Does high testosterone make you more likely to be gay or have ED? Some observations from guys I see/know

[FocusedOnHealth]

Very interesting

One thing I noticed, is they have many sexual partners. So is it testosterone driving it? Who knows? I know they take a lot of, shall we say, stimulating drugs to keep them going. I personally think there are a lot more factors at play as to why they have such a strong need for multiple encounters with multiple partners.

 

[Slappy Hands]

Ok so before going in I will say I am NOT pointing fingers at any testosterone users here and this is not bait/trolling but 100% serious observations I have come to see.

I notice a trend that guys with super high T from mega hormone use, not usually unaturally, seem to be more likely bisexual, or more likely to have erection issues?

First anecdote is user TheBeard who is pretty known around here for those who have seen male/testosterone topics. He mentioned he would take humongous amounts of test/experimenting/etc. He also mentioned he was gay ... Or bi? He said he liked transsexuals or something like that. He also said your balls haven't dropped yet if you made fun of his tranny fondness, so presumably he is equating liking trannies with being masculine? Lo and behold...

Another guy more known is a "bodybuilder" who goes by the name of Lenny Persin from Boca Raton, FL area (quite a character -- proceed with caution going down this rabbit hole!). The guy himself mentioned using tren, test, everything under the sun for "bodybuilding." Surprise, surprise ... He has some overlapping relations or "interests" with TheBeard himself ... He also likes trannies. He doesn't just say this like TheBeard without proof (not that anyone wants to see any) but Lenny Persin has actual ... Footage with trannies. Yes. Obviously I am not showing proof of that here but it is there if you doubt my assertions ... Internet magic, I suppose. Yes he has erectile dysfunction too. Can confirm.

Third anecdote -- a young guy from Lookism.net. He was considered "super masculine" and "low trust" on there ... I think some South American kid with a DOM-tier face (low eyebrows; low trust looking which is correlated with prenatal T exposure or such in studies). Basically he was considered a Chad or "high T" ... And he also posted a tranny he slept with too. And wait for it ... He also eventually had erection issues too. Maybe it isn't just supraphysiological levels of T? Maybe it is other factors? All I know is I see LOTS of "masc high T guys" who more often than not turn out bisexual or gay and also tend to have ED or erection issues.

My next case -- porn. In porn with buff or muscly guys they often have poor erection quality and smaller members. I'm not saying all guys go on mega gear to compensate but it does seem pretty common to see big muscly guys in porn who do not have ... Much down below overall. On the flipside I see "feminine" or progestogenic looking males who tend to be the ones with bigger penises and fewer erection issues. Most guys in porn are getting on gear now, and in lots of porn the guys have trouble getting it rock hard ... Coincidence?

I've heard that even behind the scenes the guys CANNOT get hard sometimes at all and need viagra or lots of time as they struggle with erection getting a lot. People say they take stuff to get hard to perform better but that sounds like a lie.

If you told people you took viagra they'd first assume you can't "get it up" not that you want to "enhance" it. Clever cover up?

Guys who drink a lot are said to have high T. Guess what? Most heavy and long term male drinkers have erection issues too. Can't say about the gay or bi part but I am very confident that there are some corrolations with alcohol abuse and testosterone in some situations at least ... But if the guy is "natty" this might be negligible to add....

I keep seeing lots of evidence to my awareness somehow that exogenous megadosing of test or tren or etc. makes guys more likely to turn bi or gay, along with possibly causing erection issues.

There is also the "prison theory" I should add ... Male prisoners forcing sexual acts on other males. "Bubba" or similar presumed rape theories fly by in prison culture of males. Aren't most male prisoners higher testosterone, and/or tend to take AAS too? Interesting, no?

