Does Blocking Estrogen Cause Spontaneous Expulsion Of Fibroids?/necrotic Tissue Etc

[Amazigh]

During a CAT scan I had recently, it was discovered that I have several large uterine fibroids and my uterus is the size of a 5 month pregnancy. Normally the treatments are a. estrogen and progesterone blockers, b. embolization or removal of a fibroid, and c. hysterectomy. For the number and size of the fibroids, embolization or surgical removal of each fibroid is not an option. No way will I take progesterone blockers, and hysterectomy would be my last option.

My bloodwork indicated that I have a 2:10 ratio of estrogen to progesterone (1:10 is ideal), which was AFTER I had been taking upwards of 120 mg of progesterone for a couple of months, and prolactin was on the high end of the “normal” range. For a few weeks, I took 5 drops of 5-adhp (which I recently replaced with 500mg of pregnenolone), and continued the ~120 mg of progesterone (as well as 4 drops of metergoline & 2 of lisuride, which really helped with breast pain, and elevated serotonin while I work on my digestive issues).

Since then, I’ve been experiencing “spontaneous expulsion” of the fibroids. In the studies I’ve read, “spontaneous expulsion” is considered very rare and they don’t know what causes it. It is more common in women who have the embolization procedure, in which they block an artery that feeds the fibroid and causes the tissue to die off. The studies I read mentioned that the tissue of the fibroids sloughs off or may come out in pieces, and that the tissue is necrotic and gangrenous. One of the risks mentioned is sepsis. In one case study of spontaneous expulsion, they put the woman on antibiotics and methylergometrin, which is used as a uterine tonic (but can have serious side effects).

My questions:

• Is the sloughing off/expulsion as described above also an effect of blocking estrogen? I can’t find any literature on it. As I mentioned, they don’t know why some women will spontaneously expel fibroids to begin with.
• I’m concerned about having “necrotic” and “gangrenous” tissue up in there. Another study mentioned that embolization of multiple or large fibroids was not a good idea said that it increases the risk of sepsis (my mom died of sepsis, unrelated to fibroids though). I took a course of Flagyl and it cleared up some of the symptoms of infection. Maybe I should keep some on hand at all times?
• They gave the woman in the study methylergometrin. Is there a safe(r) smooth-muscle/uterine tonic I could check out?
• Anything other helpful info I should know?

FYI if they haven’t shrunk by next summer (1 year) I will have to go for the hysterectomy. My enlarged uterus is causing problems on my other compressed organs (eg. incontinence, etc) and the necrotic tissue thing doesn’t sound very safe long term.

Thanks for any info.

 

[foodandtheworld]

Have you been able to contact Dr. Peat about the sloughing off the fibroids? Hopefully one of the forum members can share his email with you (I don't have it).

Anyway, I came across a few interviews where he discussed fibroids, in case you haven't seen them:

Ray Peat :
ANDREW: [...] I know Dr. Peat you would agree that estrogen is probably one of the main contributory factors for fibroids.
RAY PEAT: Oh definitely all thyroid causes the ratio of estrogen to progesterone and androgens to be very high and both endometriosis, uterine fibroids and also breast fibrocystic disease all of these go with high estrogen, low progesterone and low thyroid function.

Ray Peat :
CALLER: Have you done any research on the connection between high estrogen levels and fibroid tumors and obesity?
LAYNA BERMAN: Of course.
RAY PEAT: Sure, that was well documented by 1950. Alexander Lipschutz and his group showed that the very smallest incredibly small dose of estrogen that he used, if it was allowed to act continuously without interruption by pregnenolone or progesterone or thyroid was first produced fibromas in the uterus, then the breast, then the intestine, then the fibromas tended to progress eventually to cancer of every organ. He was one of the people who documented the natural history of estrogen- induced cancers, and fibromas are just an early influence of estrogen primarily in the uterus and breast but ultimately in all connective tissues and other types of cell.
CALLER: What can you do of those?
RAY PEAT: Thyroid is the basic thing. I have had people get into a slightly hyperthyroid state taking a good balanced thyroid supplement and month by month they have documented that t he thyroid alone is able to shrink the uterine fibroids.
LAYNA BERMAN: Really without using progesterone?
RAY PEAT: Yeah, the progesterone was tested and does work but partly it works through the thyroid and the essential thing is to take enough thyroid to get your estrogen way down even below normal for a while.

