Does Processed Sugar Use Magnesium?

Giraffe

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Joined
Jun 20, 2015
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3,730
Derek said:
post 113778
Giraffe said:
post 113771
Derek said:
post 113649
Daimyo said:
post 113603
Derek said:
post 113465 [highlight=yellow]Taking sugar lowers cortisol, basically making you hypothyroid, and even more zinc deficient.[/highlight] So over time this can cause serious issues. I have seen this with fruitarians and high carb vegan/vegetarians. Now, you are probably much better off seeing as you eat meat routinely, I was just explaining the relationship between cortisol/sugar/thyroid/zinc.

Can you elaborate on that please?

When you have high cortisol it's an adaptive/protective response by the body. It happens when you are zinc deficient/hypothyroid, cortisol temporarily can increase temps, pulse and metabolic rate; that's why high cortisol can make you warm/hot, have high heart rate, etc... So if high cortisol is adaptive to a zinc deficient/hypo metabolic state, taking sugar to lower it; without correcting the initial cause of the high cortisol, is going to cause issues long term. Sugar does lower cortisol, so does zinc. I'm just saying it's better to eat zinc and lower it, than to take a chemical which lowers it, but makes the initial cause (zinc deficiency) worse!
Cortisol functions to increase blood sugar through gluconeogenesis (= generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate carbon substrates). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

So ingesting carbs looks like a promising way to prevent cortisol raising in the first place. Don't you think so? And since fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, fruits and table sugar are preferable over starch. (see Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context)

I already said I agree sugar lowers cortisol. But it doesn't address the reason you had high cortisol in the first place. No I don't think fruit/sugar are better than starch because you need insulin to tolerate/handle carbohydrate. So something that lowers insulin is going to make it harder to tolerate the carbs. That's why most people I know tolerate starch better than sugar, more insulin to process it. I have applied this to real people in the real world.
I resume:

1. The diet should provide adequate amounts of nutrients including zinc.
2. Your claim that sugar depletes zinc via raised insulin in unsubstantiated.

I would like to add that Ray Peat recommends to have carbs, protein and fat together.

RP: The amino acids in the protein themselves are strong stimulants of the insulin secretion and when you don't take in sugar, the insulin to dispose of the protein will lower your blood sugar and to prevent the blood sugar going down you tend to produce either adrenalin or cortisol or both. And if your liver didn't have the glycogen stored to release glucose under the influence of adrenalin, then you depend on cortisol to keep your blood sugar steady and cortisol activates the conversion of protein to sugar and fat and so you've destroyed a big part of the protein that you've just eaten.

KMUD Interview: Sugar Myth 2 (2011)

Regarding starch vs. fructose, thyroid function

Question: Someone with hypothyroidism and low cholesterol, what can their link be there?

RP: Probably eating too much starch. That’s the commonest cause of that pattern. Fructose in particular acts very much like T3. Both glucose and fructose increase the conversion of the inactive thyroxine to the active T3. They do several things to increase the thyroid activity, lowering the stress hormone as well as increasing the active thyroid hormone and the energy provided by both the glucose and the T3 in the liver will give it the energy to produce the cholesterol that is needed if you are eating enough sugar and not producing toxins in the intestines, by eating hard to digest fibrous foods.

Int: So they can replace their starchy carbohydrates with fruit and honey in combination with protein, so it’s not just sugar on it’s own and that would help with their liver, increase thyroid hormone and increase their cholesterol.

RP: Yeah and all of the sugary fruits come with a very high concentration of potassium and other minerals that help to metabolise the sugar in a safe way so you don’t turn it into fat.

KMUD Interview: Sugar Myths 1 (2011)
 
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DaveFoster

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Portland, Oregon
Pretty sure everything in the body uses magnesium in one form or another, seeing how it's implicated in cellular respiration. The real question is, what's the use of unused magnesium without any sugar to use it upon?
 

