Does increased hunger = increased metabolism?

equipoise

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When I was heavy on starches I would get nausea and a headache from hunger going for a long period between meals. Since keeping starches away I can get hungry, but not in a sickly way and go all day without eating if need be. A bunch of us were cleaning out my dad's hoard in the California desert summer heat and at dinnertime everyone would be crabby hungry while I felt great, and they are all younger than me by many years. Was I hungry too? Yes, but not upset about it.
Good liver thus good glycogen reserves thus more stable blood sugar = less hypoglycemia
Good on ya girl
 
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wealthofwisdom
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I think I'm the only one that disdains such kind of analyses. It's like driving and not feeling the rubber on the road. In place of thinking in terms of cause and effect, one is made to think in more abstract terms that leaves him clueless and unable to take proper corrective action, but makes him rely on an expert because he doesn't understand what the expert is talking about. It's like asking why milk doesn't taste sweet, and a quantum physicist explains to you electrons spinning in probabilistic terms.

The prescription "you must eat every 3 hours" is typical. But you don't get better really. You are just managing a bad condition. You're not really improving your state to where you can have steady blood sugar that you don't feel hungry even fasting for a day because your body fills in with its supply of sugar when you've not eaten for a while.

I'm just glad he didn't send in a nun to pray over you. That might work better- by a tad.



Having a low appetite means many things. When sick, appetite goes away for the body to concentrate on healing as digestion uses a lot of energy. But when you are always low on appetite, you may not be "fever" sick, but there is something chronically in imbalance. The first thing that comes to my mind is that you're in a protective inhibitory mode. That is alright if you're old and your body's organs are a small percentage of youthful capacity. But since you're not that old, it may just mean your body has adapted to a state of low metabolism. You're not producing much energy, and you're not using up much energy from food.

So, if you're starting to feel hunger more, that may be a good sign, coming from where you are. See this as a good sign and load up. Do you know what you did to become more hungry?

It would be good to check your metabolic state from time to time. Monitor your temperature waking up and at 5 pm, where temps are typically the lowest and the highest respectively. And take your temperature with the right tool for it. Most people have the regular digital thermometer for use orally and in the armpit. Most use the armpit. Armpit is 0.5 C lower than the real body temperature. And when using the digital thermometer, play deaf to the 1 minute beep so you can keep the thermometer in place for 12 minutes - to ensure the thermometer gives you the right temperature (the time varies from make to make, but the worst ones take 12 minutes).

Next is about Ray Peat's advice to use the heart rate - the higher heart rate, the higher the metabolism. But I've found it doesn't apply to me. I instead use an oximeter that measures also the perfusion index (PI). I found it to be more useful.

Lastly, to keep things simple as well as a bit more complicated (at the start), I use the Achilles Tendon Reflex Test to test whether I'm hypothyroid or not. To get an idea of how it's done, search for it on Youtube. It isn't rocket science, but it takes some push from the inertia of relying on blood tests for everything. And you need to ask someone to help you perform it. So, patience is needed on learning how to do it correctly. If one can learn to read and write, one can more easily learn to do this test. Once you learn it, you can use this test regularly to monitor your progress going from a hypothyroid to a euthyroid state, without the need to spend on doctors to wrongly interpret the state of your thyroid for you. Thinking you're not hypothyroid when you are has major health consequences that nothing else you do would amount to much of anything, and would get you stuck in a rut.

There are more tests you can do outside of the mainstream, but I'll just stop here.

The point here is that you have to know your true state to know where you can improve on.
Thanks for those tips, I appreciate it.

To be honest, I think the doctor used the term "adrenal fatigue", and in doing my research I discovered the term/concept "hpa axis dysfunction" which made way more sense to me (because it's more precisely correct), and to be even clearer it helped me IMMENSELY to understand what had been happening to me, on a physiological level, and it made SO many things so clear for me.

So for me it was a huge eye opener, and I'm extremely grateful for it. Actually I went deep in my quest to really understand what was happening (the doctor did not give me any of this) because I need to understand things to understand what I should do about them. So what I did was listen to podcasts that explained the physiology of how the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal all work together, and what each's role is in the stress response. I listened to A LOT of interviews with experts about the hpa axis, how the adrenals work, how the stress response works, what parts of the brain do what. It helped me to really UNDERSTAND what was happening in my body - and it just clarified so many things about myself and my emotional responses to things. My low energy. my avoidance of emotional situations, my fear of stress...all explained. I've always mediated, but now I have a physiological understanding of exactly why it's so effective to reducing stress, and why that is so important to an improved hpa axis. (The hpa response chain is triggered by the amygdala;, the amygdala can be controlled by the pre-frontal cortex, and through meditation and visualization your pre-frontal cortext has a stronger control over the amygdala, and therefore the stress response.

