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Does Sourdough Bread Increase Lactic Acid?

Discussion in 'Starches, Fiber, Legumes' started by Joeyd, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. Joeyd

    Joeyd Member

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    i seem to tolerate sourdough bread far far far better than any of the crap sold in stores, i have zero gut issues, no bloating and belly is actually a lot flatter after sourdough.

    but i read sourdough increases lactic acid? is this true?
     
  2. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    there isn't much lactic acid in sourdough bread. There is a little, to give it flavor, but I doubt it's that much. I suppose it could be though.
     
  3. Birdie

    Birdie Member

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    Sourdough is the one RP mentions as safest if you're eating bread. White sourdough. It sounds like it's working for you.
     
  4. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    Anybody regular bake bread, particularly with gluten-free flour?

    @Westside PUFAs

    Dost thou eat bread?

     
  5. Lejeboca

    Lejeboca Member

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    I do. But not with gluten-free flour. I have my own levain (sourdough starter) that lives with me for about 10 years already, and which I feed every 4 days on average.
    Once started peating, I switched to white flour (but the starter is still whole wheat) and adjusted the recipe a bit for the flour-water mixture to 'macerate' overnight. As before, the rising process is ~12 hours +2 hours after kneading and ~1.30 hour for proofing.
    One can do a (almost) no-knead bread with 12-18h rise for all the ingredients (starter, flour, water, salt) mixed at once before rising.

    In fact, this type of bread is the only one I eat. (After all, there should be a surface to place cheese or spread butter on. LOL)
     
  6. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    Thanks for the info. Have you tried a bread-machine, and wouldn't that eliminate the knead for kneading and you could just put part of the starter and mixture into the machine and boom, there's your bread?

    Personally, I love potato bread and would probably eat it just as often.
     
  7. Lejeboca

    Lejeboca Member

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    I've tried a bread making machine, but that was with dry yeast. I don't know how will it work with a sourdough starter...

    I do use a 'machine' to knead the dough a la Kitchen-Aid. 15 min and kneading is done. But I'd rather do the rest---mixing, shaping, baking---myself, which is part of the fun :):.

    Do you have a recipe for the potato bread that you eat? I'd be curious to make it.
    Thanks!
     
  8. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    My family makes it for me, and my aunt said she just uses a general recipe.

    I ordered some instant mashed potatoes to use in place of whole potatoes.

    Here's one with high ratings:
    • 1 tablespoon instant yeast
    • 1/2 cup sugar
    • 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 cups lukewarm water or potato water (water in which potatoes have been boiled)*
    • 3/4 cup (12 tablespoons) softened butter
    • 2 1/2 teaspoons salt
    • 2 large eggs
    • 1 cup mashed potatoes (from about 1/2 pound potatoes)
    • 6 1/2 cups King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour
    • *Use the lesser amount of water in summer, or in humid weather conditons; the greater amount in winter, or when it's dry out.
    • Add all ingredients to list
    Directions
    1. Note: As of 8/22/13, this recipe has been amended slightly, as follows: flour was increased by 1/2 cup, to allay excessive dough stickiness; sugar was reduced by 1 tablespoon (from 9 to 8 tablespoons); and salt was reduced by 2 teaspoons (from 4 1/2 teaspoons to 2 1/2 teaspoons). In addition, the recipe instructions have been simplified; the pan size amended; and the baking temperature lowered from 375°F to 350°F, to help prevent over-browning.
    2. Beat together all of the dough ingredients, using the flat beater paddle of your stand mixer, or your bread machine set on the dough cycle. If you're using a stand mixer, beat the mixture for 4 to 5 minutes at medium-high speed, stopping the mixer to scrape down the sides and bottom of the bowl twice. The mixture should start to become smooth and a bit shiny.
    3. Switch to the dough hook, and knead the dough at medium speed for 7 minute, stopping to scrape the dough into a ball twice; it may or may not start to clear the sides of the bowl on its own. If you're using a bread machine, let it go through its entire kneading cycle, but don't let it rise; continue with step 3, below.
    4. Scrape the dough into a ball, and place it in a lightly greased bowl or large (greased) plastic bag. Refrigerate overnight, or for up to 24 hours.
    5. Remove the dough from the refrigerator, divide it in half, and shape it into two 9" logs. Place them each in a lightly greased 9" x 5" loaf pan.
    6. Cover the pans with clear shower caps (first choice) or lightly greased plastic wrap, and allow the dough to rise until it's crowned about 1" over the rim of the pan. Since the dough is cold, this will take anywhere from 2 to 4 hours. Towards the end of the rising time, preheat the oven to 350°F.
    7. Bake the loaves for 25 minutes. Tent with aluminum foil, and bake for an additional 15 to 20 minutes, until the bread is a deep golden brown, and a digital thermometer inserted into the center of one of the loaves registers at least 190°F.
    8. Remove the bread from the oven, and place the pans on a rack. After 5 minutes, gently turn the loaves out onto the rack to cool completely.
    9. Store, tightly wrapped, at room temperature for several days, or up to a week in cool/dry weather; for longer storage, wrap well and freeze
     
  9. Lejeboca

    Lejeboca Member

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    Thanks much @DaveFoster ! I like the 'shower cap' as bread loaf cover idea.
     
