Does The Ray Peat Lifestyle Promote Lack Of Empathy?

opethfeldt

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This is probably going to be a controversial post but it's something I'm struggling with and maybe I'm not alone. All it takes is a few minutes searching for "high testosterone low cortisol empathy" in Google to find numerous studies linking low cortisol and high testosterone to psychopathy and lack of empathy.

There seems to be this idea in this forum that the Ray Peat lifestyle leads to increased empathy from decreased serotonin, but if serotonin being low reduces cortisol, would that not predispose someone to said lack of empathy? There's also studies showing low serotonin increases aggression, but of the impulsive, reactive type, not the instrumental, planned aggression promoted by high serotonin.

I've noticed that I've become a bit of a d*** since I started Peating. Healthier, no doubt. But also way less caring and empathetic. My "fuse" is also way shorter and I feel adrenaline surging whenever I perceive my status being threatened. Have any of you experienced the same?
 

High_Prob

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Lowering stress hormones combined with healthy levels of neurosteroids (DHEA, Pregnenolone, Progesterone) should lead to appropriate/authentic levels of empathy...
 
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Summer

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I think too much empathy can be a bad thing. I’ve been high cortisol for years and have found myself being walked all over due to fear of hurting the feelings of others, even those who hate me. The less you care, the less you stress. Obviously there should be a balance, but I’d rather be just short of not giving a damn than be the nervous wreck I am today.
 
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opethfeldt

opethfeldt

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I think too much empathy can be a bad thing. I’ve been high cortisol for years and have found myself being walked all over due to fear of hurting the feelings of others, even those who hate me. The less you care, the less you stress. Obviously there should be a balance, but I’d rather be just short of not giving a damn than be the nervous wreck I am today.
I definitely agree that being too empathetic is bad. It will most likely lead to the type of selflessness that ends up having you become a doormat that other people use for their own gain, emotionally or otherwise. However, I'm finding it difficult to be respectful to my spouse, which is a bit of a problem. Lowering my testosterone seems like the obvious solution but I do powerlifting as a hobby and don't want to sacrifice my strength. Stuck between a rock and a hard place I guess.
 

kyle

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You might act differently or have different tendencies but morality is a conscious choice, meaning it is your willpower. If you lack willpower you might act out.
 
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opethfeldt

opethfeldt

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You might act differently or have different tendencies but morality is a conscious choice, meaning it is your willpower. If you lack willpower you might act out.
It's hard to have any self control during an adrenaline surge. That said, my self control keeps the aggression reigned in to just the verbal type. This may be a personal issue I just need to work on though. I spent most my life as a doormat. It's not surprising I'm finding this transition difficult.
 

Summer

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I definitely agree that being too empathetic is bad. It will most likely lead to the type of selflessness that ends up having you become a doormat that other people use for their own gain, emotionally or otherwise. However, I'm finding it difficult to be respectful to my spouse, which is a bit of a problem. Lowering my testosterone seems like the obvious solution but I do powerlifting as a hobby and don't want to sacrifice my strength. Stuck between a rock and a hard place I guess.

Ah. Yeah if it’s at the point where it’s affecting your relationship then it certainly is a problem. I hope you find the solution your looking for.
 

lampofred

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Not in my case. I think iron/estradiol/phosphate is what promotes a lack of empathy. I've actually become more empathetic but less emotional if that makes sense.
 

postman

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I seriously doubt your stress hormones are lower now if your fuse is shorter and you get so angry it's hard to control yourself. I think you're wrong about both testosterone and serotonin. All I've read abaout and experienced concerning testosterone says that men with higher tesosterone are able to cooperate better, better teamwork, and are more likely to help those who need it at least in their ingroup. I think testosterone could definitely make one more socially aggressive, assertive but not at all that it would make you less empathetic.

I also think high serotonin definitely leads to impulsive angry outbursts contrary to what you said. You could easily demonstrate this by taking an SSRI or another serotonergic compound. First couple of weeks you will be very emotional, angry, agitated, and so forth. Most people who kill themselves on SSRIs do it in the first couple of weeks because they get so ovewhelmed with uncontrollable negative emotions and agitation. Are you taking methylene blue or something like that?
 