So while you're right, the doctor really didn't explain that much (just gave me things to do), just getting that diagnosis led me to discovering so much. Me being a "questioner" (that's an official personality type) I had to delve deep into the understanding exactly what was happening, and now I feel so much clearer about what my "issues" are. I also understand so much more now the role of cortisol, what a good daily cortisol curve looks like (with this knowing, I've been using supplements to support that curve). what I'm physically doing to myself when I indulge in a stressful thought and how CRITICAL it is to let things go mentally...and I just have so much more clarity about everything. I obviously don't know it all, but I feel vastly more empowered and clear about what's happening to me and what to do about it. And since putting my understanding into practice over the last week (with a lot of carefully timed supplements, food, meditation, and other things) I'm feeling sooooo much more energy and focus and motivation.

I will definitely go check out that test, I do want to do more testing on myself. However, in a nutshell I will say that I think for me the missing piece was 1) food (eating more - I was/am a natural undereater) 2) understanding the critical role of mental stress in the hpa axis & cortisol production and making a COMMITMENT to not indulge in stressful thoughts (stress is a "luxury" I can't afford anymore) - & doing whatever it takes to accomplish that 3) Supporting a healthy energy curve / circadian rhythm with supplements / food timing / morning light / evening wind-down 4) Noticing when my "default" emotional/mental responses to things arise and overriding them consciously. Like getting upset at a bad driver in traffic, or ruminating about what somebody said to me. I've always tried to steer myself away from those tendencies, but now I know how critical it is for my health to do that, so I am so much more committed to insisting upon mental calm and redirecting my thoughts and letting things go.
 
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Jerkboy

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233
When I was heavy on starches I would get nausea and a headache from hunger going for a long period between meals. Since keeping starches away I can get hungry, but not in a sickly way and go all day without eating if need be. A bunch of us were cleaning out my dad's hoard in the California desert summer heat and at dinnertime everyone would be crabby hungry while I felt great, and they are all younger than me by many years. Was I hungry too? Yes, but not upset about it.

For me it depends on the starch. White rice does not satiate me but I do like it in combination with a lean protein source.

Wheat products like bread satiate me quite well. Especially sour dough bread. I know Ray Peat is against gluten, etc. I am not personally. I have experimented with both (no starch and starch, incl. gluten) and I feel good on starch as well but metabolic rate has to be high for it not to affect me negatively. In low metabolic rate it will increase candida too much.
 
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For me it depends on the starch. White rice does not satiate me but I do like it in combination with a lean protein source.

Wheat products like bread satiate me quite well. Especially sour dough bread. I know Ray Peat is against gluten, etc. I am not personally. I have experimented with both (no starch and starch, incl. gluten) and I feel good on starch as well but metabolic rate has to be high for it not to affect me negatively. In low metabolic rate it will increase candida too much.
I wasn't talking about being satiated, but more of when the food IS gone and hunger sets in, my hunger now is just a feeling of being light and empty rather than a blood sugar drop that makes me feel ill. It isn't from a one time meal, but more of my liver operating differently now, being more efficient away from starches.
 

yerrag

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Thanks for those tips, I appreciate it.

To be honest, I think the doctor used the term "adrenal fatigue", and in doing my research I discovered the term/concept "hpa axis dysfunction" which made way more sense to me (because it's more precisely correct), and to be even clearer it helped me IMMENSELY to understand what had been happening to me, on a physiological level, and it made SO many things so clear for me.

So for me it was a huge eye opener, and I'm extremely grateful for it. Actually I went deep in my quest to really understand what was happening (the doctor did not give me any of this) because I need to understand things to understand what I should do about them. So what I did was listen to podcasts that explained the physiology of how the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal all work together, and what each's role is in the stress response. I listened to A LOT of interviews with experts about the hpa axis, how the adrenals work, how the stress response works, what parts of the brain do what. It helped me to really UNDERSTAND what was happening in my body - and it just clarified so many things about myself and my emotional responses to things. My low energy. my avoidance of emotional situations, my fear of stress...all explained. I've always mediated, but now I have a physiological understanding of exactly why it's so effective to reducing stress, and why that is so important to an improved hpa axis. (The hpa response chain is triggered by the amygdala;, the amygdala can be controlled by the pre-frontal cortex, and through meditation and visualization your pre-frontal cortext has a stronger control over the amygdala, and therefore the stress response.

