Does Creatine supplementation raise phosphorus levels in the body?

Julian

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I was considering supplementing creatine, however, I found what Nathan Hatch said about it on his website:

CREATINE is often used as a body-building, athletic supplement, but creatine raises levels of phosphate in the body (by reducing its elimination) and supplementing it can dramatically alter the balance between calcium/phosphorus, which does have stimulatory effects but in the long term will have undesirable effects on health like reduced skin resiliency and premature aging. It is best avoided.
Source: Supplement Guide — **** Portion Control

Is there any truth to this? Will taking creatine screw up the calcium-phosphorus ratio in the body?
 

Amazoniac

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:banghead:

The body doesn't synthesize it and supplementation wouldn't lift this 'burden'?

- Creatine - Wikipedia

"The average amount of total creatine (creatine and phosphocreatine) stored in the body is approximately 120 mmol/kg of dry muscle mass.[18] However the upper limit of creatine storage post supplementation and dietary intervention is believed to be around 160 mmol/kg. Studies have also shown that 1–2% of intramuscular creatine is degraded per day and an individual would need to consume about 1–3 grams of creatine per day to maintain average (unsupplemented) creatine storage. For most individuals about half (1 g/day) of this daily need is consumed from an omnivorous diet, while the remaining amount is synthesized in the liver and kidneys."​

I thought that an effect on utilization was in mind, but he clearly stated that it's retained. I tried to search for information on creatine supplementation and changes in phosphate excretion, but couldn't find anything. Why not ask Sate to back up his claims?
 
OP
Julian

Julian

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I thought that an effect on utilization was in mind, but he clearly stated that it's retained. I tried to search for information on creatine supplementation and changes in phosphate excretion, but couldn't find anything. Why not ask Sate to back up his claims?

He usually doesn't share the studies he bases his claims on, unfortunately.
 

Dr. B

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He usually doesn't share the studies he bases his claims on, unfortunately.
ive read that on examine.com iirc, or the selfhacked website. that it raises phosphorus.
im not totally sure on that. but it does have very similar effects to supplementing choline.
normally, arginine, methionine, glycine, and choline are used to make it. Ray doesnt like supplementing any of those but glycine. creatine supplementation and choline supplementation both cause oily hair/skin, increase in acne, increase in anxiety, and increase in strength in the gym for me.
 

Amazoniac

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He usually doesn't share the studies he bases his claims on, unfortunately.
Possibly went like this: read Raj's 'Phosphate, activation, and aging', tried 5 g of creatine on an occasion, didn't benefit or experienced some minor inconvenient, associated creatine phosphate with it, tied it all together in Sate's fashion and concluded that it shouldn't be used by anyone; it's aging.

When dealing with a substance that is produced in the body, known to be involved in important processes and has therapeutic applications, if a downside is suspected, it has to be weighed against the rest. Unfortunate is the people that take his word for it and might make their recovery more difficult. What's 'best avoided' is purchasing his coaching programs.

ive read that on examine.com iirc, or the selfhacked website. that it raises phosphorus.
im not totally sure on that. but it does have very similar effects to supplementing choline.
normally, arginine, methionine, glycine, and choline are used to make it. Ray doesnt like supplementing any of those but glycine. creatine supplementation and choline supplementation both cause oily hair/skin, increase in acne, increase in anxiety, and increase in strength in the gym for me.
I skimmed through both of them and there was nothing unforeseen in terms of phosphorus metabolism. Taking in conservative doses that don't exceed needs shouldn't lead to disturbances, it's replacing what would be synthesized:
- The influence of creatine on the excretion of phosphates by the kidney
- Changing to a vegetarian diet reduces the body creatine pool in omnivorous women, but appears not to affect carnitine and carnosine homeostasis: A randomised trial

A hidden feature in creatine supplements allows the person to consume only what's lost daily (or less depending on diet). How this would alter phosphorus balance in a detrimental way is beyond me. It's kept secret by the elite, they shoot for a double profit in aging you with creatine [P↑] and then selling novel anti-aging products such as oleic acid [P↓].

I've been exchanging messages with a member that settled with doses of 1-2 g/d for being more tolerable while still effective.

Even with supraphysiological doses that are enough to raise phosphate, I have no idea how the guy is jumping to those conclusions. Elevation of phosphate alone is meaningless, ATP is also a phosphorylated molecule. Since creatine works as a buffer and cycles, it can liberate phosphate, but it can also take it up; the toxin is consumed and produced. Its availability might result in a decreased pool of inorganic phosphate that's liable to interact with killcium and perhaps precipitate in cells, so it can actually be protective.


