Does Optimal Carb Intake Vary Between People?

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I think optimal carb intake will vary depending on activity level, but optimal energy and health will come from a diet with plenty of carbohydrates, and within the carbs consumed, more skewed towards fruit sugars.

Just because someone “thrives” on a low carb high fat doesn’t necessarily entail that’s the best diet for them, just one that they believe to be best.

By all means if they found something that works, then there’s no reason to tell them otherwise, but if they start running into problems, one can kindly show them the light.

I remember @Amazoniac posted a study in which rats which were made type 1 diabetic( so that they had no insulin) and they were given options of food to eat. They chose a carb free diet instinctualy. I wonder if it was because the carb sources were mainly starch. I also wonder if they would have chosen diferently if pure fructose was an option. I think that this study means that in the very short term, a low carb diet may work, although it isn't a solution.

 

[bboone]

Does optimal food intake vary between people? Does an infant and a powerlifter eat the same amount? ...

you didn’t get the question? carb intake relative to kcal, as well as total kcal. one of the examples weighs a lean 220, works out 6 days a week and eats 2700 kcal a day, with no focus on carb intake, yet doesn’t have any problems. how are people like that explained? according to a few guys on here, he should need 9000 kcal w at least a kg of carb a day lol

 

[Bad Linhat]

I was coached by Nathan Hatch for a while and he recommends just don't count calories and eat as much as you need to (basically a Matt Stone philosophy) but my weight gain is just getting ridiculous doing that, and I don't think that's working for me. But a calorie deficit doesn't work either, so what to do??

Have you tried to healing your gut as Nathan Hatch wrote in F*ck Portion Control ? (With sodium acetate and similar)

 

[Hans]

Sensitivity to PUFA is likely increased if you're unhealthy like myself. I think a strong healthy body can mitigate the damaging effects of PUFA more readily. An unhealthy body is going to be more sensitive to any negative stressor of any kind, not just food, but also EMF (which btw I also have EMF sensitivity now whereas I didn't really have that before) and just the chronic every day stressors in life.

After all, we see this time and time again - people who are healthy can eat whatever they want and seemingly get away from it. In this case, PUFA's are a ticking time bomb (which will affect them eventually) rather than an immediate inflammatory response that you notice. Which basically agrees with RP's philosophy - he says that PUFA's slowly accumulate in the body as you age and so you won't notice until later.

Yeah I almost definitely have digestive issues. I tried high dose activated charcoal with little effect which leads me to believe that its parasites that I have, just through deductive reasoning so I plan to do a de-worming protocol soon.

If fat is the macro that is really keeping your temps up, then dropping carbs a little shouldn't be a problem. A few safe fats to use without PUFA would be MCT oil, hydrogenated coconut oil and stearyl alcohol. Other low PUFA fats would be cocoa butter and regular coconut oil, but you already know this.
For me, longer chain fats, like stearic acid, has the most pronound effect on my temperature. So maybe getting stearyl alcohol might be a good option to keep temps up, which will also help with liver function, keep cortisol low, etc. 1 tsp with every meal could work well. Maybe someone that has used stearyl alcohol before can chime in?

As for carbs, maybe you can drop it down to 150-200g daily, so that your brain has enough fuel and liver glycogen doesn't run too low. That amount of carbs should be enough to prevent a stress reaction and your insulin sensitivity should improve. Then you can work on lowering excess lipolysis, reset adrenergic receptor sensitivity (with proper thyroid function), and focus on improving insulin sensitivity. As your sensitivity improves and your temp gets more stable, you can start to decrease fat and increase carbs slowly. Focus on "filling" fats, such as stearic acid rich fats (cocoa butter, butter, stearyl alcohol), and maybe MCT oil (it's been shown to promote satiety) as fat sources. Coconut oil might not be the best option as it doesn't actually promote satiety the same way MCT oil does, and might not aid in your recovery as well as other fat sources. I noticed once again that when I cut out dairy fat, I start to lose weight, specifically in my face and midsection.