So while you're right, the doctor really didn't explain that much (just gave me things to do), just getting that diagnosis led me to discovering so much. Me being a "questioner" (that's an official personality type) I had to delve deep into the understanding exactly what was happening, and now I feel so much clearer about what my "issues" are. I also understand so much more now the role of cortisol, what a good daily cortisol curve looks like (with this knowing, I've been using supplements to support that curve). what I'm physically doing to myself when I indulge in a stressful thought and how CRITICAL it is to let things go mentally...and I just have so much more clarity about everything. I obviously don't know it all, but I feel vastly more empowered and clear about what's happening to me and what to do about it. And since putting my understanding into practice over the last week (with a lot of carefully timed supplements, food, meditation, and other things) I'm feeling sooooo much more energy and focus and motivation.

I will definitely go check out that test, I do want to do more testing on myself. However, in a nutshell I will say that I think for me the missing piece was 1) food (eating more - I was/am a natural undereater) 2) understanding the critical role of mental stress in the hpa axis & cortisol production and making a COMMITMENT to not indulge in stressful thoughts (stress is a "luxury" I can't afford anymore) - & doing whatever it takes to accomplish that 3) Supporting a healthy energy curve / circadian rhythm with supplements / food timing / morning light / evening wind-down 4) Noticing when my "default" emotional/mental responses to things arise and overriding them consciously. Like getting upset at a bad driver in traffic, or ruminating about what somebody said to me. I've always tried to steer myself away from those tendencies, but now I know how critical it is for my health to do that, so I am so much more committed to insisting upon mental calm and redirecting my thoughts and letting things go.
I'm glad you went deep into it and got to learn many things about the HPA axis and the adrenals.

I haven't gotten that far into reading about it to be able to make it into something I can use yet. The subject matter involving the HPA axis spans the corticotrophic, gonadotrophic, thyrotropic, and the somatrotrophic axis in a continual feedback loop, and honestly, it overwhelms me, for the amount of material I have to cover and to remember. I have been reading up but it requires me to be locked up so I can keep myself from getting interrupted.

But even if I were to understand the HPA axis and its related subject matter, and use it to explain to most people, I would have a hard time explaining it. In reading Ray Peat's writings that touch on the HPA axis, he would have to speak in very general terms, as in skimming the surface, in order not to lose his readers.

That's why if I were to explain something to my siblings, I would have to use a different way. And there is a different way.
 
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I came to this ray peat forum about a year ago, with a pretty low appetite. In general I tend to have a low appetite and can get by on very little food. i've never really worried about it until I started having energy issues, and then realized that this could be part of the cause.

Now more recently, after having received an "official" diagnoses of hpa axis dysfunction after blood/saliva lab tests (more specifically an overreactive stress response system that leads to a cycle of high stress/adrenaline energy > crashes) one of the things my doctor prescribed to me for healing is "you must eat every 3 hours" - since the goal is to calm the stress response system, and going without food can be seen as a stressor to the body.

Since i've been more or less doing that, i've noticed that i'm getting more hungry more often. i feel my stomach growling way more frequently (my indicator of when i'm truly hungry) than it did before.

i'm wondering if that's a sign of my metabolism raising? Seems like it would be.
I think it's a lot more complicated than just metabolism rising...

For example, the drug mirtazapine stimulates appetite like crazy. Anything that increases ghrelin (or decreases leptin) will have the same effect
 
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I'm glad you went deep into it and got to learn many things about the HPA axis and the adrenals.

I haven't gotten that far into reading about it to be able to make it into something I can use yet. The subject matter involving the HPA axis spans the corticotrophic, gonadotrophic, thyrotropic, and the somatrotrophic axis in a continual feedback loop, and honestly, it overwhelms me, for the amount of material I have to cover and to remember. I have been reading up but it requires me to be locked up so I can keep myself from getting interrupted.