  10. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    Yea sprouted bread like Angelic bakehouse or Manna bread.
     
  11. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    Thanks for the response and info.
     
  12. schultz

    schultz Member

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    I regularly make sourdough with white flour (no additives). I tend to add Energin to it to boost the b-vitamins since my kids eat it. Like @Lejeboca I have a levain I use and feed frequently. Im always tweaking my recipe but currently it involves a 24 hour initial rise followed by a 12 hour second rise. I was kneading in-between the two rises and using a banneton and clay cloche but the last time I didn't knead and used my pullman and the bread texture was fantastic. Recently I've been making sourdough English Muffins and they are amazing so I am probably going to be making those for a while. The English Muffins have milk in them instead of water which also adds a bit more nutrition (though you can make bread with milk. I tend to use coconut water for my bread) Next Im going to try crumpets as I believe the recipe is almost the same as English muffins but with twice the milk (so more like a batter instead of a dough). I also recently made some sourdough donuts for my kids as a holiday treat. You need to be a bit careful with your fat/starch combos if you don't wanna get fat :lol: An occasional treat is okay in my opinion.

    In my experience traditional sourdough is not really all that sour, even with my 36 hour soak times. The store bought stuff usually has added acids to make it extra sour.

    Bread.jpeg

    doughnuts.jpeg

    muffins.jpeg
     
  13. Bobber Anderson

    Bobber Anderson Member

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    I bought some today.

    No way Jose is this 'semi ok' for me? It tastes too nice. What gives?
     
  14. Bluebell

    Bluebell Member

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    Your sourdough looks amazing (& the other yummies too). The commercial sourdough around here only does a 12 hour process. I'd love to do my own with a 24 plus 12 rise like yours, and maybe a starter from ebay.

    Would you be willing to share your recipe at all?
     
  15. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    Looks great, thank you.
     
  16. schultz

    schultz Member

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    Oh thanks!

    Yah I can share my recipe, though I'm not sure it's ground breaking. I keep things as simple as possible. I'm not into all that fancy bread lore (bread making attracts a lot of obsessive compulsive people... I may be prone to this myself). I do all my baking on a scale in grams as I don't like to use a bunch of measuring utensils.

    Small loaf:
    300g Flour
    150g Water - or - Coconut water
    90g Starter (50/50 Flour to Water by weight. I always measure when I feed the thing)
    18g Olive oil or butter (Not a necessary ingredient but it creates a softer loaf and makes handling easier)
    6g Salt (a gram or 2 more if you like it salty. Very easy to over salt or under salt bread IMO)

    Large loaf:
    500g Flour
    250g Water
    150g Starter
    30g Fat
    10g Salt

    I either mix everything together all at once or I add the salt in after the first 24 hours. Normally in bread making they add the salt in after 30-60 minutes of the initial mix but I can't be bothered to do that anymore (I have stuff to do!). After 24 hours (or 12 if I am in a hurry) I knock down the dough and knead it. Usually the dough is quite relaxed and sticky so I have to add a bit of flour to avoid getting frustrated with the dough sticking to my hands. When I'm satisfied I throw it in the banneton and let it rise for 12 hours or so. I bake at 450 in a cloche (lid on) for 25-30 minutes and then remove the lid for 5 or so minutes to crust it a bit. Sometimes I use a pullman if I want a square loaf and I have started not kneading the dough and just throwing in the oiled pullman. The loaf is a different texture when I do this. It's sort of like a baguette/crumpet combination. The crumb was well developed so I think the long soak accomplishes the same thing as the kneading in some way. I'm not too schooled on bread science so I am not quite sure really.

    EDIT: I should mention I am in Canada and it's a wee bit cold right now. If you live somewhere hot then 24 hours might be a bit much. You would have to adjust the rise time if it's like 100 degrees outside. I doubt you could go past a 12 hour initial rise, though I am not sure really. You could add a tablespoon of sugar to give the yeast more food if you're worried about a poor second rise.
     
  17. Travis

    Travis Member

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    Yes, but this is just of minor importance. The lactic acid lowers the pH, allowing the proteases in the sourdough strains to hydrolyze the immunogenic gluten peptides. Besides long peptides releasing γ-interferon, a few shorter peptides in gluten are exorphins—or exogenous morphine‐like peptides which behave similar to opiates. These have been shown to reduce the intestinal transit time by occupying human opiate receptors and cause psychological effects. These peptides have even been found in the cerebospinal fluid.

    But these are just peptides, protein fragments; the biological activity of these peptides are eliminated once the peptide is broken down into individual amino acids, and some strains of lactobacteria have been shown to do this.