Wilfrid

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Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
723
Giraffe said:
post 113764
Derek said:
post 113644 The pancreas has to produce insulin in order to handle sugar. The nutrients that are needed by the pancreas to produce insulin are zinc and manganese; so eating sugar will deplete you of these two minerals, as well as stress your pancreas. As I said, I saw the ramifications of this most in high carb vegans and fruitarians, who had little to no zinc intake. How much red meat do you have to eat to offset the effects of sugar I'm not sure, and if your stressing your pancreas with large amounts of refined sugar, it's going to impair your digestion of meat/zinc because the pancreas is vital to protein digestion.
The diet of vegans is high in phytate (found in nuts, grains and legumes), which is a potent inhibitor of zinc absorption.

I agree that zinc is needed for insulin processing, but why do you think that zinc is lost? Do you have a reference?

If I remember my lecture correctly, studies made by Morris and Harland (1985) compared whole bran muffins to dephytinized ones and found no differences in mineral balances. It seems that subjects consuming the phytate-containing whole bran muffins showed reduced iron, zinc, manganese, calcium and copper absorption during the first 5 days but for the next left 10 days had greater absorption of these same minerals than the dephytinized bran muffin group. Other studies made by Kelsay et al ( 1987 ) and Prather et al ( 1987 ) suggest that the body may show a positive adaptation with time to factors which bind minerals.
For more information about it, Steven L. Ink has wrote an entire chapter ( chapter 10, from page 253 to 264 in the book " Nutrient interactions " by Bodwell and Erdman ) on the subject: " Fiber-Mineral and Fiber-Vitamin interactions "

As for the zinc/insulin thing, in the book " Zinc biochemistry ", the author mentionned a study made by Engelbart and Kief (1970) where acute stimulation of insulin secretion ( in rats ) reduces the zinc content of the pancreatic beta cells : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4190078
If you want to know more about this, you can go to bookzz to get the book and read chapter 5.3 ( from page 106 to page 109). A lot of interesting informations.
 
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milk_lover

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Aug 15, 2015
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1,909
Sugar, from my own experience, can deplete some vitamins and minerals. It would make sense really if you look at sugar as a pro-metabolism substance. Ray Peat advises to take magnesium with thyroid (I have seen this in the forum) and thyroid, like sugar, is a pro-metabolism substance. And if you look at metabolism as an energy, then magnesium is involved in ATP. Even if sugar does not deplete magnesium, it won't hurt to eat magnesium rich food and/or take non-allergic magnesium supplement like transdermal magnesium oil.
 

Makrosky

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Derek, RP has said potassium (which is greatly contained in fruits) is kind of a surrogate for insulin. It helps the body process the sugar from the fruits sparing insulin. So your equation fruit->insulin->zinc+manganese deficiency might be true only in a pure frutarian diet. It's written in the book "Nutrition for Women" if someone wants to check it.
 

Wilfrid

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Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
723
Makrosky said:
post 113862 Derek, RP has said potassium (which is greatly contained in fruits) is kind of a surrogate for insulin. It helps the body process the sugar from the fruits sparing insulin. So your equation fruit->insulin->zinc+manganese deficiency might be true only in a pure frutarian diet. It's written in the book "Nutrition for Women" if someone wants to check it.

Ray often makes reference to William Budd and P.A Piorry about diabetes treatment. I can't speak much about Budd since I did not manage to put my hand on his book.
However, I got the book written by the french Pierre Alphonse Piorry, " la médecine du bon sens ", where he described his successful approach to treat diabetic patients with therapeutic amount of white sugar ( sometimes up to 500-600 grams of it ), starch and drastic reduction of water intake ( Matt Stone? ) as well as low protein amount. ( " Glucosurrhée; traitement " pages 291-299 in " La médecine du bon sens " ,1867 ).
Apparently mostly refined sugar and starches ( he didn't mention which but wrote defavorably about gluten ) was the tools used in his medical practice.
No need of potassium or added minerals substances to metabolize ( pure white :eek: ) sugar efficiently, at least according to his writtings and his successful treated patients. No zinc supplementation, no destruction of the exocrine and endocrine pancreas functions. I don't know much about his british fellow Budd ( he made references to a same medical approach of diabetes used by british doctors in London ( page 298 ) without mentioning names ), though.
As for " Nutrition for women ", there are still obscur quotes made by Ray in this book.....
E.g, sardines ( page 48 ) as being a very good sources of protein for people with enteritis, colitis, crohn's disease that should not interfere with thyroid function (?!). The last time I checked sardines were very very good sources of PUFA......
 