Sparing the substrates used in the process can be a concern, but it can also be why it's therapeutic for some people. You must be familiar with the publication below. What they deem to be a metabolic burden, you're considering to be some sort of metabolic outlet.


1627050510527.png


"We have employed the comprehensive data on creatinine excretion provided by Cockcroft and Gault (1976) to provide estimates of the loss of total creatine via its spontaneous conversion to creatinine. We estimate a loss of 14.6 mmol/day for a 70 kg male in the 20- to 39-year age group. Mean losses for women are about 80% that of men. The rate of creatinine loss decreases almost linearly with age; 70 kg men aged 70–79 years have a mean loss of 7.8 mmol/day (Brosnan and Brosnan 2007)."

Glycine

"In addition to endogenous glycine synthesis, the mean daily glycine intakes of US males and females, respectively, in the 19–30 age bracket are 62 and 37 mmol, respectively; in the 71+ age bracket the mean daily glycine intakes are 39 and 30 mmol, respectively, for males and females (Food and Nutrition Board 2005). Of course much of this will be used for protein synthesis, especially collagen synthesis, but this will be matched by a comparable rate of proteolysis in adult humans in nitrogen balance. It is clear, therefore, that the dietary provision of glycine appreciably exceeds our calculated rates of creatine synthesis such that this synthesis imposes a minor burden on the provision of glycine."​

Methylation

"Since the synthesis of creatine requires the provision of a methyl group from S-adenosylmethionine we must consider quantitative aspects of methyl group metabolism. Our diets are awash in methyl groups, in such compounds as alanine, the three branched-chain amino acids and ethanol. However, such methyl groups, which are linked to a carbon atom, are unreactive and we do not have the enzymatic machinery to make use of them. Rather, we must consider
compounds that can provide methyl groups to S-adenosylmethionine, the universal methyl donor. These are often referred to as ‘‘labile methyl groups’’ and are linked to such electronegative (relative to carbon) atoms as nitrogen and sulfur. These may be obtained from the diet (i.e. methionine, betaine, or choline via betaine) or produced endogenously via methylneogenesis by a process requiring the successive actions of serine hydroxymethyltransferase (SHMT), methylene tetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) and methionine synthase (MS). Methylneogenesis is remarkably dependent on B vitamin status. MTHFR uses NADPH as a reductant (niacin), contains FAD as a prosthetic group (riboflavin) and produces methylene-tetrahydrofolate as a product (folate). In addition, MS is one of only two mammalian enzymes known to require vitamin B12, in the form of methylcobalamin, as a prosthetic group."

"Data on dietary intakes (Food and Nutrition Board 2005) of the US population reveal a mean daily intake of 17 mmol of methionine for males in the 19–30 age bracket and 10 mmol in females. The comparable data for males and females in the 71+ age bracket are 11 and 8 mmol, respectively. There are also data, acquired by means of stable isotope methodology, on the total transmethylation flux in humans, i.e. the sum of all methylation reactions that utilize SAM. These estimates, for a 70 kg person, are approximately 16.7–23.4 mmol/day in young adults and somewhat less in elderly subjects (15.5–21.7 mmol/day) (Mudd et al. 2007). Transmethylation rates in women may be 10% higher than in males (Fukagawa et al. 2000). Thus, creatine synthesis consumes a very substantial portion (about 40%) of the SAM used for all of the methyltransferase reactions in the body and, clearly, imposes a considerable burden on methyl balance and on methionine metabolism."

..and there's diet contribution.​

Arginine

"The mean dietary intake of arginine in US adults averages 34 and 20 mmol/day, respectively, in males and females in the 19- to 30-year age bracket, and 22 and 17 mmol/day, respectively, for males and females in the 71+-year old bracket. Of course, endogenously synthesized arginine must be added to these numbers. Arginine is synthesized via an intestinal renal axis whereby citrulline produced in the intestine is converted to arginine in the kidneys (Dhanakoti et al. 1990). Direct measurement of renal arginine production, by measuring arteriovenous differences across the kidney, indicate a rate of about 4 mmol/day (Tizianello et al. 1980), whereas isotopic estimates of the conversion of plasma citrulline to arginine suggest a rate of about 9 mmol/day (Castillo et al. 1993a). The sum of mean dietary arginine availability (the sum of intake and endogenous production) may, therefore, vary between about 20 and 45 mmol/day in young adults. To complicate matters further it appears that in humans as much as 40% of dietary arginine may be catabolized during first-pass metabolism in the gut (Castillo et al. 1993b). Despite the variability in these estimates, it is evident that creatine synthesis may impose an appreciable burden on arginine supply and metabolism."

