea in this forum that the Ray Peat lifestyle leads to increased empathy from decreased serotonin, but if serotonin being low reduces cortisol, would that not predispose someone to said lack of empathy? There's also studies showing low serotonin increases aggression, but of the impulsive, reactive type, not the instrumental, planned aggression promoted by high serotonin.

I've noticed that I've become a bit of a d*** since I started Peating. Healthier, no doubt. But also way less caring and empathetic. My "fuse" is also way shorter and I feel adrenaline surging whenever I perceive my status being threatened. Have any of you experienced the same?

Sounds like GABA.

 

[opethfeldt]

Sounds like GABA.

You could be right. I've always done well on things that increased GABA. Theanine, niacinamide. I drink a lot of coffee and take over a gram of aspirin a day. There's probably more antagonists that I'm not aware of I might be taking. Maybe I'm just antagonizing my GABA too much. The problem is that I don't feel stressed until I feel "disrespected". Most people would say I'm very laid back... Until I'm not.

 

[Peatogenic]

I've not noticed higher testosterone creating higher empathy, just more passionate and resilient. My empathy level was normal before and remains so.

 

[Regina]

I think too much empathy can be a bad thing. I’ve been high cortisol for years and have found myself being walked all over due to fear of hurting the feelings of others, even those who hate me. The less you care, the less you stress. Obviously there should be a balance, but I’d rather be just short of not giving a damn than be the nervous wreck I am today.

I agree.
Dave Foster offered an interesting look at empathy. I don't want to speak for Dave. But I think I got what he meant. Empathy is very different from compassion. To give an animal example; last week in Chicago, an injured coyote attacked a 6 yr old boy. It was uncharacteristically risky and brazen. It was not "evil." The coyote had an injured leg; he would no longer be able to grab a goose or rabbit or rat. He must've been 'out of his mind' with the pain of hunger and the injury and the stress of how to survive in this state. It is not difficult to comprehend when we see it in an animal. We know we are differentiated from this animal and don't take it personally. We are able to perceive, think, act. Animal Control trapped the animal and removed him from the area. We don't hang-wring whether we should just let him eat the kid. Nor do we riddle the coyote with bullets.
I think when we are differentiated/individuated, we recognize when someone is injured and have compassion for them.

I don't know, it makes me think of the weird thing my parents said to me when I didn't want to finish eating something on my plate. "Think of starving Chinese." Even when I was 5, I knew that was completely irrational. It has nothing to do with me. Eating this brussel sprout will not help the starving Chinese.

So, since Peating, I am less drawn into 'needing to help' in such a way as to set myself on fire to keep someone warm. It is not as easy to hook into that weakness in me.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I've not noticed higher testosterone creating higher empathy, just more passionate and resilient. My empathy level was normal before and remains so.

same here.

 

[kyle]

I think empathy is being able to conceptualize another's experience and relate it to our own requires a certain ability of memory and reasoning - both signs of a functional mind.

Compassion is to be moved emotionally so as to alleviate someones pain.

Compassion is mediated by our reason. Certainly compassion can be used to irrational ends if your emotions are too strong.

I think if your mind is functioning better, as in through memory and reason, you wont be moved by things you see in retrospect as less rational.

Psychopathy is more akin to autism or a kind of mind blindness. It is the lack of ability to conceptialize the minds of others. I think trauma is a large component of that type of thing.

 

[Peatogenic]

I think empathy is being able to conceptualize another's experience and relate it to our own requires a certain ability of memory and reasoning - both signs of a functional mind.

Compassion is to be moved emotionally so as to alleviate someones pain.

Compassion is mediated by our reason. Certainly compassion can be used to irrational ends if your emotions are too strong.

I think if your mind is functioning better, as in through memory and reason, you wont be moved by things you see in retrospect as less rational.

Psychopathy is more akin to autism or a kind of mind blindness. It is the lack of ability to conceptialize the minds of others. I think trauma is a large component of that type of thing.

When you're in danger, empathy seems to naturally decrease (along with compassion). I guess it's why people might hurt or kill someone in self defense. Or stealing/pillaging when starving. Like a temporary "mind blindness". Lack of empathy and compassion seems a programmed survival mechanism.