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D

Derek

Guest
BingDing said:
post 113803
Derek said:
post 113356 White sugar causes you to waste most vitamins and minerals; mainly B-Vitamins, Potassium, Magnesium, Zinc and manganese. Sugar raises CO2 in the blood, you need bicarbonates to buffer it; so your body dips into your alkaline mineral stores. You eat sugar it increases the pancreas's production of insulin, which is dependent on zinc and manganese; so you can see how sugar depletes you of minerals. BTW, it has nothing to do with an increased metabolic rate. Sugar just puts a strain on your body causing you to waste minerals/vitamins in order to process it. You mentioned sugared milk, lets look at the pancreas. Calcium depletes you of zinc. Sugar depletes you of manganese and zinc. Pancreas needs zinc/manganese to produce insulin. You can see how sugared milk is death to the pancreas.

Also, if sugar wastes magnesium, one could should wonder if it's really pro-thyroid as everyone says. Ray says thyroid/good metabolic rate allow the body to retain magnesium, hypothyroidism causes people to waste magnesium; so what does that make you think of white sugar?

I have a hard time understanding your perspective, Derek. Do you have any references for another "sugar is bad" post?

Sucrose is sucrose, whether it is in a five pound bag or a ripe fruit. Glucose + O2 -> CO2 + ATP is what makes multi-cellular life possible, that is considered a good thing. Buffering blood ph is also perfectly normal, and on an RP type program so is getting adequate vitamins, minerals, and amino acids to produce all the co-factors, hormones, neurotransmitters, immune factors, etc for healthy homeostasis.

There are numerous RP quotes about sugar being beneficial, you can find them if you try. I only post this because I worry about new people buying into such a simplistic and erroneous perspective.

Well if you have a hard time understanding/believing what I'm saying, then no references are going to change your mind. I explained about as simply as I could the way sugar interacts with the pancreas. There are also RP quotes about sugar being a temporary therapeutic tool, about sugar being to low in nutrients, etc... I don't really need to find the quotes as I've spoken with him about this issue many times. When I talk about lowering sugar/calcium intake and concentrating on zinc, manganese, magnesium; you find that erroneous?
 
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Wilfrid

Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
723
Derek said:
post 113883
BingDing said:
post 113803
Derek said:
post 113356 White sugar causes you to waste most vitamins and minerals; mainly B-Vitamins, Potassium, Magnesium, Zinc and manganese. Sugar raises CO2 in the blood, you need bicarbonates to buffer it; so your body dips into your alkaline mineral stores. You eat sugar it increases the pancreas's production of insulin, which is dependent on zinc and manganese; so you can see how sugar depletes you of minerals. BTW, it has nothing to do with an increased metabolic rate. Sugar just puts a strain on your body causing you to waste minerals/vitamins in order to process it. You mentioned sugared milk, lets look at the pancreas. Calcium depletes you of zinc. Sugar depletes you of manganese and zinc. Pancreas needs zinc/manganese to produce insulin. You can see how sugared milk is death to the pancreas.

Also, if sugar wastes magnesium, one could should wonder if it's really pro-thyroid as everyone says. Ray says thyroid/good metabolic rate allow the body to retain magnesium, hypothyroidism causes people to waste magnesium; so what does that make you think of white sugar?

I have a hard time understanding your perspective, Derek. Do you have any references for another "sugar is bad" post?

Sucrose is sucrose, whether it is in a five pound bag or a ripe fruit. Glucose + O2 -> CO2 + ATP is what makes multi-cellular life possible, that is considered a good thing. Buffering blood ph is also perfectly normal, and on an RP type program so is getting adequate vitamins, minerals, and amino acids to produce all the co-factors, hormones, neurotransmitters, immune factors, etc for healthy homeostasis.

There are numerous RP quotes about sugar being beneficial, you can find them if you try. I only post this because I worry about new people buying into such a simplistic and erroneous perspective.