"The nature of this burden needs to be considered. AGAT only utilizes the amidino group from arginine, generating ornithine (Fig. 1). Ornithine has two principal metabol fates. It may be oxidized, a process that is initiated by ornithine aminotransferase, and it may also be reconverted to arginine, a process that requires carbamylphosphate synthetase 1 (CPS1), argininosuccinate synthase (****) and argininosuccinate lyase (ASL). CPS1 has a very limited distribution, being essentially confined to the liver and the small intestine. Notably, it is absent from the kidney (Goping et al. 1992), though **** and ASL are highly expressed there (Dhanakoti et al. 1990). However, the kidney does express significant activities of ornithine aminotransferase, primarily in the proximal tubules (Levillain et al. 2000) which is also where renal AGAT is found (McGuire et al. 1986). Although this is not a settled issue it seems likely that ornithine produced by AGAT, at least in the kidney, may be catabolized rather than salvaged within the arginine family of amino acids."​

"It is clear that creatine synthesis is a major metabolic process and can impose a particular metabolic burden, especially on methionine (methyl group) and arginine metabolism. The analysis of this burden presented above dealt with individuals who ingested the mean levels of glycine, methionine or arginine for the US population. There are a number of situations, however, where the burden may be even greater."

- "Low protein intake"
- "Vegetarians"
- "Elderly"
- "Altered arginine synthesis or catabolism"
- "Inborn errors of urea synthesis"​

Glycine is not an issue.

Regarding methylation, there are plenty of discussions on the topic, depends on the state of the person.

The fate of the released ornithine (check out the Wikipedia link ⇈) is important because if it isn't degraded, it could be recycled and creatine that's synthesized in the body would have its sinking effect on arginine lessen'd. If we ignore the released ornithine, it's one molecule of arginine for each creatine. Due to differences between them, 1 g of creatine taken would spare about 1.33 g of arginine (for context, the average consumption of arginine is about 4.5 g/d). However, I don't know what happens to arginine after sufficiency of creatine is reached; in theory, extra creatine at this point would be indifferent because without supplementation, no more arginine would be used. I'm also not aware of a hospitalization from collagen with creatine.

The Examine article refers to this publication, I'm posting out of curiosity since we know that there can be adaptations over time that go undetect'd:

- Plasma guanidino compounds are altered by oral creatine supplementation in healthy humans

"In Fig. 2, we attempt to summarize the effects of oral creatine supplementation on the metabolic pathways around arginine. Following this proposed scheme, downregulation of AGAT expression stimulates flux through secondary pathways leading to formation of GVA, argininic acid, homoarginine, and possibly NO but not of urea. These effects occur after 1 wk of 20 g/day supplementation but not after 10–20 wk of 5 g/day [Table 1]."​
 

Dr. B

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Possibly went like this: read Raj's 'Phosphate, activation, and aging', tried 5 g of creatine on an occasion, didn't benefit or experienced some minor inconvenient, associated creatine phosphate with it, tied it all together in Sate's fashion and concluded that it shouldn't be used by anyone; it's aging.

When dealing with a substance that is produced in the body, known to be involved in important processes and has therapeutic applications, if a downside is suspected, it has to be weighed against the rest. Unfortunate is the people that take his word for it and might make their recovery more difficult. What's 'best avoided' is purchasing his coaching programs.


I skimmed through both of them and there was nothing unforeseen in terms of phosphorus metabolism. Taking in conservative doses that don't exceed needs shouldn't lead to disturbances, it's replacing what would be synthesized:
- The influence of creatine on the excretion of phosphates by the kidney
- Changing to a vegetarian diet reduces the body creatine pool in omnivorous women, but appears not to affect carnitine and carnosine homeostasis: A randomised trial

A hidden feature in creatine supplements allows the person to consume only what's lost daily (or less depending on diet). How this would alter phosphorus balance in a detrimental way is beyond me. It's kept secret by the elite, they shoot for a double profit in aging you with creatine [P↑] and then selling novel anti-aging products such as oleic acid [P↓].

I've been exchanging messages with a member that settled with doses of 1-2 g/d for being more tolerable while still effective.

Even with supraphysiological doses that are enough to raise phosphate, I have no idea how the guy is jumping to those conclusions. Elevation of phosphate alone is meaningless, ATP is also a phosphorylated molecule. Since creatine works as a buffer and cycles, it can liberate phosphate, but it can also take it up; the toxin is consumed and produced. Its availability might result in a decreased pool of inorganic phosphate that's liable to interact with killcium and perhaps precipitate in cells, so it can actually be protective.


Sparing the substrates used in the process can be a concern, but it can also be why it's therapeutic for some people. You must be familiar with the publication below. What they deem to be a metabolic burden, you're considering to be some sort of metabolic outlet.



