Does HIV Cause AIDS?

belscb

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In one of Ray's recent coronavirus interviews, he described his skepticism that HIV causes AIDS, appealing to the work of Peter Duesberg. This is intriguing to me, and I'd like to learn more. My approach with any controversial issue is to read up on the best arguments both sides have to offer. Here's what seems to be the best argument in favor of HIV causing AIDS. How would somebody skeptical about HIV/AIDS respond to this below?

[Criteria #3] Transmission pathogenesis: transfer of the suspected pathogen to an uninfected host, man or animal, produces the disease in that host.
[...]
[This] has been fulfilled in tragic incidents involving three laboratory workers with no other risk factors who have developed AIDS or severe immunosuppression after accidental exposure to concentrated, cloned HIV in the laboratory. In all three cases, HIV was isolated from the infected individual, sequenced and shown to be the infecting strain of virus. In another tragic incident, transmission of HIV from a Florida dentist to six patients has been documented by genetic analyses of virus isolated from both the dentist and the patients. The dentist and three of the patients developed AIDS and died, and at least one of the other patients has developed AIDS. Five of the patients had no HIV risk factors other than multiple visits to the dentist for invasive procedures (O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613; O'Brien, 1997; Ciesielski et al. Ann Intern Med 1994;121:886).

In addition, through December 1999, the CDC had received reports of 56 health care workers in the United States with documented, occupationally acquired HIV infection, of whom 25 have developed AIDS in the absence of other risk factors. The development of AIDS following known HIV seroconversion also has been repeatedly observed in pediatric and adult blood transfusion cases, in mother-to-child transmission, and in studies of hemophilia, injection-drug use and sexual transmission in which seroconversion can be documented using serial blood samples (CDC. HIV AIDS Surveillance Report 1999;11[2]:1; AIDS Knowledge Base, 1999). For example, in a 10-year study in the Netherlands, researchers followed 11 children who had become infected with HIV as neonates by small aliquots of plasma from a single HIV-infected donor. During the 10-year period, eight of the children died of AIDS. Of the remaining three children, all showed a progressive decline in cellular immunity, and two of the three had symptoms probably related to HIV infection (van den Berg et al. Acta Paediatr 1994;83:17).

Koch's postulates also have been fulfilled in animal models of human AIDS. Chimpanzees experimentally infected with HIV have developed severe immunosuppression and AIDS. In severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID) mice given a human immune system, HIV produces similar patterns of cell killing and pathogenesis as seen in people. HIV-2, a less virulent variant of HIV which causes AIDS in people, also causes an AIDS-like syndrome in baboons. More than a dozen strains of simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV), a close cousin of HIV, cause AIDS in Asian macaques. In addition, chimeric viruses known as SHIVs, which contain an SIV backbone with various HIV genes in place of the corresponding SIV genes, cause AIDS in macaques. Further strengthening the association of these viruses with AIDS, researchers have shown that SIV/SHIVs isolated from animals with AIDS cause AIDS when transmitted to uninfected animals (O'Neil et al. J Infect Dis 2000;182:1051; Aldrovandi et al. Nature 1993;363:732; Liska et al. AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses 1999;15:445; Locher et al. Arch Pathol Lab Med 1998;22:523; Hirsch et al. Virus Res 1994;32:183; Joag et al. J Virol 1996;70:3189).

The Evidence That HIV Causes AIDS News
 

schultz

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It's an interesting topic.

Reading Duesberg's book might be a start.

Ray has a newsletter on it as well.
 
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belscb

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What's the name of that particular newsletter, or the date? I've only been a subscriber for a couple years.

Does Duesberg's book have an answer to my specific question above?
 

schultz

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What's the name of that particular newsletter, or the date? I've only been a subscriber for a couple years.

Does Duesberg's book have an answer to my specific question above?

It's been a while since I read it. 6 years maybe? It was interesting though. It was published in 1996 so it won't answer some of those questions as they are cases from 1999 and stuff. I remember Ray talking about HIV on one of the older podcasts and thinking that it was such a contrarian opinion that I had to look into it more. That's why I got Duesbergs book.
 