Change and improvement takes time, and should really not be rushed. Although dropping carbs a bit might be "anti-peat", but it can be utilized short term to recover insulin sensitivity.
The other side of the spectrum is to lower fat, block excess lipolysis and eat carbs like nuts to improve insulin sensitivity, but it would seem this method is not working or has not worked for you.
Fruits rich in flavonoids will also help to lower oxidative stress and improve insulin sensitivity.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

If fat is the macro that is really keeping your temps up, then dropping carbs a little shouldn't be a problem. A few safe fats to use without PUFA would be MCT oil, hydrogenated coconut oil and stearyl alcohol. Other low PUFA fats would be cocoa butter and regular coconut oil, but you already know this.
For me, longer chain fats, like stearic acid, has the most pronound effect on my temperature. So maybe getting stearyl alcohol might be a good option to keep temps up, which will also help with liver function, keep cortisol low, etc. 1 tsp with every meal could work well. Maybe someone that has used stearyl alcohol before can chime in?

As for carbs, maybe you can drop it down to 150-200g daily, so that your brain has enough fuel and liver glycogen doesn't run too low. That amount of carbs should be enough to prevent a stress reaction and your insulin sensitivity should improve. Then you can work on lowering excess lipolysis, reset adrenergic receptor sensitivity (with proper thyroid function), and focus on improving insulin sensitivity. As your sensitivity improves and your temp gets more stable, you can start to decrease fat and increase carbs slowly. Focus on "filling" fats, such as stearic acid rich fats (cocoa butter, butter, stearyl alcohol), and maybe MCT oil (it's been shown to promote satiety) as fat sources. Coconut oil might not be the best option as it doesn't actually promote satiety the same way MCT oil does, and might not aid in your recovery as well as other fat sources. I noticed once again that when I cut out dairy fat, I start to lose weight, specifically in my face and midsection.

Change and improvement takes time, and should really not be rushed. Although dropping carbs a bit might be "anti-peat", but it can be utilized short term to recover insulin sensitivity.

Great suggestions! Wasn't aware of stearyl alcohol. Is it better than stearic acid flakes?

The other side of the spectrum is to lower fat, block excess lipolysis and eat carbs like nuts to improve insulin sensitivity, but it would seem this method is not working or has not worked for you.
Fruits rich in flavonoids will also help to lower oxidative stress and improve insulin sensitivity.

I remember @haidut saying that niacinamide( vitamin B3) was crucial for him to regain the ability to oxidize carbs well.​

 

[Hans]

Great suggestions! Wasn't aware of stearyl alcohol. Is it better than stearic acid flakes?

Thanks. I guess if both are high quality food grade they should have a similar effect, given that they are both just stearic acid.

I remember @haidut saying that niacinamide( vitamin B3) was crucial for him to regain the ability to oxidize carbs well.

Indeed. I think he used high dose, like 6-8g of niacinamide and aspirin during that one experiment of his, not sure if it was during the time he was fixing his insulin sensitivity as well.
I'm pretty sure @Cirion used niacinamide before, but not sure at what doses.

 

[Cirion]

Great suggestions but not sold on the low carb idea. Carbs don't cause insulin resistance anyway nor does lowering them improve sensitivity. Carbs in the face of PUFA cause insulin resistance. Fats don't really give me energy, carbs do, so I won't have energy on that low amount. Plus I'm always wary of going from one extreme to the other (600+ carb all the way down to 150 is a recipe for disaster, that's more than just a "little" drop lol).

What my gut is saying I really need to do is focus on optimizing the fats since I feel my carb intakes are pretty healthy with mostly fruit, some skim milk, some maple syrup, some juices. I'll try to bring PUFA's down next to zero first and see how that goes, by incorporating more stearic acid / MCT etc. Reducing PUFA should basically be as effective as lowering total fat if what I've learned about the randle cycle is true. My gut is saying I need to be under 1-2G pufa though due to the amount of issues I'm having currently. Which means I'll have to be super strict about what fats I eat especially if I'm still eating a generous supply of it. I think I will consider some of the things like B3 as well.

Looks like my diet will be boring for a while lol.

Skim milk + hydrogenated coconut oil + MCT oil + stearic acid + fruit basically...

BTW when you said carb like nuts I assume that was a typo?? Lol just checking

Finally:

I noticed once again that when I cut out dairy fat, I start to lose weight, specifically in my face and midsection.