"We have employed the comprehensive data on creatinine excretion provided by Cockcroft and Gault (1976) to provide estimates of the loss of total creatine via its spontaneous conversion to creatinine. We estimate a loss of 14.6 mmol/day for a 70 kg male in the 20- to 39-year age group. Mean losses for women are about 80% that of men. The rate of creatinine loss decreases almost linearly with age; 70 kg men aged 70–79 years have a mean loss of 7.8 mmol/day (Brosnan and Brosnan 2007)."
Glycine
"In addition to endogenous glycine synthesis, the mean daily glycine intakes of US males and females, respectively, in the 19–30 age bracket are 62 and 37 mmol, respectively; in the 71+ age bracket the mean daily glycine intakes are 39 and 30 mmol, respectively, for males and females (Food and Nutrition Board 2005). Of course much of this will be used for protein synthesis, especially collagen synthesis, but this will be matched by a comparable rate of proteolysis in adult humans in nitrogen balance. It is clear, therefore, that the dietary provision of glycine appreciably exceeds our calculated rates of creatine synthesis such that this synthesis imposes a minor burden on the provision of glycine."​

Methylation
"Since the synthesis of creatine requires the provision of a methyl group from S-adenosylmethionine we must consider quantitative aspects of methyl group metabolism. Our diets are awash in methyl groups, in such compounds as alanine, the three branched-chain amino acids and ethanol. However, such methyl groups, which are linked to a carbon atom, are unreactive and we do not have the enzymatic machinery to make use of them. Rather, we must consider​
compounds that can provide methyl groups to S-adenosylmethionine, the universal methyl donor. These are often referred to as ‘‘labile methyl groups’’ and are linked to such electronegative (relative to carbon) atoms as nitrogen and sulfur. These may be obtained from the diet (i.e. methionine, betaine, or choline via betaine) or produced endogenously via methylneogenesis by a process requiring the successive actions of serine hydroxymethyltransferase (SHMT), methylene tetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) and methionine synthase (MS). Methylneogenesis is remarkably dependent on B vitamin status. MTHFR uses NADPH as a reductant (niacin), contains FAD as a prosthetic group (riboflavin) and produces methylene-tetrahydrofolate as a product (folate). In addition, MS is one of only two mammalian enzymes known to require vitamin B12, in the form of methylcobalamin, as a prosthetic group."​
"Data on dietary intakes (Food and Nutrition Board 2005) of the US population reveal a mean daily intake of 17 mmol of methionine for males in the 19–30 age bracket and 10 mmol in females. The comparable data for males and females in the 71+ age bracket are 11 and 8 mmol, respectively. There are also data, acquired by means of stable isotope methodology, on the total transmethylation flux in humans, i.e. the sum of all methylation reactions that utilize SAM. These estimates, for a 70 kg person, are approximately 16.7–23.4 mmol/day in young adults and somewhat less in elderly subjects (15.5–21.7 mmol/day) (Mudd et al. 2007). Transmethylation rates in women may be 10% higher than in males (Fukagawa et al. 2000). Thus, creatine synthesis consumes a very substantial portion (about 40%) of the SAM used for all of the methyltransferase reactions in the body and, clearly, imposes a considerable burden on methyl balance and on methionine metabolism."​
..and there's diet contribution.​


Arginine
"The mean dietary intake of arginine in US adults averages 34 and 20 mmol/day, respectively, in males and females in the 19- to 30-year age bracket, and 22 and 17 mmol/day, respectively, for males and females in the 71+-year old bracket. Of course, endogenously synthesized arginine must be added to these numbers. Arginine is synthesized via an intestinal renal axis whereby citrulline produced in the intestine is converted to arginine in the kidneys (Dhanakoti et al. 1990). Direct measurement of renal arginine production, by measuring arteriovenous differences across the kidney, indicate a rate of about 4 mmol/day (Tizianello et al. 1980), whereas isotopic estimates of the conversion of plasma citrulline to arginine suggest a rate of about 9 mmol/day (Castillo et al. 1993a). The sum of mean dietary arginine availability (the sum of intake and endogenous production) may, therefore, vary between about 20 and 45 mmol/day in young adults. To complicate matters further it appears that in humans as much as 40% of dietary arginine may be catabolized during first-pass metabolism in the gut (Castillo et al. 1993b). Despite the variability in these estimates, it is evident that creatine synthesis may impose an appreciable burden on arginine supply and metabolism."​
"The nature of this burden needs to be considered. AGAT only utilizes the amidino group from arginine, generating ornithine (Fig. 1). Ornithine has two principal metabol fates. It may be oxidized, a process that is initiated by ornithine aminotransferase, and it may also be reconverted to arginine, a process that requires carbamylphosphate synthetase 1 (CPS1), argininosuccinate synthase (****) and argininosuccinate lyase (ASL). CPS1 has a very limited distribution, being essentially confined to the liver and the small intestine. Notably, it is absent from the kidney (Goping et al. 1992), though **** and ASL are highly expressed there (Dhanakoti et al. 1990). However, the kidney does express significant activities of ornithine aminotransferase, primarily in the proximal tubules (Levillain et al. 2000) which is also where renal AGAT is found (McGuire et al. 1986). Although this is not a settled issue it seems likely that ornithine produced by AGAT, at least in the kidney, may be catabolized rather than salvaged within the arginine family of amino acids."​