But even if I were to understand the HPA axis and its related subject matter, and use it to explain to most people, I would have a hard time explaining it. In reading Ray Peat's writings that touch on the HPA axis, he would have to speak in very general terms, as in skimming the surface, in order not to lose his readers.

That's why if I were to explain something to my siblings, I would have to use a different way. And there is a different way.
I had a 9 hour drive a few weeks ago and listened to all of these podcast episodes. By the end I had a much clearer understanding. I would listen in this order, I think:



View: https://pursuinghealth.podbean.com/e/chris-kresser-on-hpa-axis-dysfunction-and-the-stress-response-ph189/


View: https://www.stitcher.com/show/mahan-health-with-dr-hanisha/episode/44-stress-hpa-axis-cortisol-awakening-response-and-more-with-dr-carrie-jones-78519551


 

yerrag

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I had a 9 hour drive a few weeks ago and listened to all of these podcast episodes. By the end I had a much clearer understanding. I would listen in this order, I think:



View: https://pursuinghealth.podbean.com/e/chris-kresser-on-hpa-axis-dysfunction-and-the-stress-response-ph189/


View: https://www.stitcher.com/show/mahan-health-with-dr-hanisha/episode/44-stress-hpa-axis-cortisol-awakening-response-and-more-with-dr-carrie-jones-78519551



I used to have long drives by myself, learned a lot listening to audiobooks then, but podcasts were just in its infancy,

I'm glad you were able to focus on such deep subject matter. I imagine I would often have to rewind a lot when it gets complicated or when my mind drifts off.

I used to get hungry also after every 3 hours, but I went about fixing that problem in another way. I have my story on a current thread started by Vileplume. I didn't know anything about cortisol and the adrenals, much less the HPA axis by the time I fixed my issues, which was about the time I joined RPF.

While it's still important to know about the HPA axis, I'm glad I didn't have to go that deep into it to fix my issues. There are many ways to skin a cat, and it's not a matter of choice which way we end up with. It often is by happenstance. I think I lucked out because had I joined RPF before I fixed my blood sugar issues, I would have taken a circuitous route that for many people here, have lead to nowhere.
 
OP
wealthofwisdom
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I had a 9 hour drive a few weeks ago and listened to all of these podcast episodes. By the end I had a much clearer understanding. I would listen in this order, I think:



View: https://pursuinghealth.podbean.com/e/chris-kresser-on-hpa-axis-dysfunction-and-the-stress-response-ph189/


View: https://www.stitcher.com/show/mahan-health-with-dr-hanisha/episode/44-stress-hpa-axis-cortisol-awakening-response-and-more-with-dr-carrie-jones-78519551



It's actually just the chain reaction that results in a cortisol stress response. It turns out several parts are involved in making that happen, in a hormone cascade. It's not just ONE part of the brain that makes this happen. First the amygdala signals the H, which then signals the P, which then signals the A to release cortisol (and other stress hormones) when a stress reaction occurs, to give us the added energy we need in stressful situations.

The problem arrives when we never feel like the stressful situation is "over", which is what the brain needs to go back to homeostasis. If you walk around feeling constantly stressed (even minor things like deadlines, to-do list, etch), your body takes that as a sign that more cortisol should constantly be pumping to be "ready", and then it reaches a saturation point, at which point the brain says "hey, there's WAY too much cortisol here, we're going to reduce it down to nothing"... At which point energy tanks. Then the signaling can get all out of whack so that you over react to any minor stress with too much cortisol/adrenaline, and then crash afterwards. So in the healing period it's critical to reduce stress, reduce mental stress, reduce physical stress, to tell the body "hey, all stress is gone here. you can go back to normal cortisol production". ( I use "cortisol" as a stand-in for all stress hormones) And also to try to mimic a natural cortisol diurnal curve (the natural curve that cortisol should take during the day).

For example I would have high cortisol in the morning, but then it would quickly start going down. Ideally your cortisol peaks about 40minutes after waking. So I've actually started having a DECAFE coffee first thing in the morning, then 30-40 minutes later having a caffeinated coffee (I'm trying to mimic a healthy cortisol diurnal curve, where energy is highest 40 minutes AFTER waking).

My energy would also go down to zero around 2-3, would take a nap, and then have a SECOND cortisol awakening response at waking up, so a 2nd rush of energy at around 4-5.. which would then mess up my cortisol levels at night. I'm tackling this by eating way more often (not eating is a stress), and taking energizing supplements when I know I typically lack energy, and then CALMING supplements before any potential stressful situation, where i might have a stress overreaction.