Yet ironically "feminine" or "low T" looking men tend to have these issues less in my view. It seems we have contradictory ideas on what is "manly" sometimes, but I'll just leave it here and let anyone else decide if they want to chime in here on anything of related such they notice/can elaborate on.

ime 90% of the gay community are subs or bottoms because their dicks aren't up to the challenge of tanking another guy and even when they are getting ****88, they have a hard time getting hard, regardless of how big their **** is. comparatively, the idea of letting someone **** me is counter-intuitive and boring.

i have desires for intimacy but as far as sex goes, people are just big bouncy **** holes that need to be pinned down and dominated until i don't feel the need, anymore.

i don't know what my hormone status is but i would be surprised if i was low t. I am strong, toned and don't experience fear or lose my temper, nor do i have any issues with ed.

i also believe that many sub men are 'sluts' just because it's easy. they can't actually **** anything, so they are instead forced to roll over, spread their legs and hope they can convince someone that can, to come over and play with them, hoping to can outcompete all the other ***holes doing the same exact ***t.

alternatively, i have met some "twink" guys who are small and somewhat effeminate (not what you might consider high t, appearance wise), that I could relate to. they were funny, fearless, confident and just enjoyed sex for the sake of it. it takes me less than a second of meeting someone before my instincts peg them as a mincing slut or someone that'll put up a fight, and the sluts are without exception, disgusting to me and the exact type of personality i would assume to be low to no, testosterone.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

One thing I noticed, is they have many sexual partners. So is it testosterone driving it? Who knows? I know they take a lot of, shall we say, stimulating drugs to keep them going. I personally think there are a lot more factors at play as to why they have such a strong need for multiple encounters with multiple partners.

Well, we know that testosterone is the will-power/drive hormone, and estrogen is the sexual desire hormone.

I'm prone to believe that it's fundamentally an estrogen issue, particularly excess estrogen in development (some people can become sex addicts toward the opposite sex, as well, and I'd suggest it's a similar fundamental hormonal problem, with a few tweaks). There have been a host of studies posted by Haidut here, showing the hormonal causes for homosexuality. It was actually just recently discussed in another thread.

 

[TheCedar1]

I & many other guys here have taken progesterone (some even in SUPER HIGH amounts) & it does not turn you gay or alter sexual preferences

There was a case with one of MPMD's subscribers who, while its an anecdote, said that his sexual preference was severely altered after long term trenbolone use.
MPMD theorised that it involves the tren binding with a higher affinity to the progesterone receptors than progesterone itself, while tren also induced neurotoxicity that caused dopamine receptors to degrade in specific parts of the brain like in the prefrontal cortex and striatum, which would severely imbalance dopamine and serotonin and cause HOCD.

 

[Morgan]

ime 90% of the gay community are subs or bottoms because their dicks aren't up to the challenge of tanking another guy and even when they are getting ****88, they have a hard time getting hard, regardless of how big their **** is. comparatively, the idea of letting someone **** me is counter-intuitive and boring.

i have desires for intimacy but as far as sex goes, people are just big bouncy **** holes that need to be pinned down and dominated until i don't feel the need, anymore.

i don't know what my hormone status is but i would be surprised if i was low t. I am strong, toned and don't experience fear or lose my temper, nor do i have any issues with ed.

i also believe that many sub men are 'sluts' just because it's easy. they can't actually **** anything, so they are instead forced to roll over, spread their legs and hope they can convince someone that can, to come over and play with them, hoping to can outcompete all the other ***holes doing the same exact ***t.

alternatively, i have met some "twink" guys who are small and somewhat effeminate (not what you might consider high t, appearance wise), that I could relate to. they were funny, fearless, confident and just enjoyed sex for the sake of it. it takes me less than a second of meeting someone before my instincts peg them as a mincing slut or someone that'll put up a fight, and the sluts are without exception, disgusting to me and the exact type of personality i would assume to be low to no, testosterone.

I have a bit of a weakness for healthy, bearish men, and occasionally want to explore the desire to affectionately "top" them even if I'm a more "receptive" partner; alas they are often all to afraid to be vulnerable or intimate in that regard, as if its some kind of challenge to their "masculinity". Sexual dynamics are always such a funny thing, and I think you'd be surprised what people could be like if they were courageous enough to step outside of some pigeon holed culture.

To add to this topic I think trying to identify peoples hormonal status from appearances or from sexuality is very deceptive.. I'd even argue that some of the physical features associated with what people call masculine could very well just be from physiological conditioning and stress, cortisol especially.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

I'd even argue that some of the physical features associated with what people call masculine could very well just be from physiological conditioning and stress, cortisol especially.

maybe baldness is cortisol related. but no way broad shoulders and big hands/feet/traps are a result of stress - far the opposite: these are caused by low stress hormones, and high youth hormones

an exception is that one can be tall, and this caused by HGH - but these people are often not androgenic in other ways, like having narrow torsos and shoulders, and poor muscle growth - I was a textbook example of this. estrogen can also grow breast tissue, yet won't produce the other feminine features, often pertaining to bone development and shape (often causing strait torsos in the girl, with no hips/thighs and skinny legs.