"It is clear that creatine synthesis is a major metabolic process and can impose a particular metabolic burden, especially on methionine (methyl group) and arginine metabolism. The analysis of this burden presented above dealt with individuals who ingested the mean levels of glycine, methionine or arginine for the US population. There are a number of situations, however, where the burden may be even greater."​
- "Low protein intake"​
- "Vegetarians"​
- "Elderly"​
- "Altered arginine synthesis or catabolism"​
- "Inborn errors of urea synthesis"​


Glycine is not an issue.

Regarding methylation, there are plenty of discussions on the topic, depends on the state of the person.

The fate of the released ornithine (check out the Wikipedia link ⇈) is important because if it isn't degraded, it could be recycled and creatine that's synthesized in the body would have its sinking effect on arginine lessen'd. If we ignore the released ornithine, it's one molecule of arginine for each creatine. Due to differences between them, 1 g of creatine taken would spare about 1.33 g of arginine (for context, the average consumption of arginine is about 4.5 g/d). However, I don't know what happens to arginine after sufficiency of creatine is reached; in theory, extra creatine at this point would be indifferent because without supplementation, no more arginine would be used. I'm also not aware of a hospitalization from collagen with creatine.

The Examine article refers to this publication, I'm posting out of curiosity since we know that there can be adaptations over time that go undetect'd:

- Plasma guanidino compounds are altered by oral creatine supplementation in healthy humans

"In Fig. 2, we attempt to summarize the effects of oral creatine supplementation on the metabolic pathways around arginine. Following this proposed scheme, downregulation of AGAT expression stimulates flux through secondary pathways leading to formation of GVA, argininic acid, homoarginine, and possibly NO but not of urea. These effects occur after 1 wk of 20 g/day supplementation but not after 10–20 wk of 5 g/day [Table 1]."​

its true that supplementing it would allow the body to produce less, but that may be the key problem. for some people it also causes hair loss, and this is due to the methylation effect. maybe if someones already over methylating, or in a poor metabolic state, supplementing things like choline or creatine can cause or increase hair loss.
if you supplement the creatine, I'd imagine that your body retains or develops an overabundance of the arginine, methionine, and choline you're normally consuming and putting towards creatine production. there's obviously two ways to look at that, you could say it is beneficial and allows those nutrients to be used for other functions, or could also say it causes an excess of those nutrients thus side effects. those three things are nutrients/amino acids that Peat agrees with getting minimal intake of but generally doesn't otherwise like. I think this is why some of the people getting the most benefit from creatine are vegetarians, or people not eating much protein. If you're already consuming a high protein diet with methionine, choline, and arginine, then supplementing creatine will likely create an over abundance of those amino acids. of course, some may need or benefit from more methionine, choline, or arginine. those examples you mentioned are in fact people who would likely benefit the most and experience the least side effects from creatine. now if someone's eating lots of dairy, eggs, liver, they may get excess choline/methylation symptoms from creatine. and the excess choline can probably still help in some aspects like strength training.

it may be another one of the mainstream sites.
the site had a side effects section which said something like "creatine can increase phosphate levels in the body and this can cause digestive upset for some people"
it was something of that sort. i really think it was on selfhacked (which links studies but may not be 100% reliable). it may have been deleted off selfhacked, maybe someone there lokoed into it further.

the guy on that f portion control website in OP later changes to saying it changes the ratio of phosphorus to calcium. that guys face looks very familar, i feel like ive seen him post here or at least someone using a similar pic?
 