Well if you have a hard time understanding/believing what I'm saying, then no references are going to change your mind. I explained about as simply as I could the way sugar interacts with the pancreas. There are also RP quotes about sugar being a temporary therapeutic tool, about sugar being to low in nutrients, etc... I don't really need to find the quotes as I've spoken with him about this issue many times. When I talk about lowering sugar/calcium intake and concentrating on zinc, manganese, magnesium; you find that erroneous?

Replace magnesium for selenium and you have the 3 most important minerals ( besides calcium ) according to Dr Carey Reams and his followers ( especially A. Beddoe).
Do you have, by chance, any connections with the RBTI therapeutic approach?
 
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D

Derek

Guest
Giraffe said:
post 113804
Derek said:
post 113778
Giraffe said:
post 113771
Derek said:
post 113649
Daimyo said:
post 113603
Derek said:
post 113465 [highlight=yellow]Taking sugar lowers cortisol, basically making you hypothyroid, and even more zinc deficient.[/highlight] So over time this can cause serious issues. I have seen this with fruitarians and high carb vegan/vegetarians. Now, you are probably much better off seeing as you eat meat routinely, I was just explaining the relationship between cortisol/sugar/thyroid/zinc.

Can you elaborate on that please?

When you have high cortisol it's an adaptive/protective response by the body. It happens when you are zinc deficient/hypothyroid, cortisol temporarily can increase temps, pulse and metabolic rate; that's why high cortisol can make you warm/hot, have high heart rate, etc... So if high cortisol is adaptive to a zinc deficient/hypo metabolic state, taking sugar to lower it; without correcting the initial cause of the high cortisol, is going to cause issues long term. Sugar does lower cortisol, so does zinc. I'm just saying it's better to eat zinc and lower it, than to take a chemical which lowers it, but makes the initial cause (zinc deficiency) worse!
Cortisol functions to increase blood sugar through gluconeogenesis (= generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate carbon substrates). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

So ingesting carbs looks like a promising way to prevent cortisol raising in the first place. Don't you think so? And since fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, fruits and table sugar are preferable over starch. (see Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context)

I already said I agree sugar lowers cortisol. But it doesn't address the reason you had high cortisol in the first place. No I don't think fruit/sugar are better than starch because you need insulin to tolerate/handle carbohydrate. So something that lowers insulin is going to make it harder to tolerate the carbs. That's why most people I know tolerate starch better than sugar, more insulin to process it. I have applied this to real people in the real world.
I resume:

1. The diet should provide adequate amounts of nutrients including zinc.
2. Your claim that sugar depletes zinc via raised insulin in unsubstantiated.

I would like to add that Ray Peat recommends to have carbs, protein and fat together.

RP: The amino acids in the protein themselves are strong stimulants of the insulin secretion and when you don't take in sugar, the insulin to dispose of the protein will lower your blood sugar and to prevent the blood sugar going down you tend to produce either adrenalin or cortisol or both. And if your liver didn't have the glycogen stored to release glucose under the influence of adrenalin, then you depend on cortisol to keep your blood sugar steady and cortisol activates the conversion of protein to sugar and fat and so you've destroyed a big part of the protein that you've just eaten.

KMUD Interview: Sugar Myth 2 (2011)

Regarding starch vs. fructose, thyroid function

Question: Someone with hypothyroidism and low cholesterol, what can their link be there?

RP: Probably eating too much starch. That’s the commonest cause of that pattern. Fructose in particular acts very much like T3. Both glucose and fructose increase the conversion of the inactive thyroxine to the active T3. They do several things to increase the thyroid activity, lowering the stress hormone as well as increasing the active thyroid hormone and the energy provided by both the glucose and the T3 in the liver will give it the energy to produce the cholesterol that is needed if you are eating enough sugar and not producing toxins in the intestines, by eating hard to digest fibrous foods.

Int: So they can replace their starchy carbohydrates with fruit and honey in combination with protein, so it’s not just sugar on it’s own and that would help with their liver, increase thyroid hormone and increase their cholesterol.

