Does Sourdough Bread Increase Lactic Acid?

[Lejeboca]

I used to do 100% Rye sourdough (which is a real challenge) and it was very difficult to work with.

I agree about rye sourdough being a challenge. I am not doing rye bread anymore.

My starter is 100% white flour. Do you find a whole wheat starter is healthier?

I reckon that the yeast has more diverse medium to feed on if it's from whole wheat flour. Since the starter is predigested, I'd assume that it has less unhealthy stuff that makes whole wheat typically less desirable that white flour. Of course, the PUFA of the whole wheat remains in the starter, I suppose... I'd be curious to test this hunch of mine, i.e., the more diverse medium. I will do a search and report back if I find anything. If anyone can chime in on comparing the starters from different flours, it will be great!

You should try making some english muffins. I never thought they seemed that exciting to make but my family has a New Years brunch

I will need still to graduate to that skill

 

[Bluebell]

Oh thanks!

Yah I can share my recipe, though I'm not sure it's ground breaking. I keep things as simple as possible. I'm not into all that fancy bread lore (bread making attracts a lot of obsessive compulsive people... I may be prone to this myself). I do all my baking on a scale in grams as I don't like to use a bunch of measuring utensils.

Thanks so much for your recipe, it's really appreciated. I'm also not into getting all artisan and complicated about it, I think that is what put me off from trying it before. I just want to keep it simple & your recipe sounds perfect. I'm in the UK so it's pretty cool here too, around -1 to 5 degrees. Thanks again for sharing!! :)

 

[saene]

I regularly make sourdough with white flour (no additives). I tend to add Energin to it to boost the b-vitamins since my kids eat it. Like @Lejeboca I have a levain I use and feed frequently. Im always tweaking my recipe but currently it involves a 24 hour initial rise followed by a 12 hour second rise. I was kneading in-between the two rises and using a banneton and clay cloche but the last time I didn't knead and used my pullman and the bread texture was fantastic. Recently I've been making sourdough English Muffins and they are amazing so I am probably going to be making those for a while. The English Muffins have milk in them instead of water which also adds a bit more nutrition (though you can make bread with milk. I tend to use coconut water for my bread) Next Im going to try crumpets as I believe the recipe is almost the same as English muffins but with twice the milk (so more like a batter instead of a dough). I also recently made some sourdough donuts for my kids as a holiday treat. You need to be a bit careful with your fat/starch combos if you don't wanna get fat An occasional treat is okay in my opinion.

In my experience traditional sourdough is not really all that sour, even with my 36 hour soak times. The store bought stuff usually has added acids to make it extra sour.

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Do you mind sharing your English muffin recipe? Looks fantastic!

 

[Kray]

Yes, but this is just of minor importance. The lactic acid lowers the pH, allowing the proteases in the sourdough strains to hydrolyze the immunogenic gluten peptides. Besides long peptides releasing γ-interferon, a few shorter peptides in gluten are exorphins—or exogenous morphine‐like peptides which behave similar to opiates. These have been shown to reduce the intestinal transit time by occupying human opiate receptors and cause psychological effects. These peptides have even been found in the cerebospinal fluid.

But these are just peptides, protein fragments; the biological activity of these peptides are eliminated once the peptide is broken down into individual amino acids, and some strains of lactobacteria have been shown to do this.

The gluten exorphins have also been shown to release prolactin, what is thought to occur through the δ-opioid receptor. So not only has wheat the intestine-destroying immunogenic protein fragments, it has a growth-stimulating opiate which also numbs and slows the intestines. These properties are responsible for the morphological and psychological changes seen in some wheat-eaters. But as previously noted, lactobacteria have been shown capable of completely hydrolyzing these peptides.

Since the gluten immune response is dominated by γ-interferon, cells had been tested for this cytokine with a gluten + Lactobaccili hydrolysis product. The results indicated that neither γ-interferon or interleukin-2 was released, proving that gluten can be made non‐immunogenic by a mix of bacteria:

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However, like all Carlo Rizzello articles, he had used a mixture of Aspergillus species in addition to the sourdough Lactobaccili. So although he had proved that Lactobaccili do have some of the enzymes capable of completely hydrolyzing these resistant proline bonds of wheat gliadin, you cannot say for certain based on his articles alone whether or not they could do it without Aspergillus species.