Would you consider goat cheese as "dairy"? I eat a TON of goat cheese. Perhaps this has been my downfall???

And yeah, changes do take time, but the fact is I've constantly been changing for the worse not the better, so obviously that's no good. I just wanna start getting the ball rolling in the right direction, I don't mind that it will take a while.

 

[YourUniverse]

Completely forgot about niacinamide - going to buy a ton of bulk powder

 

[Hans]

Great suggestions but not sold on the low carb idea. Carbs don't cause insulin resistance anyway nor does lowering them improve sensitivity. Carbs in the face of PUFA cause insulin resistance. Fats don't really give me energy, carbs do, so I won't have energy on that low amount. Plus I'm always wary of going from one extreme to the other (600+ carb all the way down to 150 is a recipe for disaster, that's more than just a "little" drop lol).

Yeah, dropping carbs isn't the best idea, but still hyperglycemia causes oxidative stress, inflammation, insulin resistance and excess lipogenesis.
Doing sprints will help to lower blood sugar.
Maybe the thyroid you got will help to improving insulin sensitivity and speed up glucose oxidation, so then no need to lower carbs.

All fats compete with glucose for oxidation, but insulin should shuttle fats into adipose tissue and inhibit lipolysis, so that the fats don't interfere with glucose oxidation. As insulin drops because most of the glucose is removed from the blood, lipolysis increases again. It should be a one or the other system under normal conditions.
The cool think about saturated fat is that it inhibits lipid oxidation in the presence of glucose by increasing malonyl-coa. PUFAs don't...as much.
Plus, stearic acid (long chain fat), increases insulin secretion, thus aiding in keeping blood sugar in control, whereas PUFAs don't...as much.
So you're on the right track to lower PUFAs, but improving insulin sensitivity would be first priority. As that is difficult to do now, blocking excess lipolysis would be best, kind of to substitute for insulins part. Taking thyroid will also help.

Looks like my diet will be boring for a while lol.

Skim milk + hydrogenated coconut oil + MCT oil + stearic acid + fruit basically...

Looks almost like my diet atm haha. You can make it fun by making smoothies. I take about 500ml milk, add 200-300g fruit of choice and blend it all up. I sometimes add sugar if taste is a bit bland, because I use skim milk now.

BTW when you said carb like nuts I assume that was a typo?? Lol just checking

Like nuts as in crazy. Eat carbs like crazy. You gave me a good chuckle there lol.

Would you consider goat cheese as "dairy"? I eat a TON of goat cheese. Perhaps this has been my downfall???

I was specifically talking about dairy from cows, but generally goats milk/fat is safer and not as contaminated with hormones, etc, etc. I haven't tried goats cheese before, but I have noticed in other people (including myself) that if they reduce cows cheese they start to lose weight.

 

[Waynish]

you didn’t get the question? carb intake relative to kcal, as well as total kcal. one of the examples weighs a lean 220, works out 6 days a week and eats 2700 kcal a day, with no focus on carb intake, yet doesn’t have any problems. how are people like that explained? according to a few guys on here, he should need 9000 kcal w at least a kg of carb a day lol

I don't get the question again then... Is the question, "can you explain each individual example within the vast biodiversity"? No... I don't think anyone can. There are so many ways the body can function, different bacteria that can work with & against it, etc. The body can become very efficient when it is running correctly. I've met people larger than 220 who eat less than that... They don't need to sleep much either and I've never caught them more tired or less awake than anyone in their midst... But they trained in monasteries for years.

What's your goal? I would focus on that.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Yeah, dropping carbs isn't the best idea, but still hyperglycemia causes oxidative stress, inflammation, insulin resistance and excess lipogenesis.
Doing sprints will help to lower blood sugar.
Maybe the thyroid you got will help to improving insulin sensitivity and speed up glucose oxidation, so then no need to lower carbs.

Do you think it's hyperglycemia itself that causes the inflammation or is it just that normally hyperglycemia is present when there is inflammation and other disturbances? Ray's stance is that it's the free fatty acids that are to blame for these effects. Maybe some concentric exercises( lifting the weight and letting it fall onto the ground) can help as well. I don't feel very good after doing lots of eccentric exercises, but concentric ones are great for me.

