Does Creatine supplementation raise phosphorus levels in the body?

[Mossy]

...so creatine with cheese can prevent the trapping of sulfur for methylation and allow it to be passed for other purposes.

Interesting. I’m still learning Amazoniacanese, so much of what you wrote will take a few runs through my secret decoder ring before I get it, but this part was quite clear. Thank you.

 

[Mossy]

Wanting gain more muscle that’s why I wanted to try creatine but if it increases phosphate then I will probably stop taking it. I don’t take much at all - a scoop mix with oj and maybe 3x per wk. Hardly put a dent on that tub. That’s probably why I don’t notice any +/- effects from it. I like eating meat so taking creatine will increase more phosphate in my system. On the other hand I feel great w glycine when I took it before for a couple months mixing it w chamomile tea and raw honey before bed.

@Amazoniac - too late to return it. I did get a good deal as a Swanson member but not worth it if it causes phosphorous to increase. Thanks for your post!

Without fail, creatine helps me to bulk up; albeit, seemingly, with some water gain. But just slightly. I am now taking smaller doses, at 1.25 g, in an attempt to mitigate any water gain and hair loss.

 

[Amazoniac]

didnt Amazoniac say it doesnt cause phosphorus increase? but it could increase precursors which include methionine, choline, glycine, arginine
i get overlapping effects from supplementing choline and creatine. havent tried supplementing arginine or methionine (besides citrulline iirc that may turn to arginine) and creatine doesnt seem to cause glycine like effects...

I later commented why I think Sate is right in his assumption (about phosphate levels): additional creatine isn't equally compensated by a shrinking in synthesis, so the increase seems to be inevitable. Since switching to a vegetarian diet leads to a drop in creatine content of tissues and reversing the process comes with benefits, where does the bar should be set? What's ideal for recovery? Is average omnivore levels superoptimal or vegetarians/vegans has them suboptimal? Given that the latter groups derive benefit from increasing, it should be fine for omnivore levels to serve as reference for creatine/phosphocreatine level. Raising creatine artificially can discount phosphate variations up to that baseline and consider all that's spared in the process. For example, vegetarians who supplement experience what may be viewed as a normalization or improvement in creatine/phosphocreatine content while noticing an enhancement in methylation capacity. Functional insufficiencies might leave some people in a similar condition to that of vegans, they can be running low in spite of adequate intake of substrates, in this case, it can be advantageous to obtain it regardless of their fate. Dismissing creatine because it's aging due to an effect on phosphate levels is as misguided as paying for one of Sate's program.

- Whole body creatine and protein kinetics in healthy men and women: effects of creatine and amino acid supplementation
- Low-Dose Creatine Supplementation Lowers Plasma Guanidinoacetate, but Not Plasma Homocysteine, in a Double-Blind, Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial
- Creatine synthesis and amino acid sparing in neonatal piglets

 

[Dr. B]

I later commented why I think Sate is right in his assumption (about phosphate levels): additional creatine isn't equally compensated by a shrinking in synthesis, so the increase seems to be inevitable. Since switching to a vegetarian diet leads to a drop in creatine content of tissues and reversing the process comes with benefits, where does the bar should be set? What's ideal for recovery? Is average omnivore levels superoptimal or vegetarians/vegans has them suboptimal? Given that the latter groups derive benefit from increasing, it should be fine for omnivore levels to serve as reference for creatine/phosphocreatine level. Raising creatine artificially can discount phosphate variations up to that baseline and consider all that's spared in the process. For example, vegetarians who supplement experience what may be viewed as a normalization or improvement in creatine/phosphocreatine content while noticing an enhancement in methylation capacity. Functional insufficiencies might leave some people in a similar condition to that of vegans, they can be running low in spite of adequate intake of substrates, in this case, it can be advantageous to obtain it regardless of their fate. Dismissing creatine because it's aging due to an effect on phosphate levels is as misguided as paying for one of Sate's program.