I take supplements in the morning that trigger that natural cortisol awakening response (dhea, morning sun on face), and then 8-1pm I take energizing supplements the prevent the crash at around 3-4 (tyrosine has been the best for me, but there are many others), then before any stressful situation (work, stressful conversation) I take supplements that REDUCE the cortisol response (ashwaganda, phosphatidylserine, etc)

I also don't exercise in the morning anymore, because that tires me out. But not exercising at all actually makes me depressed. So I've been exercising (no cardio, just weightlifting) in the evening. Round about 6-7pm I start taking all of my calming supplements. I am taking a lot of supplements, but unlike before, I actually know what each does, and I time it very thoughtfully, to follow a healthy cortisol diurnal curve. If I had to recommend one for energy, it would be tyrosine, especially with coffee.

After doing this for about a week I've been having better sustained energy levels than I have in a long time
 
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I used to have long drives by myself, learned a lot listening to audiobooks then, but podcasts were just in its infancy,

I'm glad you were able to focus on such deep subject matter. I imagine I would often have to rewind a lot when it gets complicated or when my mind drifts off.

I used to get hungry also after every 3 hours, but I went about fixing that problem in another way. I have my story on a current thread started by Vileplume. I didn't know anything about cortisol and the adrenals, much less the HPA axis by the time I fixed my issues, which was about the time I joined RPF.

While it's still important to know about the HPA axis, I'm glad I didn't have to go that deep into it to fix my issues. There are many ways to skin a cat, and it's not a matter of choice which way we end up with. It often is by happenstance. I think I lucked out because had I joined RPF before I fixed my blood sugar issues, I would have taken a circuitous route that for many people here, have lead to nowhere.
I'm glad you got your issues fixed! Yes, I would only recommend a deep dive like this if you're facing relevant problems. Otherwise, focus on more fun things.
 
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wealthofwisdom
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Let me guess, you eat now way more sugar than before peat?
Hmmm...Well I really didn't eat that much sugar at all before. And now I eat sugar when I want it. Which isn't a ton, but at least some every day. Basically I feel ok following my natural urges to eat sugar, when before I would suppress them. But I'm not a huge sweet tooth. That said, today I've had 2 popsicles (natural chocolate) and some gummy bears. I feel like I have a pretty healthy relationship with food, except for being somewhat of an undereater (I easily forget to eat, which I'm being more diligent about now). I eat what I want when I want and it tends to be (in my mind) healthy. I NEVER want to make myself eat anything I don't want, or stop myself eating something I do want. The biggest changes after Peat are: drinking milk (I had stopped most of my adult life), drinking OJ (never did before), and feeling perfectly fine about whatever sugar I want to eat, when I want it. I have also felt less desire to eat nuts and salads, probably a psychosomatic reaction to hearing the evils of PUFA and raw veggies. (But love me a carrot/cucumber/onion/cherry tomato salad. )
 

yerrag

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I'm glad you got your issues fixed! Yes, I would only recommend a deep dive like this if you're facing relevant problems. Otherwise, focus on more fun things.
The good thing about learning the HPA axis is you can understand more of what Ray Peat talks about when he touches on it. It just flies by me.
 
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I came to this ray peat forum about a year ago, with a pretty low appetite. In general I tend to have a low appetite and can get by on very little food. i've never really worried about it until I started having energy issues, and then realized that this could be part of the cause.

Now more recently, after having received an "official" diagnoses of hpa axis dysfunction after blood/saliva lab tests (more specifically an overreactive stress response system that leads to a cycle of high stress/adrenaline energy > crashes) one of the things my doctor prescribed to me for healing is "you must eat every 3 hours" - since the goal is to calm the stress response system, and going without food can be seen as a stressor to the body.

Since i've been more or less doing that, i've noticed that i'm getting more hungry more often. i feel my stomach growling way more frequently (my indicator of when i'm truly hungry) than it did before.

i'm wondering if that's a sign of my metabolism raising? Seems like it would be.

Great question. Imo, I'm leaning towards yes hunger being a sign of better metabolism. I notice when I'm relaxed, or when I take certain stress lowering substances like gaba-a agonists or tribulus, I tend to get hungry significantly more often. When I'm stressed (high heart rate, cold hands and feet, nervous feeling) I can go very long without eating food.
 

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