RP: Yeah and all of the sugary fruits come with a very high concentration of potassium and other minerals that help to metabolise the sugar in a safe way so you don’t turn it into fat.

KMUD Interview: Sugar Myths 1 (2011)

The Peat diet doesn't provide enough zinc in relation to the amount of sugar and other foods that deplete zinc. I wonder how all my bodybuilding friends who eat protein and starch with every meal are doing so well. They are the healthiest people I know. If you don't understand how sugar depletes zinc via insulin production, not much else to say really. That Peat quote on sugar, protein and fat; when he says carbs or sugar, that doesn't necessarily mean simple sugar. I feel potatoes fit well into that quote as it's still carbs/sugar.
 
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D

Derek

Guest
DaveFoster said:
post 113830 Pretty sure everything in the body uses magnesium in one form or another, seeing how it's implicated in cellular respiration. The real question is, what's the use of unused magnesium without any sugar to use it upon?

I wasn't recommending a low carb diet. I just said I thought starch was preferable to simple sugar. Starch is still sugar/carbs.
 
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Nicholas

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Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Messages
666
perhaps the resolution some need is to really assess their use of sugar (all kinds) in their diet. if you've assessed with brutal honesty (i.e. anti-authoritarian) then that is all that's required of us. reading studies and advice from others does help to a degree, but i've found that at the end of the day our best source of information is what we carry around every day. your body usually ends up showing you when you aren't perceiving a needed change (whether that may be higher or lower sugar and what types, etc.) - sometimes not in the ways we would like. i believe the core message that Derek is offering is that the body's diet is dictated by its level of function. right? this would mean that the body's diet changes over time (hopefully towards better function).

the cells in our body are already coded to want to function. a lot of times, our search for resolving health issues puts the human body into a negative light....like we can learn something that the cell doesn't already understand and know.
 
D

Derek

Guest
Wilfrid said:
post 113854
Giraffe said:
post 113764
Derek said:
post 113644 The pancreas has to produce insulin in order to handle sugar. The nutrients that are needed by the pancreas to produce insulin are zinc and manganese; so eating sugar will deplete you of these two minerals, as well as stress your pancreas. As I said, I saw the ramifications of this most in high carb vegans and fruitarians, who had little to no zinc intake. How much red meat do you have to eat to offset the effects of sugar I'm not sure, and if your stressing your pancreas with large amounts of refined sugar, it's going to impair your digestion of meat/zinc because the pancreas is vital to protein digestion.
The diet of vegans is high in phytate (found in nuts, grains and legumes), which is a potent inhibitor of zinc absorption.

I agree that zinc is needed for insulin processing, but why do you think that zinc is lost? Do you have a reference?

If I remember my lecture correctly, studies made by Morris and Harland (1985) compared whole bran muffins to dephytinized ones and found no differences in mineral balances. It seems that subjects consuming the phytate-containing whole bran muffins showed reduced iron, zinc, manganese, calcium and copper absorption during the first 5 days but for the next left 10 days had greater absorption of these same minerals than the dephytinized bran muffin group. Other studies made by Kelsay et al ( 1987 ) and Prather et al ( 1987 ) suggest that the body may show a positive adaptation with time to factors which bind minerals.
For more information about it, Steven L. Ink has wrote an entire chapter ( chapter 10, from page 253 to 264 in the book " Nutrient interactions " by Bodwell and Erdman ) on the subject: " Fiber-Mineral and Fiber-Vitamin interactions "

As for the zinc/insulin thing, in the book " Zinc biochemistry ", the author mentionned a study made by Engelbart and Kief (1970) where acute stimulation of insulin secretion ( in rats ) reduces the zinc content of the pancreatic beta cells : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4190078
If you want to know more about this, you can go to bookzz to get the book and read chapter 5.3 ( from page 106 to page 109). A lot of interesting informations.

Personally I wouldn't rely on whole bran muffins for zinc, but interesting studies nonetheless.

Thank you for that zinc post Wil. I actually have that book in my library!
 