Ray Peat :
[CALLER?]: Okay. I’m a follower of Mr. Peat. I haven’t seen him – anything mentioned about uterine fibroids. What is your suggestion as the best way to get rid of them? Serrapeptase and other enzymes have not worked for me.
RAY PEAT: I think normalizing thyroid is the best thing. I had an experience with a woman who was – I think she was 40 at the time and hadn’t had any kids and wanted to get pregnant and had a fibroid plugging the end of her uterus by the fallopian tubes, about the size of a tennis ball, and I explained the physiology to her and got her confident that she knew what was happening. And she adjusted taking enough thyroid that she could keep her estrogen level down with the other hormones up. And it happened that her pulse averaged about 110 per minute. And her doctor told her that she would die from keeping her pulse that fast, but she had an ultrasound every month. And every month that she kept her thyroid at that level, the fibroid shrank. And I think it was around March or April that she started. And by August, the fibroid had disappeared and she was pregnant.

It is also mentioned a few times in "From PMS to Menopause" if you do a CTRL+F of "fibro" Full text of "FROM PMS To MENOPAUSE"

I also came across this study after a cursory search on PubMed:
Spontaneous expulsion of large submucosal uterine fibroid without embolisation – a case study

"There is one documented case of a submucosal cervical fibroid sloughing spontaneously following elective Caesarean delivery at 37 weeks gestation. 12 It is speculated that the conditions of pregnancy and delivery mimic those conditions present following uterine artery embolisation (namely reduced perfusion, uterine contraction, and endometrial sparseness) leading to a sloughing effect. 12 To the best of our knowledge, there is no documented case of an intrauterine fibroid undergoing this spontaneous process in association with labour or delivery, as in this case study.

This case highlights the importance of close surveillance of fibroid growth as well as fetal growth, particularly when fibroids are greater than 200 cm 3 in size. Identification of women with such fibroids should be made early in pregnancy to allow close monitoring. This case demonstrates the rare occurrence of spontaneous embolisation and expulsion of a uterine fibroid. It is possible this process was triggered by rapid hormonal change and mechanical effects of induction of labour. This process resulted in a normal uterus on follow up ultrasound and will likely be associated with a good outcome for future pregnancies."​

I only pasted the conclusion from that case study because it reminded me of this other interview: Ray Peat
JOHN BARKHAUSEN: Is that perhaps why some women who get fibroids, they've noticed that the fibroids go away if they get pregnant and likely don't return?
RAY PEAT: Oh, I don't think I had heard of that but yes, progesterone was recommended for many years for treating making fibroids regress but partly that involves increased thyroid function, progesterone is needed to be in balance for the thyroid to work and then the thyroid working causes the liver to lower the estrogen level systemically. So . sometimes just one dose of progesterone is all it takes to treat the thyroid to function to stimulate new progesterone synthesis and to lower estrogen systemically.

I hope you are able to get more insight from other members here or from Dr. Peat himself.

 

[Jackrabbit]

During a CAT scan I had recently, it was discovered that I have several large uterine fibroids and my uterus is the size of a 5 month pregnancy. Normally the treatments are a. estrogen and progesterone blockers, b. embolization or removal of a fibroid, and c. hysterectomy. For the number and size of the fibroids, embolization or surgical removal of each fibroid is not an option. No way will I take progesterone blockers, and hysterectomy would be my last option.

My bloodwork indicated that I have a 2:10 ratio of estrogen to progesterone (1:10 is ideal), which was AFTER I had been taking upwards of 120 mg of progesterone for a couple of months, and prolactin was on the high end of the “normal” range. For a few weeks, I took 5 drops of 5-adhp (which I recently replaced with 500mg of pregnenolone), and continued the ~120 mg of progesterone (as well as 4 drops of metergoline & 2 of lisuride, which really helped with breast pain, and elevated serotonin while I work on my digestive issues).