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belscb

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The Perth Group is way more extreme on this question, denying the virus even exists. Ray Peat apparently thinks the virus (HIV) exists, but that it does not explain AIDS symptoms, or at least does not completely explain them, and that hormones etc. are also very important. He seems to say that HIV *might* contribute to symptoms, and that it might also be transmissible, but maybe I'm misunderstanding his arguments. For example, excerpted from the article above:

In animal experiments, and a few human tests, the HIV and similar viruses have produced effects that could plausibly explain some of the conditions seen in AIDS, such as damage to brain cells (C. Pert, R. Sapolsky), and altered steroid secretion. But this is real science, that promises to link up with information about stress, aging, allergy, and biological adaptability.
[...]
Another group (Amirhessami-Aghili and Spector, 1991) found that the presence of the virus can decrease the production of progesterone. Since progesterone blocks (Lee, et al., 1997) the expression (and transmission) of the virus, this suggests how the overgrowth of the virus might be triggered by stress--once progesterone synthesis falls, a vicious circle could get started.
I suppose I don't fully understand what Ray Peat thinks HIV does. Or maybe he hasn't actually stated his opinion on that, and is simply stating possible options?
 

area51puy

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In one of Ray's recent coronavirus interviews, he described his skepticism that HIV causes AIDS, appealing to the work of Peter Duesberg. This is intriguing to me, and I'd like to learn more. My approach with any controversial issue is to read up on the best arguments both sides have to offer. Here's what seems to be the best argument in favor of HIV causing AIDS. How would somebody skeptical about HIV/AIDS respond to this below?

[Criteria #3] Transmission pathogenesis: transfer of the suspected pathogen to an uninfected host, man or animal, produces the disease in that host.​
[...]​
[This] has been fulfilled in tragic incidents involving three laboratory workers with no other risk factors who have developed AIDS or severe immunosuppression after accidental exposure to concentrated, cloned HIV in the laboratory. In all three cases, HIV was isolated from the infected individual, sequenced and shown to be the infecting strain of virus. In another tragic incident, transmission of HIV from a Florida dentist to six patients has been documented by genetic analyses of virus isolated from both the dentist and the patients. The dentist and three of the patients developed AIDS and died, and at least one of the other patients has developed AIDS. Five of the patients had no HIV risk factors other than multiple visits to the dentist for invasive procedures (O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613; O'Brien, 1997; Ciesielski et al. Ann Intern Med 1994;121:886).​
In addition, through December 1999, the CDC had received reports of 56 health care workers in the United States with documented, occupationally acquired HIV infection, of whom 25 have developed AIDS in the absence of other risk factors. The development of AIDS following known HIV seroconversion also has been repeatedly observed in pediatric and adult blood transfusion cases, in mother-to-child transmission, and in studies of hemophilia, injection-drug use and sexual transmission in which seroconversion can be documented using serial blood samples (CDC. HIV AIDS Surveillance Report 1999;11[2]:1; AIDS Knowledge Base, 1999). For example, in a 10-year study in the Netherlands, researchers followed 11 children who had become infected with HIV as neonates by small aliquots of plasma from a single HIV-infected donor. During the 10-year period, eight of the children died of AIDS. Of the remaining three children, all showed a progressive decline in cellular immunity, and two of the three had symptoms probably related to HIV infection (van den Berg et al. Acta Paediatr 1994;83:17).​
Koch's postulates also have been fulfilled in animal models of human AIDS. Chimpanzees experimentally infected with HIV have developed severe immunosuppression and AIDS. In severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID) mice given a human immune system, HIV produces similar patterns of cell killing and pathogenesis as seen in people. HIV-2, a less virulent variant of HIV which causes AIDS in people, also causes an AIDS-like syndrome in baboons. More than a dozen strains of simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV), a close cousin of HIV, cause AIDS in Asian macaques. In addition, chimeric viruses known as SHIVs, which contain an SIV backbone with various HIV genes in place of the corresponding SIV genes, cause AIDS in macaques. Further strengthening the association of these viruses with AIDS, researchers have shown that SIV/SHIVs isolated from animals with AIDS cause AIDS when transmitted to uninfected animals (O'Neil et al. J Infect Dis 2000;182:1051; Aldrovandi et al. Nature 1993;363:732; Liska et al. AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses 1999;15:445; Locher et al. Arch Pathol Lab Med 1998;22:523; Hirsch et al. Virus Res 1994;32:183; Joag et al. J Virol 1996;70:3189).​
The real Anthony Fauci has few chapters on this and how Fauci used his power to shut down any debate and how he basically cancelled Peter duesberg. There was talks of even Fauci and duesberg debating this to Ronald Regan, but somehow Fauci got in Regans ear and got duesberg invite to the whitehouse cancelled.
 