 

[Slappy Hands]

I have a bit of a weakness for healthy, bearish men, and occasionally want to explore the desire to affectionately "top" them even if I'm a more "receptive" partner; alas they are often all to afraid to be vulnerable or intimate in that regard, as if its some kind of challenge to their "masculinity".

i don't think letting someone **** me makes me less masculine, in fact in that regard i would agree with your inference that it is the other way around - sexually confident men should be up for letting you play with their bum...for me though, and probably for others, it's a trust/dominance issue.

until i'm ready to settle down, i'm not prepared to submit just for the sake of someone elses' ego. it seems boring and fatuous to roll over and it's not what i'm after. like, if i go to war i don't want the other guys to just give up because that is an anti-climax, but what's even more ridiculous would be me going off to war and then just giving up because i want to lose lol. i mean the only way this works is if i legit care about the other guy and want him to feel like a boss, so i can give up in that scenario and pretend like he won ^_^

(but he didn't)

so yea, i'd say if the guy is invested in you, you should peg that butt. peg it like you mean it, and if he runs away, you saved yourself a lifetime of sex with a vanilla icecream.

Sexual dynamics are always such a funny thing, and I think you'd be surprised what people could be like if they were courageous enough to step outside of some pigeon holed culture.

i agree, i think it's genuinely fascinating watching people explore their sexuality. i'm completely devoid of shame and don't look at it any differently than food or sleep, but sex (and drugs) have such severe social taboos, that once people break them for the first time, they can sometimes become VERY disinhibited, even in other parts of their lives lol.

 

[Slappy Hands]

Well I do know this as well, that if they were not specifically sexually abused, they DID grow up in very dysfunctional family situations….where the family was out of order…either they grew up where the mother dominated the father, where there was strong alcohol abuse, where the father abandoned the family or the mother did, so they did not have strong parental examples of healthy family dynamics. And since their family structure was such a mess, the children did not have their parents to fall back upon when they were being abused by the local priest. If mom or dad is drunk all the time, who are you going to turn to when you get abused or bullied?

So a lot of them grew up without a strong sexual identity. And if a male figure came along that showed them some attention in their vulnerable state, they tended to identify with being gay instead of heterosexual. And the same goes for lesbians. Many were sexually abused or came from very dysfunctional home situations.

kinda pathetic, but this is pretty much my childhood haha

my mother is dead and the only thing my father ever taught me was to never have children, never become dependent on booze, and never lose my temper, purely because i was afraid of ending up like him. i didn't even realize i was a text-book case of abuse until i was in my 20's and had it explained to me that sleeping on newspapers and living off cereal was not considered acceptable parenting lol

as a kid i was practically mute and socially autistic because i was genuinely scared stupid. i was having daily fantasies about mass murder before columbine made it popular and had caused tends of thousands in damages playing in building estates because jcbs were awesome. i had no concept of social consequence or conscience. when i realized other people weren't as dangerous as my father, life became ******* hilarious and i decided to make the most of it, and while every other aspect of my life is now in high gear, i'm still gayer than a big bag of rainbows

personally, i've never met a gay guy who had a healthy family unit, and i've met a lot of gay guys.

 

[des yeux]

kinda pathetic, but this is pretty much my childhood haha

my mother is dead and the only thing my father ever taught me was to never have children, never become dependent on booze, and never lose my temper, purely because i was afraid of ending up like him. i didn't even realize i was a text-book case of abuse until i was in my 20's and had it explained to me that sleeping on newspapers and living off cereal was not considered acceptable parenting lol

as a kid i was practically mute and socially autistic because i was genuinely scared stupid. i was having daily fantasies about mass murder before columbine made it popular and had caused tends of thousands in damages playing in building estates because jcbs were awesome. i had no concept of social consequence or conscience. when i realized other people weren't as dangerous as my father, life became ******* hilarious and i decided to make the most of it, and while every other aspect of my life is now in high gear, i'm still gayer than a big bag of rainbows

personally, i've never met a gay guy who had a healthy family unit, and i've met a lot of gay guys.