Since then, I’ve been experiencing “spontaneous expulsion” of the fibroids. In the studies I’ve read, “spontaneous expulsion” is considered very rare and they don’t know what causes it. It is more common in women who have the embolization procedure, in which they block an artery that feeds the fibroid and causes the tissue to die off. The studies I read mentioned that the tissue of the fibroids sloughs off or may come out in pieces, and that the tissue is necrotic and gangrenous. One of the risks mentioned is sepsis. In one case study of spontaneous expulsion, they put the woman on antibiotics and methylergometrin, which is used as a uterine tonic (but can have serious side effects).

My questions:

• Is the sloughing off/expulsion as described above also an effect of blocking estrogen? I can’t find any literature on it. As I mentioned, they don’t know why some women will spontaneously expel fibroids to begin with.
• I’m concerned about having “necrotic” and “gangrenous” tissue up in there. Another study mentioned that embolization of multiple or large fibroids was not a good idea said that it increases the risk of sepsis (my mom died of sepsis, unrelated to fibroids though). I took a course of Flagyl and it cleared up some of the symptoms of infection. Maybe I should keep some on hand at all times?
• They gave the woman in the study methylergometrin. Is there a safe(r) smooth-muscle/uterine tonic I could check out?
• Anything other helpful info I should know?

FYI if they haven’t shrunk by next summer (1 year) I will have to go for the hysterectomy. My enlarged uterus is causing problems on my other compressed organs (eg. incontinence, etc) and the necrotic tissue thing doesn’t sound very safe long term.

Thanks for any info.

Two things come to mind, one is how are you taking the progesterone? I have found taking it vaginally even when it’s in capsule form to be really effective.
The other is that haidut mentions somewhere on this forum that dhea is protective against sepsis. You might be interested in either cortinon or pansterone for the time being until you get through this issue. Also the bonus is that if you use the suggested dose of either of those it should help increase androgen status, therefore also opposing estrogen ! Good luck !

 

[haidut]

During a CAT scan I had recently, it was discovered that I have several large uterine fibroids and my uterus is the size of a 5 month pregnancy. Normally the treatments are a. estrogen and progesterone blockers, b. embolization or removal of a fibroid, and c. hysterectomy. For the number and size of the fibroids, embolization or surgical removal of each fibroid is not an option. No way will I take progesterone blockers, and hysterectomy would be my last option.

My bloodwork indicated that I have a 2:10 ratio of estrogen to progesterone (1:10 is ideal), which was AFTER I had been taking upwards of 120 mg of progesterone for a couple of months, and prolactin was on the high end of the “normal” range. For a few weeks, I took 5 drops of 5-adhp (which I recently replaced with 500mg of pregnenolone), and continued the ~120 mg of progesterone (as well as 4 drops of metergoline & 2 of lisuride, which really helped with breast pain, and elevated serotonin while I work on my digestive issues).

Since then, I’ve been experiencing “spontaneous expulsion” of the fibroids. In the studies I’ve read, “spontaneous expulsion” is considered very rare and they don’t know what causes it. It is more common in women who have the embolization procedure, in which they block an artery that feeds the fibroid and causes the tissue to die off. The studies I read mentioned that the tissue of the fibroids sloughs off or may come out in pieces, and that the tissue is necrotic and gangrenous. One of the risks mentioned is sepsis. In one case study of spontaneous expulsion, they put the woman on antibiotics and methylergometrin, which is used as a uterine tonic (but can have serious side effects).