Amazoniac

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its true that supplementing it would allow the body to produce less, but that may be the key problem. for some people it also causes hair loss, and this is due to the methylation effect. maybe if someones already over methylating, or in a poor metabolic state, supplementing things like choline or creatine can cause or increase hair loss.
if you supplement the creatine, I'd imagine that your body retains or develops an overabundance of the arginine, methionine, and choline you're normally consuming and putting towards creatine production. there's obviously two ways to look at that, you could say it is beneficial and allows those nutrients to be used for other functions, or could also say it causes an excess of those nutrients thus side effects. those three things are nutrients/amino acids that Peat agrees with getting minimal intake of but generally doesn't otherwise like. I think this is why some of the people getting the most benefit from creatine are vegetarians, or people not eating much protein. If you're already consuming a high protein diet with methionine, choline, and arginine, then supplementing creatine will likely create an over abundance of those amino acids. of course, some may need or benefit from more methionine, choline, or arginine. those examples you mentioned are in fact people who would likely benefit the most and experience the least side effects from creatine. now if someone's eating lots of dairy, eggs, liver, they may get excess choline/methylation symptoms from creatine. and the excess choline can probably still help in some aspects like strength training.

it may be another one of the mainstream sites.
the site had a side effects section which said something like "creatine can increase phosphate levels in the body and this can cause digestive upset for some people"
it was something of that sort. i really think it was on selfhacked (which links studies but may not be 100% reliable). it may have been deleted off selfhacked, maybe someone there lokoed into it further.

the guy on that f portion control website in OP later changes to saying it changes the ratio of phosphorus to calcium. that guys face looks very familar, i feel like ive seen him post here or at least someone using a similar pic?
The person that I mentioned was experiencing hair loss with it and mitigated by sticking to low doses.

I agree on the concern and that the situations listed tend to benefit more from it, but the applications are broad. A state of abundance is not compatible with sickness, generalized malnutrition is common and sparing compounds are welcome; repair of damaged tissues is a likely scenario.

This is assuming that substrates are obtained and used properly, there are cases with compromised digestion and sluggish enzymes function that lead to insufficiency in spite of adequate intake of substrates, they're wasted. A person may be overdosing niassassin and consuming betraine along attempting to make up for the methyl group depletion, but what if the transference doesn't occur as expected? It might end up forcing the body to priotize methylation to excrete niassassin metabolites, betraine is diverted or can't be used, so in effect you'll be drawing methyl groups from an already scarce pool without compensation. On the other hand, supplemental creatine can bypass impairments in synthesis and let the body decide how it's best to distribute what's spared.

It's not necessary to seek creatine saturation, supplementing as replacement should impact metabolism without phosphate pertubations. Low doses are enough to make a difference, but if more is needed, it shouldn't be painted in bad light based on phosphate levels.

Creatine won't benefit everyone, these aspects have to be pondered when considering its use, but it can't be written off like that.
 
OP
Julian

Julian

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Hmm dunno what to do yet.

The reason I want to try creatine supplementation is because I think I might have methylation problems since I experience histamine issues. I figured that if I help methylation by consuming creatine, it will help disposing the excess histamine. (Kinda the stuff that Chris Masterjohn preaches).

However, I am also trying to lose weight and more phosphorus might not be beneficial for that. Also, I have been introducing more oleic acid into my diet since Nathan Hatch came up with the new theory that oleic acid deficiency causes hyperphosphatemia and is, therefore, the missing link when it comes to improving cellular respiration and CO2 production. So far it does seem to help.

Would be cool to see a study that measures phosphate levels in the body after creatine supplementation or something.
 
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valdz

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Ugh, just got this 2lb tub from swanson and I should've gotten glycine instead. Thanks!
 

Mossy

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Ugh, just got this 2lb tub from swanson and I should've gotten glycine instead. Thanks!

Are you saying you should've gotten glycine over creatine? If so, would that be due to the hair loss aspect?

Do you mind sharing what your objectives are? I can tell you from experience, that I would not be able to substituent glycine for creatine. Creatine gives me energy and endurance, where glycine makes me groggy and sleepy. For what it's worth, I feel both can make me bloated, but where creatine can dry my system, glycine tends to help with dryness. I do feel that creatine may have a negative effect on hair.

Coincidentally, I've just reduced my creatine dose, in an attempt to do exacdtly what Amazoniac has describedmitigating negative side effects.
 

Amazoniac

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Hmm dunno what to do yet.

The reason I want to try creatine supplementation is because I think I might have methylation problems since I experience histamine issues. I figured that if I help methylation by consuming creatine, it will help disposing the excess histamine. (Kinda the stuff that Chris Masterjohn preaches).

However, I am also trying to lose weight and more phosphorus might not be beneficial for that. Also, I have been introducing more oleic acid into my diet since Nathan Hatch came up with the new theory that oleic acid deficiency causes hyperphosphatemia and is, therefore, the missing link when it comes to improving cellular respiration and CO2 production. So far it does seem to help.