But they can, as had been shown by others. One strain alone was capable of completely hydrolzying the infamous 33‐mer, the most immunogenic gluten peptide. This strain of Lactobacillus casei could degrade it completely after twelve hours, but the results are variable between strains. I think it would be good to have a diverse culture of sourdough bacteria to increase the variety of enzymes present.

'The most active strain was L. casei IPLA12038, which reduced the peak area of the peptide by up to 82% within 8 h, and completely made it disappear within 12 h (Fig. 2, panel B).' ―Alvarez-Sieiro​

So yes, the strain of bacteria are certainly important. Each strain of bacteria have a different suite of enzymes which can potentially act on the most problematic aspect of wheat: the gliadin protein. Since free amino acids are created, sourdough tends to be a bit less elastic; but this is a small price to pay for a more interesting taste, less immunogenicity, and less opiate effect.

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More free amino acids necessarily means the concomitant reduction of the long peptide segments that release γ-interferon and prolactin. Less γ-interferon means less histamine and less prostaglandins, and a reduction in prolactin translates to less pregnant‐feminine growth patterns.

All strains are slightly different, and sourdough starter would have many strains. You'd expect some sourdough starters to be more effective than others

De Angelis, M. "Mechanism of degradation of immunogenic gluten epitopes from Triticum turgidum L. var. durum by sourdough lactobacilli and fungal proteases." Applied and environmental microbiology (2010)
Rizzello, C. "Characterization of the Bread Made with Durum Wheat Semolina Rendered Gluten Free by Sourdough Biotechnology in Comparison with Gluten‐Free Products." Journal of food science (2016).
Alvarez-Sieiro, P. "Screening sourdough samples for gliadin-degrading activity revealed L. casei strains able to individually metabolize the 33-mer peptide." Canadian journal of microbiology (2016)
Fanciulli, G. "Liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry assay for quantification of Gluten Exorphin B5 in cerebrospinal fluid." Journal of Chromatography (2007)
Nilsen, E. "Gluten induces an intestinal cytokine response strongly dominated by interferon gamma in patients with celiac disease." Gastroenterology (1998)
Fanciulli, G. "Gluten exorphin B5 stimulates prolactin secretion through opioid receptors located outside the blood-brain barrier." Life sciences (2005)
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Travis,

Do you know of any good starter kits with these beneficial bacteria you mention? I want to try making some sourdough bread. Any recommendations appreciated.

 

[Travis]

Travis,

Do you know of any good starter kits with these beneficial bacteria you mention? I want to try making some sourdough bread. Any recommendations appreciated.

You just need Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and wheat flour, and one preferably without iron. Most of the fun in shopping is in the pursuit, and I'd hate to deprive a person of the exciting search phase by recommending a particular distributor—and also because have absolutely no idea who carries the best one, or even whether-or-not it's even appropriate to assume there is a 'best one.' I would imagine that buying from a online bread store would be smart because they ought to have their own culture, one kept perpetually ongoing for months to years. This should nearly guarantee viable bacteria, while old warehoused powders sold by large corporations may not be very reliable in this regard. I think I remember reading one that there exists a store in San Francisco that has been maintaining the same sourdough culture for nearly a century; this is done by spiking the new batch with some of yesterday's, which still includes remnants from the day before. Estimating if there's any amino acids remaining from decades past could then be approached exponentially—i.e. = (¹⁄₁₀₀)ˣ—although the particular amino acid under consideration would matter. Some of them, like glutamate and aspartate, would be a bit less likely to be incorporated into the growing bacteria since they can be used for energy via The Krebs Cycle.

Items bought from Ebay always ship & arrive the fastest because sellers are obliged to maintain a high rating.

 

[tfcjesse]

Yea sprouted bread like Angelic bakehouse or Manna bread.

Just tried some of this stuff, the date/cinnamon loaf.. it's delicious. How much of this stuff should one realistically eat as part of their diet? 1-2 servings/day?

 

[ecstatichamster]

combine flour and water. Leave out in the room. A few days later, start replacing half the flour and adding more new flour, and water, to make it a batter type texture. In a week it will be smelling good and ready to make bread with.

 

[Aymen]

Oh thanks!