My questions:

• Is the sloughing off/expulsion as described above also an effect of blocking estrogen? I can’t find any literature on it. As I mentioned, they don’t know why some women will spontaneously expel fibroids to begin with.
• I’m concerned about having “necrotic” and “gangrenous” tissue up in there. Another study mentioned that embolization of multiple or large fibroids was not a good idea said that it increases the risk of sepsis (my mom died of sepsis, unrelated to fibroids though). I took a course of Flagyl and it cleared up some of the symptoms of infection. Maybe I should keep some on hand at all times?
• They gave the woman in the study methylergometrin. Is there a safe(r) smooth-muscle/uterine tonic I could check out?
• Anything other helpful info I should know?

FYI if they haven’t shrunk by next summer (1 year) I will have to go for the hysterectomy. My enlarged uterus is causing problems on my other compressed organs (eg. incontinence, etc) and the necrotic tissue thing doesn’t sound very safe long term.

Thanks for any info.

Regression of fibroids in a number of organs has been extensively documented in older studies using androgens. Those studies led to the development and approval of the DHT-based steroid Drostanolone for women with not only breast cancer but all kinds of other fibroid issues. Drostanolone retains its FDA approval to this day but most doctors do not know about it. Anyways, the benefit of androgens was proven to be through opposition of estrogens. And yes, both prevention AND reversal of fibroids were seen in those older studies. So, anything that opposes estrogen will likely have beneficial effects including aspirin, vitamin E, pregnenolone, etc. Progesterone is probably safer for women than androgens but sometimes a combination of progesterone + androgen works even better. Lack of DHEA is a big issue in older women and giving them DHEA or testosterone has been shown to help with many fibrotic conditions and of course cancer. You may want to ask your doctor about something like bromocriptine or another anti-serotonin drug like cyproheptadine as those can greatly amplify the anti-estrogen effects of progesterone and have been shown to also benefit fibrotic conditions by blocking 5-HT2B.
LSD-derivatives Like Bromocriptine Can Fully Cure Breast Cancer
Cyproheptadine Is An Estrogen Antagonist, May Treat Breast Cancer
The Serotonin Receptor 5-HT2B Is Required For Cancer; Can Be Blocked

 

[Amazigh]

Thanks for both of those replies. I forgot to mention that I've been taking thyroid for a long time - I take 1/2 tablet of cynoplus at night and the equivalent of 1.5 Cynomel (broken into quarters) per day. I just recently increased my T4 and decreased my T3 (I was taking 1/4 of CynoPlus about 2.5 Cynomel tablets in HALVES) because my T3 came out high on my bloodwork and my T4 was low for the first time. I had been taking high doses of T3 but my symptoms were not quite resolving. I suspect my digestive issues were blocking the transport of usage of T3, for example, just read that endotoxin can block T3 from adhering to the transport proteins. I also suspect that these digestive issues and the endotoxin + serotonin that result were probably having a lot to do with elevated estrogen, so I think I was in a bit of a spiral. I also read somewhere that the fibroids themselves cause elevated estrogen.

Also I was very anemic. Not sure if that factored in, I somehow feel like it did anecdotally. AND also, I was not eating enough protein. I have since made lots of headway on fixing my digestion. The estrogen blocking/progesterone increasing has helped pretty much eliminate my fibrocystic breast issues. My periods are much lighter and shorter. Something is working there.

@Jackrabbit, I had to stop taking most of the Idea Labs supplements because I ended up developing rashes all over my body even from the non-DMSO products (triggered by the DMSO in Magnoil, it cascaded - @haidut FYI), now I just take the ones that only require a few drops here and there. I went back to using Progest-e on my gums. I tried using vaginally a while back, but got a yeast infection afterwards. I think I remember others mentioning that as well. I stopped taking DHEA (5mg, powder) because I didn't want to take any chances of it converting to estrogen. I did try a little bit of some Androsterone I got for my husband a while back, and I felt really good when I took it (like 2 times). Maybe I'll look into taking a little of that.

What you mentioned from the study about the hormonal and mechanical effects of labor (reduced perfusion, uterine contraction, and endometrial sparsenes) on the expulsion make a lot of sense. That ergo derivative I mentioned before, the "uterine tonic" which was given in the other case of spontaneous expulsion, causes uterine contractions. So do orgasms :) That might be the only one I can control.