Would be cool to see a study that measures phosphate levels in the body after creatine supplementation or something.
One concern that I have is not counteracting the hypophosphatemic, anti-aging effect of oleic acid by avoiding supplemental creatine, since it's the only form that interacts with phosphate. It may sound far-fetched, but in too little aging there won't be the effortless wisdom credibility that it would otherwise confer or the risk of becoming a striking example of anachronicity (Anachronicity - Wiktionary), where you'll turn into an attraction with your corded devices.

I'm not aware of creatine facilitating the gain of fat.

Ugh, just got this 2lb tub from swanson and I should've gotten glycine instead. Thanks!
Should be in time to return and dodge this bullet.

Are you saying you should've gotten glycine over creatine? If so, would that be due to the hair loss aspect?

Do you mind sharing what your objectives are? I can tell you from experience, that I would not be able to substituent glycine for creatine. Creatine gives me energy and endurance, where glycine makes me groggy and sleepy. For what it's worth, I feel both can make me bloated, but where creatine can dry my system, glycine tends to help with dryness. I do feel that creatine may have a negative effect on hair.

Coincidentally, I've just reduced my creatine dose, in an attempt to do exacdtly what Amazoniac has describedmitigating negative side effects.
It's thanks to athletes that creatine was popularized, but it's also them serving as base that might blur the picture on appropriate dosing outside of the performance-enhancement context. There are users that will ditch it before considering doses lower than 2 g/d for believing that it's an insignificant amount. Some will judge their experience by a perturbing loading period with an abrupt change in great excess of needs, and a share of their loss is probably being covered by diet. Women might benefit from less.

The choline in milch is primarily water-soluble, should be lost in processing to cheese, the sulfur amino acids content is lowered too, so creatine with cheese can prevent the trapping of sulfur for methylation and allow it to be passed for other purposes.

Some subjects here manifested signs of deficiency already in the standardizing phase, with diets providing 550 mg/70 kg bw, and wasn't apt to enter the depletion-repletion phase:


There are extraordinary requirements that are going to benefit from relieving measures. Also, the members that reject choline no matter how bad a shortage gets.
 
OP
Julian

Julian

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One concern that I have is not counteracting the hypophosphatemic, anti-aging effect of oleic acid by avoiding supplemental creatine, since it's the only form that interacts with phosphate. It may sound far-fetched, but in too little aging there won't be the effortless wisdom credibility that it would otherwise confer or the risk of becoming a striking example of anachronicity (Anachronicity - Wiktionary), where you'll turn into an attraction with your corded devices.

I'm not sure if you're making a joke or what you're actually saying here. Would you care to explain yourself in plain English? :)
 

Amazoniac

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I'm not sure if you're making a joke or what you're actually saying here. Would you care to explain yourself in plain English? :)
I tried, but joked when you insisted on this as if nothing was brought up and sathanized the thread further.

If you compare vegans with omnivores that may have half of their loss compensated by diet, there's no proportional decrease in creatine levels, no tanking to null observed; endogenous synthesis sustains it. There is resistance when increasing as well, a share of excess creatine taken is eliminated, and no proportional boost either.

What's relevant then is how endogenous synthesis is affected depending on the supply of exogenous sources. I think that what can be argued that would make Sate's assumption correct in terms of phosphate increase is that there's no threshold for repression of synthesis, it's a gradual inhibition as the consumption goes up, so the muscle content must have to be increased above normal for a major inhibition to occur. Of the total amount that's lost and replenished, exogenous sources (diet and supplement) seem to be interchangeable, but not either one with synthesis because it doesn't appear to halt when the intake is moderately elevated.

In the 'Plasma guanidino..' publication posted, the drop in circulating guanidinoacetate (first metabolite) can be reflecting this, but I'm not sure what's actually happening in tissues when it comes to rate of synthesis.

If you want an idea of how muscle is impacted, check this out:
- Muscle creatine loading in men (Table 2: 3 g/d)

I haven't read, but may be of interest:
- The Antiaging Properties of Creatine | Life Extension
- The Creatine Kinase System in Human Skin: Protective Effects of Creatine Against Oxidative and UV Damage In Vitro and In Vivo
- Dermal penetration of creatine from a face-care formulation containing creatine, guarana and glycerol is linked to effective antiwrinkle and antisagging efficacy in male subjects
 

Dr. B

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I tried, but joked when you insisted on this as if nothing was brought up and sathanized the thread further.

If you compare vegans with omnivores that may have half of their loss compensated by diet, there's no proportional decrease in creatine levels, no tanking to null observed; endogenous synthesis sustains it. There is resistance when increasing as well, a share of excess creatine taken is eliminated, and no proportional boost either.