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OP
Parsifal

Parsifal

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Aug 6, 2015
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1,081
Giraffe said:
Derek said:
post 113641
Parsifal said:
post 113585 Lots of different opinions, that's interesting.

About using bicarbonate to buffer CO2, I didn't really understood. I've also read that baking soda can cause stones and seems that some people here are getting kidney stones so I don't know...
Sugar raises CO[sub]2[/sub], CO2 is acidic in the blood, body dips into alkaline mineral stores to buffer C02 in the blood to achieve a neutral PH. I wasn't talking about taking bicarbonate.
@ Derek: What you are you talking about? Care to clarify?

@ Parsifal: The CO[sub]2[/sub] lowers blood pH (more acidic), which allows the hemoglobin to release its oxygen. When blood passes through the lungs the CO[sub]2[/sub] vaporizes and leaves the lungs forming bicarbonate through the following equation: CO[sub]2[/sub] + H[sub]2[/sub]O <==> H[sub]2[/sub]CO[sub]3[/sub] <==> H[sup]+[/sup] + HC3[sup]-[/sup]
Thus: decrease CO[sub]2[/sub] --> increase blood ph (more alkaline) --> hemoglobin takes up oxygen (see Wikipedia: Bohr effect). Lactic acid which also lowers blood pH does not vaporize.

Bicarbonate helps in many other ways, for example it:

- increases excretion of phosphate in the urine (see Phosphate, activation, and aging)
- protects against many of the toxic effects of ammonia. (see Meat physiology, stress, and degenerative physiology).

PTH besides activating glycolysis (= lactic acid is produced instead of CO[sub]2[/sub]) causes bicarbonate to be lost in the urine.
Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy
Thanks Giraffe! What about people getting a stones?
 
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D

Derek

Guest
Makrosky said:
post 113862 Derek, RP has said potassium (which is greatly contained in fruits) is kind of a surrogate for insulin. It helps the body process the sugar from the fruits sparing insulin. So your equation fruit->insulin->zinc+manganese deficiency might be true only in a pure frutarian diet. It's written in the book "Nutrition for Women" if someone wants to check it.

I agree on the potassium, that's why I am very fond of potatoes; and that's the reason I think starch like potatoes with meat, is a far better meal than fruit and sugar. Are you sure it's not the fructose sparing insulin? Potassium helps you handle carbs, but I've never heard of it sparing insulin?
 
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D

Derek

Guest
Wilfrid said:
post 113877
Makrosky said:
post 113862 Derek, RP has said potassium (which is greatly contained in fruits) is kind of a surrogate for insulin. It helps the body process the sugar from the fruits sparing insulin. So your equation fruit->insulin->zinc+manganese deficiency might be true only in a pure frutarian diet. It's written in the book "Nutrition for Women" if someone wants to check it.

Ray often makes reference to William Budd and P.A Piorry about diabetes treatment. I can't speak much about Budd since I did not manage to put my hand on his book.
However, I got the book written by the french Pierre Alphonse Piorry, " la médecine du bon sens ", where he described his successful approach to treat diabetic patients with therapeutic amount of white sugar ( sometimes up to 500-600 grams of it ), starch and drastic reduction of water intake ( Matt Stone? ) as well as low protein amount. ( " Glucosurrhée; traitement " pages 291-299 in " La médecine du bon sens " ,1867 ).
Apparently mostly refined sugar and starches ( he didn't mention which but wrote defavorably about gluten ) was the tools used in his medical practice.
No need of potassium or added minerals substances to metabolize ( pure white :eek: ) sugar efficiently, at least according to his writtings and his successful treated patients. No zinc supplementation, no destruction of the exocrine and endocrine pancreas functions. I don't know much about his british fellow Budd ( he made references to a same medical approach of diabetes used by british doctors in London ( page 298 ) without mentioning names ), though.
As for " Nutrition for women ", there are still obscur quotes made by Ray in this book.....
E.g, sardines ( page 48 ) as being a very good sources of protein for people with enteritis, colitis, crohn's disease that should not interfere with thyroid function (?!). The last time I checked sardines were very very good sources of PUFA......