Did you ever have a romantic relationship with a woman? If so, how would you describe it?

 

[Slappy Hands]

Did you ever have a romantic relationship with a woman? If so, how would you describe it?

yes i first started sexual relations with women when i was 12/13 and i stopped when i was about 16 because they started looking for commitment and i was barely functional, let alone looking for a relationship.

they were awkward experiences and i didn't enjoy them because i saw no purpose in them beyond meagre curiosity.

i was always attracted to older women, too. like, think jennifer coolidge, the type you could run into like a big bouncy castle hahaha. i think a woman could sexually satisfy me if she was patient, but i just can't think of straight sex as anything other than a total life ruiner, not just for me, but for all parties involved. it's the ultimate boner killer lol

 

[des yeux]

yes i first started sexual relations with women when i was 12/13 and i stopped when i was about 16 because they started looking for commitment and i was barely functional, let alone looking for a relationship.

they were awkward experiences and i didn't enjoy them because i saw no purpose in them beyond meagre curiosity.

i was always attracted to older women, too. like, think jennifer coolidge, the type you could run into like a big bouncy castle hahaha. i think a woman could sexually satisfy me if she was patient, but i just can't think of straight sex as anything other than a total life ruiner, not just for me, but for all parties involved. it's the ultimate boner killer lol

12 years old! I cannot imagine what that entailed, but thanks for your answer.

Could I ask why you think straight sex is a life ruiner and boner killer? You mentioned above that sex is different from intimacy - where would you say this disconnect comes from?

 

[Slappy Hands]

12 years old! I cannot imagine what that entailed, but thanks for your answer.

Could I ask why you think straight sex is a life ruiner and boner killer? You mentioned above that sex is different from intimacy - where would you say this disconnect comes from?

every guy i know that's said the words "i don't ever want kids" now has at least one kid, because when you phuck pousseh, eventually pousseh phucks you :P

no offense to any budding parents out there, congratz on being well adjusted enough to manage another human being, but i am not in that boat lol

as far as sex goes, i'm a sadist and i enjoy fighting and violence but only so long as the other party consents. if the other party is a weak af slut that rolls over before i've even taken my clothes off, i'd rather **** myself.

intimacy requires someone i trust enough to discuss the kind of ***t i can say online, but not in person, because people tend to (rightly) see it as a red flag. i have a good instinct for sizing people up but ultimately it just comes down to trust and experience and knowing the other guy is committed enough to stick around. it's basically a good bromance with someone that provides physical and emotional catharsis, and not just a hole to stick myself in

i don't know where the disconnect comes from, precisely, i've always enjoyed violence but it's not conducive to a fulfilling and intimate relationship with another person, at least based on my observations

edit; i also have no desire to dominate females and so there is no impetus for me

 

[japanesedude]

It's well known that guy with power lifter physique,bearded and good hairline is the most attractive in the Gay community

 

[Amazoniac]

This site is not intended for children, go down to the bottom of the page and proceed to the terms and rules section.. Have you ever even walked into a mall or a grocery store on a warm summer day? A lot of women in my age group wear even less than I do and it is constant exposure, I honestly have no idea what you are even on about anymore..

View attachment 35889View attachment 35887

Elite, I also think that the signature appears only for those that is logged in.

If you were a woman, Waynish probably wouldn't mind, there's nothing obscene in the behavior. He might find your deviation from the norm pathological, therefore, it would be a challenge for you to exist without setting up a bad example. Alternatively, you could have stirred something up in him and he's annoyed at you for being able to do this. How about a dedicated pole dance video titled 'To Waynish'? If there's one more view in each video from now on, we have a suspect. Odd visitors' locations can be due to the onion or because of a world trip.

Sexuality will always be explored. For example, I've thought of launching a website, onlyfads.com, for people to record themselves taking a minimum of 1 g of thiamin per session to gratify the paying audience.

yes i first started sexual relations with women when i was 12/13 and i stopped when i was about 16 because they started looking for commitment and i was barely functional, let alone looking for a relationship.

they were awkward experiences and i didn't enjoy them because i saw no purpose in them beyond meagre curiosity.

i was always attracted to older women, too. like, think jennifer coolidge, the type you could run into like a big bouncy castle hahaha. i think a woman could sexually satisfy me if she was patient, but i just can't think of straight sex as anything other than a total life ruiner, not just for me, but for all parties involved. it's the ultimate boner killer lol

1%, I don't know if it applies to you, but dating a mature woman won't come with the expectation that the guy has to be a provider (of safety, leadership, emotional stability, financial, and so on). In fact, rôles might be reversed. It would be natural for the guy that feels incapable to be drawn to woman whose lives are usually established, it takes this weight off the shoulders and both can enjoy the astatic hamsterization.