    The gluten exorphins have also been shown to release prolactin, what is thought to occur through the δ-opioid receptor. So not only has wheat the intestine-destroying immunogenic protein fragments, it has a growth-stimulating opiate which also numbs and slows the intestines. These properties are responsible for the morphological and psychological changes seen in some wheat-eaters. But as previously noted, lactobacteria have been shown capable of completely hydrolyzing these peptides.

    Since the gluten immune response is dominated by γ-interferon, cells had been tested for this cytokine with a gluten + Lactobaccili hydrolysis product. The results indicated that neither γ-interferon or interleukin-2 was released, proving that gluten can be made non‐immunogenic by a mix of bacteria:

    gluten.png

    However, like all Carlo Rizzello articles, he had used a mixture of Aspergillus species in addition to the sourdough Lactobaccili. So although he had proved that Lactobaccili do have some of the enzymes capable of completely hydrolyzing these resistant proline bonds of wheat gliadin, you cannot say for certain based on his articles alone whether or not they could do it without Aspergillus species.

    But they can, as had been shown by others. One strain alone was capable of completely hydrolzying the infamous 33‐mer, the most immunogenic gluten peptide. This strain of Lactobacillus casei could degrade it completely after twelve hours, but the results are variable between strains. I think it would be good to have a diverse culture of sourdough bacteria to increase the variety of enzymes present.

    'The most active strain was L. casei IPLA12038, which reduced the peak area of the peptide by up to 82% within 8 h, and completely made it disappear within 12 h (Fig. 2, panel B).' ―Alvarez-Sieiro

    So yes, the strain of bacteria are certainly important. Each strain of bacteria have a different suite of enzymes which can potentially act on the most problematic aspect of wheat: the gliadin protein. Since free amino acids are created, sourdough tends to be a bit less elastic; but this is a small price to pay for a more interesting taste, less immunogenicity, and less opiate effect.

    gluten2.png

    More free amino acids necessarily means the concomitant reduction of the long peptide segments that release γ-interferon and prolactin. Less γ-interferon means less histamine and less prostaglandins, and a reduction in prolactin translates to less pregnant‐feminine growth patterns.

    All strains are slightly different, and sourdough starter would have many strains. You'd expect some sourdough starters to be more effective than others


    De Angelis, M. "Mechanism of degradation of immunogenic gluten epitopes from Triticum turgidum L. var. durum by sourdough lactobacilli and fungal proteases." Applied and environmental microbiology (2010)
    Rizzello, C. "Characterization of the Bread Made with Durum Wheat Semolina Rendered Gluten Free by Sourdough Biotechnology in Comparison with Gluten‐Free Products." Journal of food science (2016).
    Alvarez-Sieiro, P. "Screening sourdough samples for gliadin-degrading activity revealed L. casei strains able to individually metabolize the 33-mer peptide." Canadian journal of microbiology (2016)
    Fanciulli, G. "Liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry assay for quantification of Gluten Exorphin B5 in cerebrospinal fluid." Journal of Chromatography (2007)
    Nilsen, E. "Gluten induces an intestinal cytokine response strongly dominated by interferon gamma in patients with celiac disease." Gastroenterology (1998)
    Fanciulli, G. "Gluten exorphin B5 stimulates prolactin secretion through opioid receptors located outside the blood-brain barrier." Life sciences (2005)

     
  18. Fractality

    Fractality Member

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    Manna bread is insanely good. Great texture, good protein, zero fat. My only concerns would be the listed iron content and perhaps gluten however I don't think gluten (especially from sprouted grains) is a problem for me. I find the bread very filling and leaves me with a steady lasting energy. I also eat these muffins (Ezekiel 4:9 Cinnamon Raisin Sprouted Whole Grain English Muffins). Have you tried those?
     
  19. Lejeboca

    Lejeboca Member

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    Thanks @schultz for the recipe! I will try it out: I also like as basic as possible, so I might skip fat. Your bread looks amazing !
    Is your starter also 100% white flour ?
     
  20. schultz

    schultz Member

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    Thanks!

    The fat makes the texture worse in my opinion. I don't particularly like it super soft but my wife likes it like that. She also doesn't like it crusty so I stopped doing that as well lol. I do enjoy easier handling though, and I think the fat helps with that. I used to do 100% Rye sourdough (which is a real challenge) and it was very difficult to work with. I would also grind the rye myself. Yep life is simpler now. I am learning to keep things simple as I get older.

    My starter is 100% white flour. Do you find a whole wheat starter is healthier?

    You should try making some english muffins. I never thought they seemed that exciting to make but my family has a New Years brunch tradition of having eggs benedict + champagne and I like to bring something to events so I decided to make sourdough english muffins and they are really good! I made half the batch with romano cheese, tarragon, onion and garlic powder and they were awesome. What's nice about them is they are simply fried. Also I feel like they last longer than bread. After a week they tasted even better than when I originally made them whereas I find the sourdough bread is best the first day.
     
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