tankasnowgod

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In one of Ray's recent coronavirus interviews, he described his skepticism that HIV causes AIDS, appealing to the work of Peter Duesberg. This is intriguing to me, and I'd like to learn more. My approach with any controversial issue is to read up on the best arguments both sides have to offer. Here's what seems to be the best argument in favor of HIV causing AIDS. How would somebody skeptical about HIV/AIDS respond to this below?
In the shortest way possible, with only two words- Magic. Johnson. Somehow, he got HIV 29 years ago, but is looking today like one of the healthiest 60+ years olds on the planet. His Eulogy of Kobe Bryant (who played a 20 year NBA career after Johnson retired, in part due to the diagnosis) at the 2020 All Star Game proved he is still in really good shape, clearly isn't bedridden, and still has his mental faculties about him.

So, either the test was a false positive, or HIV isn't the probable cause of AIDS. Or, both. Either way, just like COVID, this calls into question the test that's "diagnosing" everyone.
[Criteria #3] Transmission pathogenesis: transfer of the suspected pathogen to an uninfected host, man or animal, produces the disease in that host.​
[...]​
[This] has been fulfilled in tragic incidents involving three laboratory workers with no other risk factors who have developed AIDS or severe immunosuppression after accidental exposure to concentrated, cloned HIV in the laboratory. In all three cases, HIV was isolated from the infected individual, sequenced and shown to be the infecting strain of virus. In another tragic incident, transmission of HIV from a Florida dentist to six patients has been documented by genetic analyses of virus isolated from both the dentist and the patients. The dentist and three of the patients developed AIDS and died, and at least one of the other patients has developed AIDS. Five of the patients had no HIV risk factors other than multiple visits to the dentist for invasive procedures (O'Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613; O'Brien, 1997; Ciesielski et al. Ann Intern Med 1994;121:886).​
Ridiculous. There is no proof that "HIV," even if it was in these patients, caused their "AIDS." The most famous of these patients was Kimberly Bergalis. (You can find her by tracing their cited sources, like this one- The 1990 Florida Dental Investigation: theory and fact - PubMed)

I remember seeing a news segment with her back in the 80's. She was wasting away. Just like someone with AIDS. Or, someone taking high doses of toxic chemotherapy drug. It seems she was certainly taking the later (in the form of AZT, also known as Retrovir, a chemotherapy drug so toxic, that it was never even considered for cancer patients.)


Bergalis is being treated under an experimental protocol at the University of Miami, where she describes the care as "wonderful." The day before this interview, she had a blood transfusion to combat the anemia she developed after treatment with AZT. She is hoping to be placed on an alternative medication— DDL

So, in an article from JAMA, we have confirmation that she was doing "an experimental protocol," and that she was indeed taking the toxic chemotherapy drug AZT.

Quote from Peter Duesberg in the following article-


Similarly, Mr. Fumento characterizes as “nonsense”—again, that characteristically emotive use of language—my view that AZT, not HIV, killed Kimberly Bergalis, even though it is beyond dispute that AZT kills T-cells at 250-millionth of a gram per liter while HIV has never been shown to be toxic to any human cell.


Dr. Alfred Hassig, MD, Professor in Immunology, University of Bern, and a former Director to Swiss Red Cross blood banks:

“Kimberly Bergalis, according to the general press, was a young lady who was found to have antibody to HIV…she was put on AZT…the AZT killed her.”


After being diagnosed HIV positive, Kimberly Bergalis took AZT in the tremendously high doses used in the mid to late 1980s. Today, great numbers of AIDS experts on all sides of the issue acknowledge that AZT is extremely toxic and the high dose treatments given back in Kimberly's time were responsible for countless deaths.

Once Kimberly started taking daily doses of AZT chemotherapy, she wasted away like a typical chemotherapy recipient. She lost weight, muscle mass, her hair and her appetite; she developed rashes, acne and neuropathy to the degree she could hardly walk. If you check a medical dictionary or the Merck Manual, you will find Kimberly Bergalis suffering described most succinctly as side effects of DNA chain terminating chemotherapy treatment.

However unfortunate, Kimberly Bergalis' story does not provide conclusive evidence that AIDS is a contagious condition caused by HIV. In scientific terms, Kimberly's experience would constitute a poorly designed study of one with no control.

Jon Rappoport describes this trick (killing the patient with "medicine" to "confirm" the initial diagnosis) in this speech-


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_nDd9sOqLk
 
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