All fats compete with glucose for oxidation, but insulin should shuttle fats into adipose tissue and inhibit lipolysis, so that the fats don't interfere with glucose oxidation. As insulin drops because most of the glucose is removed from the blood, lipolysis increases again. It should be a one or the other system under normal conditions.

So would starch be valuable in this situation? Fructose is known to not stimulate very much insulin at all.

The cool think about saturated fat is that it inhibits lipid oxidation in the presence of glucose by increasing malonyl-coa. PUFAs don't...as much.
Plus, stearic acid (long chain fat), increases insulin secretion, thus aiding in keeping blood sugar in control, whereas PUFAs don't...as much.
So you're on the right track to lower PUFAs, but improving insulin sensitivity would be first priority. As that is difficult to do now, blocking excess lipolysis would be best, kind of to substitute for insulins part. Taking thyroid will also help.

I think @Cirion said he had stopped drinking coffee, but recently started drinking again( not sure). Maybe high dosing caffeine can help too? Since the liver is so central to the insulin resistance issues.

 

[Hans]

Do you think it's hyperglycemia itself that causes the inflammation or is it just that normally hyperglycemia is present when there is inflammation and other disturbances? Ray's stance is that it's the free fatty acids that are to blame for these effects. Maybe some concentric exercises( lifting the weight and letting it fall onto the ground) can help as well. I don't feel very good after doing lots of eccentric exercises, but concentric ones are great for me.

"We show here that acute hyperglycemia in normal subjects causes an oxidative stress as evidenced by the raised circulating nitrotyrosine levels during the hyperglycemic clamp."
Acute hyperglycemia induces an oxidative stress in healthy subjects
Eating carbs will increase blood sugar, that will increase reactive oxygen species and that is totally normal. But having chronic hyperglycemia will increase ROS too much which will lead to inflammation, etc. But excess PUFA, lipolysis, cortisol, adrenaline, etc. all promote hyperglycemia, so fixing that would be best.

So would starch be valuable in this situation? Fructose is known to not stimulate very much insulin at all.

All fruits or food with fructose will increase insulin, which should inhibit lipolysis and fat oxidation. Fructose will then increase glucose oxidation and help to lower hyperglycemia. Starches will just spike already elevated insulin and will not do much, but further promote insulin resistance (Although the potato diet is very effective at restoring insulin sensitivity, because fat intake is close to zero). Both milk and fruits are lower GI than starches and will be a better strategy to control insulin and blood sugar.

I think @Cirion said he had stopped drinking coffee, but recently started drinking again( not sure). Maybe high dosing caffeine can help too? Since the liver is so central to the insulin resistance issues.

Since I've been consuming mostly milk and fruit, highish dose caffeine (300-600mg in the morning), methylene blue as well as de-wormed myself with black walnut, wormwood, neem, oregano oil, aloe bitters, etc, my upper stomach has become much flatter. Other good anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic agents are monolaurin, cinnamon oil, cascara sagrada, aspirin, high dose niacinamide, etc. Detoxing worms, bacteria, etc., will also significantly aid with liver health as they burden the liver.

 

[Dobbler]

"We show here that acute hyperglycemia in normal subjects causes an oxidative stress as evidenced by the raised circulating nitrotyrosine levels during the hyperglycemic clamp."
Acute hyperglycemia induces an oxidative stress in healthy subjects
Eating carbs will increase blood sugar, that will increase reactive oxygen species and that is totally normal. But having chronic hyperglycemia will increase ROS too much which will lead to inflammation, etc. But excess PUFA, lipolysis, cortisol, adrenaline, etc. all promote hyperglycemia, so fixing that would be best.

All fruits or food with fructose will increase insulin, which should inhibit lipolysis and fat oxidation. Fructose will then increase glucose oxidation and help to lower hyperglycemia. Starches will just spike already elevated insulin and will not do much, but further promote insulin resistance (Although the potato diet is very effective at restoring insulin sensitivity, because fat intake is close to zero). Both milk and fruits are lower GI than starches and will be a better strategy to control insulin and blood sugar.