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opethfeldt

opethfeldt

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I seriously doubt your stress hormones are lower now if your fuse is shorter and you get so angry it's hard to control yourself. I think you're wrong about both testosterone and serotonin. All I've read abaout and experienced concerning testosterone says that men with higher tesosterone are able to cooperate better, better teamwork, and are more likely to help those who need it at least in their ingroup. I think testosterone could definitely make one more socially aggressive, assertive but not at all that it would make you less empathetic.

I also think high serotonin definitely leads to impulsive angry outbursts contrary to what you said. You could easily demonstrate this by taking an SSRI or another serotonergic compound. First couple of weeks you will be very emotional, angry, agitated, and so forth. Most people who kill themselves on SSRIs do it in the first couple of weeks because they get so ovewhelmed with uncontrollable negative emotions and agitation. Are you taking methylene blue or something like that?
Yeah, it's totally possible my serotonin is still high. There's not a reliable way to test that, to my knowledge. I just assume that because my cortisol was tested low, as well as estrogen and I'm taking 2mg of cypro a day, that serotonin is low. I feel relaxed almost all the time. I just get angry easily about certain things.
 

lampofred

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I seriously doubt your stress hormones are lower now if your fuse is shorter and you get so angry it's hard to control yourself. I think you're wrong about both testosterone and serotonin. All I've read abaout and experienced concerning testosterone says that men with higher tesosterone are able to cooperate better, better teamwork, and are more likely to help those who need it at least in their ingroup. I think testosterone could definitely make one more socially aggressive, assertive but not at all that it would make you less empathetic.

Yes I think mainstream confuses testosterone with estradiol/nitric oxide. Estradiol/NO/low blood sugar are what cause aggression/adrenaline surges, whereas I think testosterone makes you level and cool-headed. But it's less that testosterone gives you control over your anger, more that nothing really agitates you.
 
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opethfeldt

opethfeldt

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Yes I think mainstream confuses testosterone with estradiol/nitric oxide. Estradiol/NO/low blood sugar are what cause aggression/adrenaline surges, whereas I think testosterone makes you level and cool-headed. But it's less that testosterone gives you control over your anger, more that nothing really agitates you.
What about the studies linking low serotonin and impulsive aggression, though? Estrogen promotes serotonin, so estrogen probably isn't high in those situations. I used to be heavily estrogen dominant and was docile as could be. If I had to guess, I'd say estrogen and serotonin promote a more emotional type of aggression resulting from hurt feelings whereas low estrogen and serotonin create aggression absent strong emotion. Sort of a male dominance thing.
 

kyle

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It's hard to have any self control during an adrenaline surge. That said, my self control keeps the aggression reigned in to just the verbal type. This may be a personal issue I just need to work on though. I spent most my life as a doormat. It's not surprising I'm finding this transition difficult.

Where we lack a rational conception of things, we resort to anger and other undesirable reactions. In other words, that dichotomy of doormat/anger are actually more alike than it seems.

When we know what the issues are, we can react more cooly and postively when they arise or be more proactive in solving problems in the first place.
 

postman

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What about the studies linking low serotonin and impulsive aggression, though? Estrogen promotes serotonin, so estrogen probably isn't high in those situations. I used to be heavily estrogen dominant and was docile as could be. If I had to guess, I'd say estrogen and serotonin promote a more emotional type of aggression resulting from hurt feelings whereas low estrogen and serotonin create aggression absent strong emotion. Sort of a male dominance thing.
Which specific studies are you talking about?
 

postman

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I meant is there any specific study you would like us to read, instead of this meta-review stuff.

Some of this stuff just looks rediculous, this is how one of the cited studies start
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LUH 3417

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I notice myself telling everyone they are responsible for their own lives and having a really hard time feeling compassion for depressed people. I wish they didn’t feel bad, but I just can’t empathize with them either.
 

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