- Whole body creatine and protein kinetics in healthy men and women: effects of creatine and amino acid supplementation
- Low-Dose Creatine Supplementation Lowers Plasma Guanidinoacetate, but Not Plasma Homocysteine, in a Double-Blind, Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial
- Creatine synthesis and amino acid sparing in neonatal piglets

how does it raise phosphate levels? so that means it could raise pth, cause kidney damage potentially over time? would it actually have a negative effect on recovery if it lowers calcium too much then?

 

[YamnayaMommy]

I’m a woman in her thirties. Besides caffeine, creatine is the only supplement that I’m certain works. I was training pull-ups for six months. Couldn’t get a single pull-up. Loaded creatine for a week and then reduced to maintenance dose of 5g a day. Within two weeks I got my first pull-up. Six months later, I can always get at least five pull-ups on the first set. High protein Peaty diet for two years.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

I’m a woman in her thirties. Besides caffeine, creatine is the only supplement that I’m certain works. I was training pull-ups for six months. Couldn’t get a single pull-up. Loaded creatine for a week and then reduced to maintenance dose of 5g a day. Within two weeks I got my first pull-up. Six months later, I can always get at least five pull-ups on the first set. High protein Peaty diet for two years.

Now working on handstand. Very close. Amazing fitness gains since beginning creatine. :) plus more energy to chase babies and toddlers around.

 

[Dr. B]

I’m a woman in her thirties. Besides caffeine, creatine is the only supplement that I’m certain works. I was training pull-ups for six months. Couldn’t get a single pull-up. Loaded creatine for a week and then reduced to maintenance dose of 5g a day. Within two weeks I got my first pull-up. Six months later, I can always get at least five pull-ups on the first set. High protein Peaty diet for two years.

what was your diet before starting and how much protein were you getting in?
i wonder what its effects are long term? i used it daily for over 6 years... 5g a day. im not sure what the side effects were

 

[Amazoniac]

how does it raise phosphate levels? so that means it could raise pth, cause kidney damage potentially over time? would it actually have a negative effect on recovery if it lowers calcium too much then?

By taking up phosphate groups from ATP. These changes are occuring inside cells (instead of serum) and bound phosphate should be under control, not acting arbitrarily. However, to my surprise, they found in the experiment below that inorganic phosphate increased as well:

- Common questions and misconceptions about creatine supplementation: what does the scientific evidence really show?
↳ [175] Multinuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy of high-energy phosphate metabolites in human brain following oral supplementation of creatine-monohydrate

Spoiler

"Cr dosage was determined based on the specific weight for each subject: 0.3 g/kg/day (20 g/70 kg) for the first 7 days and 0.03 g/kg/day (2 g/70 kg) for the next 7 days."

"One auxiliary finding, which was not expected, is that the brain inorganic phosphate level increased by 9.8% over the 2-week period in the creatine group as compared to the placebo group (generalized estimation equation: coef=0.49, z=2.39, P=0.017) (Fig. 6)."

"In the present study, changes in high-energy phosphate metabolism following oral supplementation of Cr were measured using 31P-MRS. The advantage of 31P-MRS combined with 1H-MRS includes the capability to correlate the results of brain Cr change and its relation to changes in high-energy phosphate metabolism. Our finding that PCr increased, though marginally, over time in the creatine group suggests that increased brain Cr levels shifted the equilibrium in the creatine kinase reaction: Cr + ATP = PC + ADP + H+, toward the right. This hypothesis is also supported by the finding that notDio-NTP levels, which are primarily derived from ATP signals, significantly decreased over time. We interpret our findings of increased Cr and marginally increased PCr as an increased high-energy phosphate pool, and decreased notDio-NTP levels as a homeostatic compensation to maintain equilibrium."