Yah I can share my recipe, though I'm not sure it's ground breaking. I keep things as simple as possible. I'm not into all that fancy bread lore (bread making attracts a lot of obsessive compulsive people... I may be prone to this myself). I do all my baking on a scale in grams as I don't like to use a bunch of measuring utensils.

Small loaf:
300g Flour
150g Water - or - Coconut water
90g Starter (50/50 Flour to Water by weight. I always measure when I feed the thing)
18g Olive oil or butter (Not a necessary ingredient but it creates a softer loaf and makes handling easier)
6g Salt (a gram or 2 more if you like it salty. Very easy to over salt or under salt bread IMO)

Large loaf:
500g Flour
250g Water
150g Starter
30g Fat
10g Salt

I either mix everything together all at once or I add the salt in after the first 24 hours. Normally in bread making they add the salt in after 30-60 minutes of the initial mix but I can't be bothered to do that anymore (I have stuff to do!). After 24 hours (or 12 if I am in a hurry) I knock down the dough and knead it. Usually the dough is quite relaxed and sticky so I have to add a bit of flour to avoid getting frustrated with the dough sticking to my hands. When I'm satisfied I throw it in the banneton and let it rise for 12 hours or so. I bake at 450 in a cloche (lid on) for 25-30 minutes and then remove the lid for 5 or so minutes to crust it a bit. Sometimes I use a pullman if I want a square loaf and I have started not kneading the dough and just throwing in the oiled pullman. The loaf is a different texture when I do this. It's sort of like a baguette/crumpet combination. The crumb was well developed so I think the long soak accomplishes the same thing as the kneading in some way. I'm not too schooled on bread science so I am not quite sure really.

EDIT: I should mention I am in Canada and it's a wee bit cold right now. If you live somewhere hot then 24 hours might be a bit much. You would have to adjust the rise time if it's like 100 degrees outside. I doubt you could go past a 12 hour initial rise, though I am not sure really. You could add a tablespoon of sugar to give the yeast more food if you're worried about a poor second rise.

hey , do you think it's a good option to add baker's yeast to the dough for extra vitamins ?
ok thanks for the recipe and i don't know what happened but i have made white flour with hot water and a little of salt and baker's yeast and covered it and let it 18 hours ( the temperature of the room was around 20 degree Celsius) and after 18 hours when i uncovered it , it didn't rise and then i cooked it for 30 min and it didn't rise too and it was hard , it became a little brown but i couldn't eat it , it was like the stone , what is the mistake i made?

 

[schultz]

hey , do you think it's a good option to add baker's yeast to the dough for extra vitamins ?
ok thanks for the recipe and i don't know what happened but i have made white flour with hot water and a little of salt and baker's yeast and covered it and let it 18 hours ( the temperature of the room was around 20 degree Celsius) and after 18 hours when i uncovered it , it didn't rise and then i cooked it for 30 min and it didn't rise too and it was hard , it became a little brown but i couldn't eat it , it was like the stone , what is the mistake i made?

What kind of starter do you have? Is it wild or did you purchase a starter?

I prefer not to use a quick yeast, but you can if you want to ensure a good rise. You might need to change the way the bread is made, like adding a portion of the flour a couple hours before baking as quick yeast have a much quicker rise and will need some food

Edit: oh I don't know the vitamin levels, if any, in bakers yeast. It might have some estrogenic effects as well, but again I am not completely sure.

 

[Aymen]

What kind of starter do you have? Is it wild or did you purchase a starter?

I prefer not to use a quick yeast, but you can if you want to ensure a good rise. You might need to change the way the bread is made, like adding a portion of the flour a couple hours before baking as quick yeast have a much quicker rise and will need some food

Edit: oh I don't know the vitamin levels, if any, in bakers yeast. It might have some estrogenic effects as well, but again I am not completely sure.

Wooden bowls , like this one https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/172803840183-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
it's a super fast instant dry yeast , what about adding the yeast 1 hour before baking ?
i mean i just put 1 cup of flour and 1 cup of water and a little salt , cover it for 17 hours and then add the yeast to the dough , then i wait 1 hours then i bake ?

i think all yeasts contain estrogen , maybe baker's yeast has lower estrogen than brewer's yeast.
"Yeast contains a considerable amount of estrogen, and the water extract probably leaves much of that in the insoluble starchy residue.” RP

from Wikipedia :
Baker's Yeast is responsible for fermentation. It is the yeast species Saccharomyces cerevisiae (S. cerevisiae) that converts carbohydrates to carbon dioxide and alcohol during fermentation. It is this same species, found in baker’s yeast, that converts the sugar in dough into carbon dioxide and ethanol, causing the bread to rise, or leaven.

the conversion of carbs to carbon dioxide during fermentation is what got my attention to use the yeast , but my first idea was to make a bread with much less gluten than regular one.