 

[ursidae]

 

[Slappy Hands]

It would be natural for the guy that feels incapable to be drawn to woman whose lives are usually established, it takes this weight off the shoulders and both can enjoy the astatic hamsterization.

that's my entire attraction to women in a nutshell tbh

so long as they don't need me for anything other than pleasure, i can see them in a very different light than i view men, who i do like pleasuring, but it's a very different dynamic. women are exotic and demand exploration...men are fun and demand domination. i don't think i've ever met a female under say the age of 35, i'd even consider a woman. when it comes to sex, girls just bore the bollocks off me. they're either desperate to nab anything with decent genes so they can start making babies, or they're desperate to get married, validate themselves, and then start making babies. it's legit unsettling for me watching teens manipulating men in their 30's into serious sexual relationships, and the men just dribble and smile like a ******* cow entering the abattoir

i know many men who consider anything that bleeds fair game, for example. the younger they are, the more clout the man gets from his mates. it legit disgusts me. like ******* kids, i just don't get it. where's the fun, you know? at least with an older woman she has either had her family and now wants to relax, or she's foregone it entirely and knows exactly what she wants. if anything, she could be good influence on me at that point (i feel like this is going into surrogate mother/oedipus territory hahaha). in either scenario, i consider this a different species to the vapid idiots running around with fake everything, trying to convince all the nearby dickheads to give it to her

 

[golder]

that's my entire attraction to women in a nutshell tbh

so long as they don't need me for anything other than pleasure, i can see them in a very different light than i view men, who i do like pleasuring, but it's a very different dynamic. women are exotic and demand exploration...men are fun and demand domination. i don't think i've ever met a female under say the age of 35, i'd even consider a woman. when it comes to sex, girls just bore the bollocks off me. they're either desperate to nab anything with decent genes so they can start making babies, or they're desperate to get married, validate themselves, and then start making babies. it's legit unsettling for me watching teens manipulating men in their 30's into serious sexual relationships, and the men just dribble and smile like a ******* cow entering the abattoir

i know many men who consider anything that bleeds fair game, for example. the younger they are, the more clout the man gets from his mates. it legit disgusts me. like ******* kids, i just don't get it. where's the fun, you know? at least with an older woman she has either had her family and now wants to relax, or she's foregone it entirely and knows exactly what she wants. if anything, she could be good influence on me at that point (i feel like this is going into surrogate mother/oedipus territory hahaha). in either scenario, i consider this a different species to the vapid idiots running around with fake everything, trying to convince all the nearby dickheads to give it to her

Women are the source of all life on Earth. The feminine form is, and always will be, mesmerising. No matter what kind of language you dress it up above, with the seedy men attracted to anything with a pulse. The younger they are, on balance, the healthier they are likely to be. I’m equally repulsed by it and I find those greasy predators vile. That particular culture and my terrible health from my terrible life choices held me back from pursuing women. Having said that, I don’t find it an abberation from what should be considered ‘normal’. Your language and perspective is more representative of the trauma you experienced when you were younger (which for the record I massively empathise with and have overlap in my own life).

 

[FocusedOnHealth]

yes i first started sexual relations with women when i was 12/13 and i stopped when i was about 16 because they started looking for commitment and i was barely functional, let alone looking for a relationship.

they were awkward experiences and i didn't enjoy them because i saw no purpose in them beyond meagre curiosity.

i was always attracted to older women, too. like, think jennifer coolidge, the type you could run into like a big bouncy castle hahaha. i think a woman could sexually satisfy me if she was patient, but i just can't think of straight sex as anything other than a total life ruiner, not just for me, but for all parties involved. it's the ultimate boner killer lol

Sounds like your family of origin did a number on you. I have seen (and heard) this over and over.
I’m sorry it was that way….I do know if people get into counciling, particularly deep spiritual counciling, that they are able to heal and come to terms with their shitty backgrounds….I know of friends who have made genuine peace with how they were raised, but it does take being brutally honest with themselves and with what happened to them. They reach a point of acceptance of themselves and their losses. And about how they were treated.