"As the creatine kinase reaction is sensitive to pH, these values were also calculated. There were no significant differences in between-time, between-group, or time=group interaction in the pH values (creatine vs. placebo groups: 7.11±0.03 vs. 7.11±0.02 at baseline; 7.13±0.03 vs. 7.14±0.05 at first week; 7.13±0.03 vs. 7.12±0.04 at second week)."​

"Our findings of increased Cr and marginally increased PCr by oral supplementation of creatine may be of potential value in providing a new strategy for treating brain disorders. Although our main findings are decreased ATP and marginally increased PCr in healthy volunteers following oral creatine supplementation, we interpret the decreased ATP, not as a decrease in the total high-energy phosphate reservoir, but as a reflection of a shift in metabolite concentrations to maintain equilibrium via the creatine kinase reaction. Therefore, we suggest that oral creatine supplementation may help restore the decreased high-energy pool reported in a number of psychiatric disorders."

Whether kidneys are harmed by creatine has been debated for a long time (read first link), some researchers dared to consider its use in kidney disease.

The liver should age faster than the kidneys with high doses:

- Changes of tissue creatine concentrations upon oral supplementation of creatine-monohydrate in various animal species

Spoiler

"According to current principles of animal extrapolation [29], dosages for animals were chosen such that they were equivalent to 400 – 600 mg creatine-monohydrate per kg human body weight. Such dosages are applied in athletes and in patients with inborn errors of creatine synthesis [30] with the aim to augment the muscle and body creatine pool. Under these prerequisites, to mice and rats, a dosage of 2 g per kg body weight per day (i.e. 1.4 % and 2.4 % of daily nutritional intake) was given. To guinea pigs, due to physiological low water consumption and limited water-solubility of creatine-monohydrate, a dosage of 1.3 g creatine-monohydrate per kg body weight per day (i.e. 2.8 % of daily nutritional intake) was given. Extrapolating to humans, this dosage corresponds to 400 mg per kg human body weight."

Not sure what you meant by lowering killcium too much, but these processes should be regulated as drugs.
- The Creatine Kinase System Is Essential for Optimal Refill of the Sarcoplasmic Reticulum Ca2+ Store in Skeletal Muscle
- Creatine supplementation improves intracellular Ca2+ handling and survival in mdx skeletal muscle cells

There are so many assumptions condensed in Sate's paragraph that we would have to digest them in parts. Working with the premise that phosphate is toxic is going to distort your judgement. Ignorance allows you to move fast, to not hesitate in creating another rule and launching another cure.

i wonder what its effects are long term? i used it daily for over 6 years... 5g a day. im not sure what the side effects were

- Absorption of creatine supplied as a drink, in meat or in solid form

"Dietary intake of creatine is highly variable, ranging from zero in the case of a vegetarian to as high as 15 g or more in a 75 kg human consuming only meat (e.g. the traditional Inuit diet and that of other peoples living north of the Arctic circle; Vaughan, 1999)."​

- Life expectancy in the Inuit-inhabited areas of Canada, 1989 to 2003

In 1991, life expectancy at birth in the Inuit-inhabited areas was about 68 years, which was 10 years lower than for Canada overall. From 1991 to 2001, life expectancy in the Inuit-inhabited areas did not increase, although it rose by about two years for Canada as a whole. As a result, the gap widened to more than 12 years.

Conclusion: creatine makes you die earlier and the cure for premature aging and death is to avoid it.

 

[Amazoniac]

Other "organs" are likely to benefit from supplemental creatine before the brain does (and higher doses might be needed to affect it) because it resists deficits:

- Brain creatine depletion in vegetarians? A cross-sectional ¹H-magnetic resonance spectroscopy (¹H-MRS) study

Spoiler

Subjects was healthy.

 

[Vanset]

i get nocturia if i take creatine. I took 5g in the early morning with one extra glass of water/oj and i started waking up 3-4 time a night to pee. Urine turned white/milky/cloudy. This would happen even after i stopped drinking any liquids past 2 pm.