Since I've been consuming mostly milk and fruit, highish dose caffeine (300-600mg in the morning), methylene blue as well as de-wormed myself with black walnut, wormwood, neem, oregano oil, aloe bitters, etc, my upper stomach has become much flatter. Other good anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic agents are monolaurin, cinnamon oil, cascara sagrada, aspirin, high dose niacinamide, etc. Detoxing worms, bacteria, etc., will also significantly aid with liver health as they burden the liver.

How much oregano oil you think is effective for killing bacteria? What you think of ginger as antibacterial therapy? It has some track record for killing everything from bacteria to yeast, although im not sure how strong it is exactly?
Also how long you think these natural antibiotic cycles should be?

 

[Hans]

How much oregano oil you think is effective for killing bacteria? What you think of ginger as antibacterial therapy? It has some track record for killing everything from bacteria to yeast, although im not sure how strong it is exactly?
Also how long you think these natural antibiotic cycles should be?

I'm not sure about the dosages, but maybe 5 drop sublingually 3-4 times a day should be effective. I'm also not sure how ginger compares to oregano oil with potency, but it should be pretty potent. Cinnamon oil is also another very potent option.
You can probably keep using it until your symptoms disappear.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

"We show here that acute hyperglycemia in normal subjects causes an oxidative stress as evidenced by the raised circulating nitrotyrosine levels during the hyperglycemic clamp."
Acute hyperglycemia induces an oxidative stress in healthy subjects
Eating carbs will increase blood sugar, that will increase reactive oxygen species and that is totally normal. But having chronic hyperglycemia will increase ROS too much which will lead to inflammation, etc. But excess PUFA, lipolysis, cortisol, adrenaline, etc. all promote hyperglycemia, so fixing that would be best.

All fruits or food with fructose will increase insulin, which should inhibit lipolysis and fat oxidation. Fructose will then increase glucose oxidation and help to lower hyperglycemia. Starches will just spike already elevated insulin and will not do much, but further promote insulin resistance (Although the potato diet is very effective at restoring insulin sensitivity, because fat intake is close to zero). Both milk and fruits are lower GI than starches and will be a better strategy to control insulin and blood sugar.

Since I've been consuming mostly milk and fruit, highish dose caffeine (300-600mg in the morning), methylene blue as well as de-wormed myself with black walnut, wormwood, neem, oregano oil, aloe bitters, etc, my upper stomach has become much flatter. Other good anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic agents are monolaurin, cinnamon oil, cascara sagrada, aspirin, high dose niacinamide, etc. Detoxing worms, bacteria, etc., will also significantly aid with liver health as they burden the liver.

I see. Thanks.

Yeah, i can see how these substances can work. After taking cascara for example, my belly gets noticeably less bloated. Very interesting.

 

[Cirion]

I never seem to do well on caffeine or stimulants long term. I'm not a good metabolizer of caffeine, and I mean that in the strictest sense. There actually are genes determine how well you can metabolize it, and if you don't have them, anything more than 100-200 mg just isn't possible and from personal experience this holds true, no matter how much sugar I have with the coffee. I'm back up to one cup a day, but no more. Even when I was at my healthiest, 200 mg was my absolute upper limit. I haven't actually tested the specific gene in question, but from what I've read probably only around 25% of people have it (Since you must inherent the good caffeine metabolism from BOTH parents, not just one). @Hans how do you tolerate 300-600 mg? And in the morning, no less? Is it because you take caffeine with your tribulus terrestris, I guess in an attempt to lower the cortisol which caffeine generally raises especially in that massive of a dose? I'm aware of the theory that having calories with coffee is supposed to decrease the cortisol boost, but that never happened for me. I don't doubt the research about its benefits on the liver necessarily, but I just never was able to reconcile the adrenaline/cortisol/dependence/insomnia problems that caffeine gives me.

Would you be willing to expand upon your protocol(s) in more detail with actual dosage, timing etc especially the deworming protocol? It's a lot of supplements you suggested, and I need somewhere to start. Thanks.

 

[Hans]

@Hans how do you tolerate 300-600 mg? And in the morning, no less? Is it because you take caffeine with your tribulus terrestris, I guess in an attempt to lower the cortisol which caffeine generally raises especially in that massive of a dose? I'm aware of the theory that having calories with coffee is supposed to decrease the cortisol boost, but that never happened for me. I don't doubt the research about its benefits on the liver necessarily, but I just never was able to reconcile the adrenaline/cortisol/dependence/insomnia problems that caffeine gives me.