Lots of forgiveness but that doesn’t mean that what happened to them gets a free pass…but they forgive and then they begin to be free of their unhealthy entanglements. But it does take work. Healing can come if you are willing to allow it, and allow God to fill up those empty, damaged spaces with His divine peace.

 

[Slappy Hands]

Women are the source of all life on Earth. The feminine form is, and always will be, mesmerising. No matter what kind of language you dress it up above, with the seedy men attracted to anything with a pulse. The younger they are, on balance, the healthier they are likely to be. I’m equally repulsed by it and I find those greasy predators vile. That particular culture and my terrible health from my terrible life choices held me back from pursuing women. Having said that, I don’t find it an abberation from what should be considered ‘normal’. Your language and perspective is more representative of the trauma you experienced when you were younger (which for the record I massively empathise with and have overlap in my own life).

yes i once had a friend explain how he wanted to ride a 12 year old because he could smell how fertile they were. i just thought "different strokes for different folks" lol

i wouldn't let past life choices deter you from pursuing women, if that is what you want. if you're single and relatively independent you have a decent head start.

Sounds like your family of origin did a number on you. I have seen (and heard) this over and over.
I’m sorry it was that way….I do know if people get into counciling, particularly deep spiritual counciling, that they are able to heal and come to terms with their shitty backgrounds….I know of friends who have made genuine peace with how they were raised, but it does take being brutally honest with themselves and with what happened to them. They reach a point of acceptance of themselves and their losses. And about how they were treated.

i would somewhat agree with this but sequestering myself from my childhood has been relatively successful and i do not feel like i have enough issues to warrant revisiting it, at least currently. counselling is not for me as it requires, as you say, honesty, and i am just not prepared to discuss certain aspects of my life with anyone unless there is a seriously big reward for doing so lol

as i said, i did not feel personally victimized by what happened because it didn't seem out of the ordinary, and nobody's life is perfect

Lots of forgiveness but that doesn’t mean that what happened to them gets a free pass…but they forgive and then they begin to be free of their unhealthy entanglements. But it does take work. Healing can come if you are willing to allow it, and allow God to fill up those empty, damaged spaces with His divine peace.

i would say i find spiritual peace in self-management. diet, sex, exercise, profit, meditation, artistic expression etc.

i know that when i feel good, rage just seems so exhausting. in fact i used to use any violent thoughts as a marker of ill health; that is, if i eat something and then find i am ruminating on dark topics, i don't eat that again. this led me away from starch and pretty much everything except fruit, liver and milk. coupled with calisthenics and my own space, i'd say i'm at peace most of the time, even in highly stressful situations

sex is different, because i don't think repression is healthy, but i also don't see anything wrong with indulging my desires with a consenting adult. as annie lennox said, some of them want to abuse you, some of them want to be abused etc

 

[FocusedOnHealth]

yes i once had a friend explain how he wanted to ride a 12 year old because he could smell how fertile they were. i just thought "different strokes for different folks" lol

i wouldn't let past life choices deter you from pursuing women, if that is what you want. if you're single and relatively independent you have a decent head start.



i would somewhat agree with this but sequestering myself from my childhood has been relatively successful and i do not feel like i have enough issues to warrant revisiting it, at least currently. counselling is not for me as it requires, as you say, honesty, and i am just not prepared to discuss certain aspects of my life with anyone unless there is a seriously big reward for doing so lol

as i said, i did not feel personally victimized by what happened because it didn't seem out of the ordinary, and nobody's life is perfect





i would say i find spiritual peace in self-management. diet, sex, exercise, profit, meditation, artistic expression etc.

i know that when i feel good, rage just seems so exhausting. in fact i used to use any violent thoughts as a marker of ill health; that is, if i eat something and then find i am ruminating on dark topics, i don't eat that again. this led me away from starch and pretty much everything except fruit, liver and milk. coupled with calisthenics and my own space, i'd say i'm at peace most of the time, even in highly stressful situations

sex is different, because i don't think repression is healthy, but i also don't see anything wrong with indulging my desires with a consenting adult. as annie lennox said, some of them want to abuse you, some of them want to be abused etc

Fair enough :)