What's relevant then is how endogenous synthesis is affected depending on the supply of exogenous sources. I think that what can be argued that would make Sate's assumption correct in terms of phosphate increase is that there's no threshold for repression of synthesis, it's a gradual inhibition as the consumption goes up, so the muscle content must have to be increased above normal for a major inhibition to occur. Of the total amount that's lost and replenished, exogenous sources (diet and supplement) seem to be interchangeable, but not either one with synthesis because it doesn't appear to halt when the intake is moderately elevated.

In the 'Plasma guanidino..' publication posted, the drop in circulating guanidinoacetate (first metabolite) can be reflecting this, but I'm not sure what's actually happening in tissues when it comes to rate of synthesis.

If you want an idea of how muscle is impacted, check this out:
- Muscle creatine loading in men (Table 2: 3 g/d)

I haven't read, but may be of interest:
- The Antiaging Properties of Creatine | Life Extension
- The Creatine Kinase System in Human Skin: Protective Effects of Creatine Against Oxidative and UV Damage In Vitro and In Vivo
- Dermal penetration of creatine from a face-care formulation containing creatine, guarana and glycerol is linked to effective antiwrinkle and antisagging efficacy in male subjects
does milk and whey protein contain creatine, taurine, carnsosine/beta alanine, inosine and carnitine, or do they simply provide the precursor amino acids to make those in the body?
 
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valdz

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Are you saying you should've gotten glycine over creatine? If so, would that be due to the hair loss aspect?

Do you mind sharing what your objectives are? I can tell you from experience, that I would not be able to substituent glycine for creatine. Creatine gives me energy and endurance, where glycine makes me groggy and sleepy. For what it's worth, I feel both can make me bloated, but where creatine can dry my system, glycine tends to help with dryness. I do feel that creatine may have a negative effect on hair.

Coincidentally, I've just reduced my creatine dose, in an attempt to do exacdtly what Amazoniac has describedmitigating negative side effects.
Wanting gain more muscle that’s why I wanted to try creatine but if it increases phosphate then I will probably stop taking it. I don’t take much at all - a scoop mix with oj and maybe 3x per wk. Hardly put a dent on that tub. That’s probably why I don’t notice any +/- effects from it. I like eating meat so taking creatine will increase more phosphate in my system. On the other hand I feel great w glycine when I took it before for a couple months mixing it w chamomile tea and raw honey before bed.

@Amazoniac - too late to return it. I did get a good deal as a Swanson member but not worth it if it causes phosphorous to increase. Thanks for your post!
 

Dr. B

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Wanting gain more muscle that’s why I wanted to try creatine but if it increases phosphate then I will probably stop taking it. I don’t take much at all - a scoop mix with oj and maybe 3x per wk. Hardly put a dent on that tub. That’s probably why I don’t notice any +/- effects from it. I like eating meat so taking creatine will increase more phosphate in my system. On the other hand I feel great w glycine when I took it before for a couple months mixing it w chamomile tea and raw honey before bed.

@Amazoniac - too late to return it. I did get a good deal as a Swanson member but not worth it if it causes phosphorous to increase. Thanks for your post!
didnt Amazoniac say it doesnt cause phosphorus increase? but it could increase precursors which include methionine, choline, glycine, arginine
i get overlapping effects from supplementing choline and creatine. havent tried supplementing arginine or methionine (besides citrulline iirc that may turn to arginine) and creatine doesnt seem to cause glycine like effects...
 
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valdz

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didnt Amazoniac say it doesnt cause phosphorus increase? but it could increase precursors which include methionine, choline, glycine, arginine
i get overlapping effects from supplementing choline and creatine. havent tried supplementing arginine or methionine (besides citrulline iirc that may turn to arginine) and creatine doesnt seem to cause glycine like effects...
you're right... Maybe lower dosage is better. I just recall someone I knew taking creatine and developed kidney stones. I think he was taking higher amounts.
 

Dr. B

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you're right... Maybe lower dosage is better. I just recall someone I knew taking creatine and developed kidney stones. I think he was taking higher amounts.
i think methyl groups are supposed to help clean the liver, maybe its just getting the minimum. maybe one of those amino acids or choline harms the kidneys. the creatine would likely cause you to indirectly get extra choline, methionine, etc. hence why the vegans or vegetarians seem to get the most benefit and least issues with creatine supplements.
i think everything is created, even taurine and even coq10. those things involve b vitamins, taurine also involves cysteine i think. supplementing taurine could give you some symptoms similar to supplementing cysteine.
 
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valdz

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Makes sense with the vegans and vegetarians but I’m neither of those so Idk if I should be messing w this stuff. Thanks.
 
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