 

[Aymen]

Wooden bowls , like this one https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/172803840183-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
it's a super fast instant dry yeast , what about adding the yeast 1 hour before baking ?
i mean i just put 1 cup of flour and 1 cup of water and a little salt , cover it for 17 hours and then add the yeast to the dough , then i wait 1 hours then i bake ?

i will make a search about baker's yeast and estrogen.

 

[schultz]

.
Oh cool, so it does contain vitamins like the other yeasts, not that you're using 100g of yeast in your bread, but you would still be getting a reasonable amount from it I would imagine. I'm not too worried about the estrogen, but I was just throwing it out there as something to consider. Though, traditional sourdough is made with yeast as well.

So that bowl is impregnated with a starter or something? The link only showed a picture so I am just trying to follow along here.

Yah it would depend on the yeast as to when you add it. The very quick one will probably be 45 min to 1 hour. It would probably work the way you describe. I would be tempted to mix the yeast with the water and add a tablespoon of sugar then add all of it to the bread. The sugar will ensure a good rise. If you try it let me know how it works out! Maybe I'll fool around with some sourdough recipes again. My starter died though so I need to get a new one (RIP little guys).

I need to get some unenriched flour though, which you cannot buy in Canada (for a while I was getting some from the grocery store made by an Italian company, but it turns out it was just a fluke and they realized they were not supposed to be selling it. I emailed them and confirmed this lol) I also tried sifting whole wheat flour (it's unenriched), which removed a tremendous amount of junk, but the bread still tasted "whole wheaty". I also tried grinding my own and sifting it (lots of work and worse results than sifting store bought whole wheat, though you can use sprouted grains so that is a benefit). It's too much work for a food that is really not adding much to my health (it adds plenty to my happiness though, I guess that counts as health)

Maybe I'll order some flour from the States that has no iron added. As long as it is not too expensive...

 

[Aymen]

.
Oh cool, so it does contain vitamins like the other yeasts, not that you're using 100g of yeast in your bread, but you would still be getting a reasonable amount from it I would imagine. I'm not too worried about the estrogen, but I was just throwing it out there as something to consider. Though, traditional sourdough is made with yeast as well.

So that bowl is impregnated with a starter or something? The link only showed a picture so I am just trying to follow along here.

Yah it would depend on the yeast as to when you add it. The very quick one will probably be 45 min to 1 hour. It would probably work the way you describe. I would be tempted to mix the yeast with the water and add a tablespoon of sugar then add all of it to the bread. The sugar will ensure a good rise. If you try it let me know how it works out! Maybe I'll fool around with some sourdough recipes again. My starter died though so I need to get a new one (RIP little guys).

I need to get some unenriched flour though, which you cannot buy in Canada (for a while I was getting some from the grocery store made by an Italian company, but it turns out it was just a fluke and they realized they were not supposed to be selling it. I emailed them and confirmed this lol) I also tried sifting whole wheat flour (it's unenriched), which removed a tremendous amount of junk, but the bread still tasted "whole wheaty". I also tried grinding my own and sifting it (lots of work and worse results than sifting store bought whole wheat, though you can use sprouted grains so that is a benefit). It's too much work for a food that is really not adding much to my health (it adds plenty to my happiness though, I guess that counts as health)

Maybe I'll order some flour from the States that has no iron added. As long as it is not too expensive...

i think it adds happiness to your health because you are making your kids feel good when you cook to them right ?
yes too much work for a food that doesn't add much to health , but once a week is fine in my opinion.
just some coffee when eating bread will lower iron absorption (i think all commercial flours contain added iron).
yes i will putt 10g of yeast and see the results.
that's the wooden bowl in the picture , it looks like mine and i used to put the dough there , but i think it's big , i should change it to smaller one, maybe it will rise.
thanks , i will add the sugar and see the results , i will try it soon and comment again.