These are people with diabetes, in this state the need for energy supersedes the need for any particular mineral which is why large amounts of sugar are used. This is a temporary diet, which is why Ray talks about sugar being used as a temporary therapeutic tool. They need pure energy. Don't know how well this applies to your average person, however. I believe the starch used was white rice!
 
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D

Derek

Guest
Wilfrid said:
post 113884
Derek said:
post 113883
BingDing said:
post 113803
Derek said:
post 113356 White sugar causes you to waste most vitamins and minerals; mainly B-Vitamins, Potassium, Magnesium, Zinc and manganese. Sugar raises CO2 in the blood, you need bicarbonates to buffer it; so your body dips into your alkaline mineral stores. You eat sugar it increases the pancreas's production of insulin, which is dependent on zinc and manganese; so you can see how sugar depletes you of minerals. BTW, it has nothing to do with an increased metabolic rate. Sugar just puts a strain on your body causing you to waste minerals/vitamins in order to process it. You mentioned sugared milk, lets look at the pancreas. Calcium depletes you of zinc. Sugar depletes you of manganese and zinc. Pancreas needs zinc/manganese to produce insulin. You can see how sugared milk is death to the pancreas.

Also, if sugar wastes magnesium, one could should wonder if it's really pro-thyroid as everyone says. Ray says thyroid/good metabolic rate allow the body to retain magnesium, hypothyroidism causes people to waste magnesium; so what does that make you think of white sugar?

I have a hard time understanding your perspective, Derek. Do you have any references for another "sugar is bad" post?

Sucrose is sucrose, whether it is in a five pound bag or a ripe fruit. Glucose + O2 -> CO2 + ATP is what makes multi-cellular life possible, that is considered a good thing. Buffering blood ph is also perfectly normal, and on an RP type program so is getting adequate vitamins, minerals, and amino acids to produce all the co-factors, hormones, neurotransmitters, immune factors, etc for healthy homeostasis.

There are numerous RP quotes about sugar being beneficial, you can find them if you try. I only post this because I worry about new people buying into such a simplistic and erroneous perspective.

Well if you have a hard time understanding/believing what I'm saying, then no references are going to change your mind. I explained about as simply as I could the way sugar interacts with the pancreas. There are also RP quotes about sugar being a temporary therapeutic tool, about sugar being to low in nutrients, etc... I don't really need to find the quotes as I've spoken with him about this issue many times. When I talk about lowering sugar/calcium intake and concentrating on zinc, manganese, magnesium; you find that erroneous?

Replace magnesium for selenium and you have the 3 most important minerals ( besides calcium ) according to Dr Carey Reams and his followers ( especially A. Beddoe).
Do you have, by chance, any connections with the RBTI therapeutic approach?

Are you talking about the health of the pancreas? Because zinc, manganese and selenium are the main 3 the pancreas needs to function properly. I don't really follow any specific dietary approaches/protocols. Try to combine everything I've learned and use all the information with the proper context, when trying to help people. Sticking rigidly to any dietary paradigm is counterproductive IMO.
 
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Wilfrid

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Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
723
When I was on the road to my recovery, I needed to combine refined starches with proteins to feel my best.
I know for a fact that polysaccharides as in starches ( or glucose polymers as in IV ) are very potent minerals absorption enhancers ( my nails are the best indicators of my minerals status as well as my teeth sensitivity, both dramaticaly improved on such dietetic combinations.).
I read studies of their abilities to increase calcium, zinc, magnesium intestinal absorption and are very good dietetic tools to resplenish minerals stores for people with IBD.
And as for the n=1 experience, I said from the beginning of my various posts on the forum that a meal combining refined starches, saturated or EVOO source of fats and proteins basically saves my life!
No polemics with other members but I found Derek's diet advices matching perfectly my experience.
 