 

[Dr. B]

i get nocturia if i take creatine. I took 5g in the early morning with one extra glass of water/oj and i started waking up 3-4 time a night to pee. Urine turned white/milky/cloudy. This would happen even after i stopped drinking any liquids past 2 pm.

whats the side effects to creatine for you? or what do you think its doing, kidney damage? maybe raises phosphate and methionine and all those toxic aminos?>

 

[YamnayaMommy]

what was your diet before starting and how much protein were you getting in?
i wonder what its effects are long term? i used it daily for over 6 years... 5g a day. im not sure what the side effects were

My diet has always been decent. I lived in Italy in my early 20s and got in the habit of eating foods made from scratch at home. High protein, lots of dairy, low fat, etc. Peaty since 2019. Maybe the benefit from creatine can be attributed in part to the fact that I’ve never eaten a lot of meat.

 

[Vanset]

scratch that, it wasn't creatine. i was 99% sure that it was creatine but it was actually tribulus that was giving me nocturia

 

[Dr. B]

I later commented why I think Sate is right in his assumption (about phosphate levels): additional creatine isn't equally compensated by a shrinking in synthesis, so the increase seems to be inevitable. Since switching to a vegetarian diet leads to a drop in creatine content of tissues and reversing the process comes with benefits, where does the bar should be set? What's ideal for recovery? Is average omnivore levels superoptimal or vegetarians/vegans has them suboptimal? Given that the latter groups derive benefit from increasing, it should be fine for omnivore levels to serve as reference for creatine/phosphocreatine level. Raising creatine artificially can discount phosphate variations up to that baseline and consider all that's spared in the process. For example, vegetarians who supplement experience what may be viewed as a normalization or improvement in creatine/phosphocreatine content while noticing an enhancement in methylation capacity. Functional insufficiencies might leave some people in a similar condition to that of vegans, they can be running low in spite of adequate intake of substrates, in this case, it can be advantageous to obtain it regardless of their fate. Dismissing creatine because it's aging due to an effect on phosphate levels is as misguided as paying for one of Sate's program.

- Whole body creatine and protein kinetics in healthy men and women: effects of creatine and amino acid supplementation
- Low-Dose Creatine Supplementation Lowers Plasma Guanidinoacetate, but Not Plasma Homocysteine, in a Double-Blind, Randomized, Placebo-Controlled Trial
- Creatine synthesis and amino acid sparing in neonatal piglets

what are the side effects for creatine? potential excess choline, methionine, arginine?

 

[Amazoniac]

what are the side effects for creatine? potential excess choline, methionine, arginine?

- Finding the balance: The role of S-adenosylmethionine and phosphatidylcholine metabolism in development of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease

"Since the Km of GNMT [Glycine N-Methyltransferase] for SAMe is relatively high compared to other methyltransferases, the primary role of GNMT is postulated to be the elimination of excess hepatic SAMe. Thus, PEMT [Phosphatidylethanolamine Methyltransferase (to synthesize phosphatidylcholine)] may be an “overflow pathway” for SAMe when GNMT is absent.[11] However, increased flux of methyl groups through PEMT, unlike GNMT, enhances TG synthesis. The level of hepatic SAMe is altered by the transition from the fed to fasting state and by consumption of a high versus low protein diet.[10]"​

- Plasma guanidino compounds are altered by oral creatine supplementation in healthy humans

"In Fig. 2, we attempt to summarize the effects of oral creatine supplementation on the metabolic pathways around arginine. Following this proposed scheme, downregulation of AGAT expression stimulates flux through secondary pathways leading to formation of GVA, argininic acid, homoarginine, and possibly NO but not of urea. These effects occur after 1 wk of 20 g/day supplementation but not after 10–20 wk of 5 g/day [Table 1]."​

There was an elevation of plasma arginine in the last weeks with 5 g creatine/d, but the baseline values was all over the place. It were also higher in the first link of the post that you replied, but wasn't significant. There's room for adaptation, sparing of supplemental creatine is (unfortunately) only partial.

- Arginine de novo and nitric oxide production in disease states

 

[GorillaHead]

Hollyshit if u have dandruff. Avoid creatine like the plague

 

[Dr. B]

Hollyshit if u have dandruff. Avoid creatine like the plague

WHat happened to you with it