 

[milkboi]

When you're in danger, empathy seems to naturally decrease (along with compassion). I guess it's why people might hurt or kill someone in self defense. Or stealing/pillaging when starving. Like a temporary "mind blindness". Lack of empathy and compassion seems a programmed survival mechanism.

True. When energy levels are very low in general, my mentality shifts to „save yourself first“.

 

[gaze]

i’ve definitely gotten way more angry, idk if it’s it the peat diet but more so the increase in knowledge so we see a lot more of the ugliness of the world. it’s hard to be happy when you see people you love scarf down chicken tender and fries and suffer tremendous health problems. Or when the media tricks innocent people to eat fish and kale and that’s it. my anger seems at the world in general, the monetary drive behind pufas, etc. And in turn it’s hard to be happy when deep down your pissed and you can’t resolve that anger

 

[sunraiser]

I have never really been on a Peat diet (just had phases of including bits and bobs) but I feel an immensely strong sense of empathy.

I often think about how awful I have felt and realise how ******* lucky I am that I wasn't homeless in that time. How lucky I am that I had the time and space to recover and fail over and over again while learning. How lucky I am that I had a good start in life and face no discrimination.

I always think about the times before I felt awful. How I couldn't have ever imagined how bad it's possible to feel as it was so far outside the scope of my experiences.

It makes me give people the benefit of the doubt. They're probably going through something I've never felt. It also makes me far, far less tolerant of crimes of privilege though, especially those that constantly condemn others while taking and taking and taking.

I've become even more of a socialist as I've gotten older which I know goes against most of the non Euros on this board, but I find the general political stances here somewhat interesting. Whether good or bad, I don't want my empathy levels to change - I like being so self reflective and catching myself when I think unfair or reactionary thoughts.

 

[TheBeard]

I definitely agree that being too empathetic is bad. It will most likely lead to the type of selflessness that ends up having you become a doormat that other people use for their own gain, emotionally or otherwise. However, I'm finding it difficult to be respectful to my spouse, which is a bit of a problem. Lowering my testosterone seems like the obvious solution but I do powerlifting as a hobby and don't want to sacrifice my strength. Stuck between a rock and a hard place I guess.

You're far from having too far a testosterone level for normal interactions if you don't supplement with supraphysiological doses.
With all the EDC floating around, even if your levels are around 1000, they are only attaching to your receptors like someone from the 1950s who had levels of 500.
And those guys didn't go around breaking up with their gf all year round or being loners.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

You could be right. I've always done well on things that increased GABA. Theanine, niacinamide. I drink a lot of coffee and take over a gram of aspirin a day. There's probably more antagonists that I'm not aware of I might be taking. Maybe I'm just antagonizing my GABA too much. The problem is that I don't feel stressed until I feel "disrespected". Most people would say I'm very laid back... Until I'm not.

GABA raising substances help me brush things off a lot quicker and get on with life.

Compare that to when I was taking Diamant I would get this feeling of invincibility and aggression which could be good in certain circumstances but would prefer not to act like Ghengis Khan in hectic city life.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

You're far from having too far a testosterone level for normal interactions if you don't supplement with supraphysiological doses.
With all the EDC floating around, even if your levels are around 1000, they are only attaching to your receptors like someone from the 1950s who had levels of 500.
And those guys didn't go around breaking up with their gf all year round or being loners.

What do you mean breaking up with their gf all year round?

 

[Gone Peating]

Taking a break from luxury foods like meat and milk once or twice a week is probably a good idea, to help put everything in perspective

 

[Aymen]

high metabolism probably is what promotes generosity, empathy, faithfulness, creativity and all other good personality traits.

 

[LUH 3417]

Taking a break from luxury foods like meat and milk once or twice a week is probably a good idea, to help put everything in perspective

Curious why you think so

 

[opethfeldt]

You're far from having too far a testosterone level for normal interactions if you don't supplement with supraphysiological doses.
With all the EDC floating around, even if your levels are around 1000, they are only attaching to your receptors like someone from the 1950s who had levels of 500.
And those guys didn't go around breaking up with their gf all year round or being loners.

They also didn't have to deal with women on the pill haha.

 

[TheBeard]

They also didn't have to deal with women on the pill haha.

I'm seriously wondering if having sex with a girl on the pill without protection can have any estrogenic effect