Wilfrid

Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
723
Derek said:
post 113898
Wilfrid said:
post 113884
Derek said:
post 113883
BingDing said:
post 113803
Derek said:
post 113356 White sugar causes you to waste most vitamins and minerals; mainly B-Vitamins, Potassium, Magnesium, Zinc and manganese. Sugar raises CO2 in the blood, you need bicarbonates to buffer it; so your body dips into your alkaline mineral stores. You eat sugar it increases the pancreas's production of insulin, which is dependent on zinc and manganese; so you can see how sugar depletes you of minerals. BTW, it has nothing to do with an increased metabolic rate. Sugar just puts a strain on your body causing you to waste minerals/vitamins in order to process it. You mentioned sugared milk, lets look at the pancreas. Calcium depletes you of zinc. Sugar depletes you of manganese and zinc. Pancreas needs zinc/manganese to produce insulin. You can see how sugared milk is death to the pancreas.

Also, if sugar wastes magnesium, one could should wonder if it's really pro-thyroid as everyone says. Ray says thyroid/good metabolic rate allow the body to retain magnesium, hypothyroidism causes people to waste magnesium; so what does that make you think of white sugar?

I have a hard time understanding your perspective, Derek. Do you have any references for another "sugar is bad" post?

Sucrose is sucrose, whether it is in a five pound bag or a ripe fruit. Glucose + O2 -> CO2 + ATP is what makes multi-cellular life possible, that is considered a good thing. Buffering blood ph is also perfectly normal, and on an RP type program so is getting adequate vitamins, minerals, and amino acids to produce all the co-factors, hormones, neurotransmitters, immune factors, etc for healthy homeostasis.

There are numerous RP quotes about sugar being beneficial, you can find them if you try. I only post this because I worry about new people buying into such a simplistic and erroneous perspective.

Well if you have a hard time understanding/believing what I'm saying, then no references are going to change your mind. I explained about as simply as I could the way sugar interacts with the pancreas. There are also RP quotes about sugar being a temporary therapeutic tool, about sugar being to low in nutrients, etc... I don't really need to find the quotes as I've spoken with him about this issue many times. When I talk about lowering sugar/calcium intake and concentrating on zinc, manganese, magnesium; you find that erroneous?

Replace magnesium for selenium and you have the 3 most important minerals ( besides calcium ) according to Dr Carey Reams and his followers ( especially A. Beddoe).
Do you have, by chance, any connections with the RBTI therapeutic approach?

Are you talking about the health of the pancreas? Because zinc, manganese and selenium are the main 3 the pancreas needs to function properly. I don't really follow any specific dietary approaches/protocols. Try to combine everything I've learned and use all the information with the proper context, when trying to help people. Sticking rigidly to any dietary paradigm is counterproductive IMO.
Yes, as for the pancreas. I don't follow any specific dietary approaches either.
Nothing ( apart from my quatre quart cake :D ) can make me more sastified than a green salad topped with parmesan, olive oil, Camargue's fleur de sel, balsamic vinegar followed by a shellfish risotto ( even if get allergic reactions from the shellfish! ) and an apple pie as a dessert. :roll:
Or a white bread topped with Bordier's brittany butter and gently melted camembert and a chocolate mousse....or homemade pancakes or oatmeal made with chocolate chunks, hot bananas topped with plenty of maple syrup...or a sweet homemade applesauce with nutmeg and cinnamon topped with muscovado sugar...or.... :D
 
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CoolTweetPete

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milk_lover said:
post 113857 Sugar, from my own experience, can deplete some vitamins and minerals. It would make sense really if you look at sugar as a pro-metabolism substance. Ray Peat advises to take magnesium with thyroid (I have seen this in the forum) and thyroid, like sugar, is a pro-metabolism substance. And if you look at metabolism as an energy, then magnesium is involved in ATP. Even if sugar does not deplete magnesium, it won't hurt to eat magnesium rich food and/or take non-allergic magnesium supplement like transdermal magnesium oil.

This seeming contradiction has stuck out for me while adopting a Peat-style approach to nutrition. There are no magnesium-rich foods in a purely Peat-style diet. I think the closest thing would be consuming whole potatoes, but there is still no balance if you're drinking a gallon of milk.

I once asked Danny Roddy if he supplements magnesium since he does not eat vegetables. He said no because the supps do not agree with his stomach. Yet Peat seems to advocate large amounts of calcium (which is not properly absorbed without adequate magnesium).
 
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