I have always tolerated coffee/caffeine pretty well. I have taken 900mg in the morning once, but felt like I didn't need such a high dose. At 900mg (I didn't do a buildup/tolerance protocol beforehand) I felt slightly overstimulated but it was really very very mild. So thats one reason I lowered the dose, plus I want to stay sensitive to it. On day I don't workout I don't use caffeine as well.
I finished my TT a few days ago, so I'm just using the caffeine with methylene blue and aspirin.
Did you ever use theanine or B3 with the caffeine to offset the negatives?

For the deworming, I used a combo product with most of the substances and then I got an additional wormwood and black walnut extract tincture. I have no idea what the doses are of the tinctures, but I'm guessing it would be the standard dose. Then I took it three time a day. The protocol only lasts a few weeks.
So apart from the black walnut, wormwood and combo product, I'd say methylene blue with red light/sunlight would also be great to kill pathogens in the gut and lymphatic system. I use 30mg methylene blue orally in the morning and then sunbathed for 30min. It's summer here now.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I have always tolerated coffee/caffeine pretty well. I have taken 900mg in the morning once, but felt like I didn't need such a high dose. At 900mg (I didn't do a buildup/tolerance protocol beforehand) I felt slightly overstimulated but it was really very very mild. So thats one reason I lowered the dose, plus I want to stay sensitive to it. On day I don't workout I don't use caffeine as well.
I finished my TT a few days ago, so I'm just using the caffeine with methylene blue and aspirin.
Did you ever use theanine or B3 with the caffeine to offset the negatives?

For the deworming, I used a combo product with most of the substances and then I got an additional wormwood and black walnut extract tincture. I have no idea what the doses are of the tinctures, but I'm guessing it would be the standard dose. Then I took it three time a day. The protocol only lasts a few weeks.
So apart from the black walnut, wormwood and combo product, I'd say methylene blue with red light/sunlight would also be great to kill pathogens in the gut and lymphatic system. I use 30mg methylene blue orally in the morning and then sunbathed for 30min. It's summer here now.

Did you feel like the deworming was rough on your gut or no?

 

[Cirion]

Daaaaaaaayuuuum son 900mg lmao if I had 900mg I would be higher than a kite, I'd be higher than the international space station!!! Yeah, you definitely have good caffeine genetics. LOL

I have not tried theanine yet, nor taurine for that matter, worth a shot I suppose. I have done B3 in the past, actually, honestly B3 made it worse. The immediate energy taking B3 made me more energetic but also a bigger crash later.

Can you tell me what product specifically you used for the combo product? How much aspirin per mg of caffeine? Do you take Vitamin K2 with the coffee?

I wish it were summer here. That's part of my problems. And to add insult to injury after snowing it has been cloudy for a WEEK straight.

 

[Hans]

Did you feel like the deworming was rough on your gut or no?

No not at all.

Daaaaaaaayuuuum son 900mg lmao if I had 900mg I would be higher than a kite, I'd be higher than the international space station!!! Yeah, you definitely have good caffeine genetics. LOL

I have not tried theanine yet, nor taurine for that matter, worth a shot I suppose. I have done B3 in the past, actually, honestly B3 made it worse. The immediate energy taking B3 made me more energetic but also a bigger crash later.

Can you tell me what product specifically you used for the combo product? How much aspirin per mg of caffeine? Do you take Vitamin K2 with the coffee?

I wish it were summer here. That's part of my problems. And to add insult to injury after snowing it has been cloudy for a WEEK straight.

Lol yeah. It feels that way with most supplements though.
Interesting about the B3. How long would you say did you feel good on it before the crash? Maybe when you crashed the anti-lipolytic effect of niacinamide wore off?

The combo product was just one I got locally, and they don't ship international. You might want to google around or maybe someone on the forum knows of a good product for that purpose. But it's not necessarily essential to get the combo product. Maybe using a few anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic and anti-worm substances together would be a good idea, such as monolaurin, flowers of sulfur, black walnut extract, wormwood, and methylene blue with red light and then some charcoal and cascara sagrada to bind and flush it all out.