 

[haidut]

Thanks for both of those replies. I forgot to mention that I've been taking thyroid for a long time - I take 1/2 tablet of cynoplus at night and the equivalent of 1.5 Cynomel (broken into quarters) per day. I just recently increased my T4 and decreased my T3 (I was taking 1/4 of CynoPlus about 2.5 Cynomel tablets in HALVES) because my T3 came out high on my bloodwork and my T4 was low for the first time. I had been taking high doses of T3 but my symptoms were not quite resolving. I suspect my digestive issues were blocking the transport of usage of T3, for example, just read that endotoxin can block T3 from adhering to the transport proteins. I also suspect that these digestive issues and the endotoxin + serotonin that result were probably having a lot to do with elevated estrogen, so I think I was in a bit of a spiral. I also read somewhere that the fibroids themselves cause elevated estrogen.

Also I was very anemic. Not sure if that factored in, I somehow feel like it did anecdotally. AND also, I was not eating enough protein. I have since made lots of headway on fixing my digestion. The estrogen blocking/progesterone increasing has helped pretty much eliminate my fibrocystic breast issues. My periods are much lighter and shorter. Something is working there.

@Jackrabbit, I had to stop taking most of the Idea Labs supplements because I ended up developing rashes all over my body even from the non-DMSO products (triggered by the DMSO in Magnoil, it cascaded - @haidut FYI), now I just take the ones that only require a few drops here and there. I went back to using Progest-e on my gums. I tried using vaginally a while back, but got a yeast infection afterwards. I think I remember others mentioning that as well. I stopped taking DHEA (5mg, powder) because I didn't want to take any chances of it converting to estrogen. I did try a little bit of some Androsterone I got for my husband a while back, and I felt really good when I took it (like 2 times). Maybe I'll look into taking a little of that.

What you mentioned from the study about the hormonal and mechanical effects of labor (reduced perfusion, uterine contraction, and endometrial sparsenes) on the expulsion make a lot of sense. That ergo derivative I mentioned before, the "uterine tonic" which was given in the other case of spontaneous expulsion, causes uterine contractions. So do orgasms :) That might be the only one I can control.

Sorry about this. So, was it Magnoil that caused the rashes or the other products? Or Magnoil exacerbated the rashes but others caused it as well?

 

[Amazigh]

Actually I just realized lisuride, cyproheptadine, and metergoline all have dmso. However it started with Magnoil, I think because the amount is 20 drops in a single application. It had suddenly started to make my forearms burn, then I developed rashes in several places so I stopped it. But taking just a couple of drops of the others I mentioned have been tolerable, maybe since those are small amounts - as long as I use them on my legs. The idealabs progesterone I don't tolerate either because of the larger amounts also, 40 drops.

 

[Amazigh]

Correction: I was right the first time. The Metergoline, Lisuride, Cyproheptadine, and Progestene that I had been using all contain SFA esters and ethanol, NOT DMSO (I got confused when I went to the Idealabs site to triple-check before I responded, but the images you have on the site I guess are old, they have DMSO on the labels - so I thought I had missed it somehow). So yes, somehow the allergic reaction triggered by the DMSO also sensitized me to the others right after.

 

[LUH 3417]

Two things come to mind, one is how are you taking the progesterone? I have found taking it vaginally even when it’s in capsule form to be really effective.
The other is that haidut mentions somewhere on this forum that dhea is protective against sepsis. You might be interested in either cortinon or pansterone for the time being until you get through this issue. Also the bonus is that if you use the suggested dose of either of those it should help increase androgen status, therefore also opposing estrogen ! Good luck !

do you put the progesterone in a gelatin capsule and then put it up your vagina? i find taking it orally really bothers my stomach and i would like to take it vaginally but wondering how you do it.

 

[Jackrabbit]

do you put the progesterone in a gelatin capsule and then put it up your vagina? i find taking it orally really bothers my stomach and i would like to take it vaginally but wondering how you do it.

I actually get capsules as a prescription and I just insert vaginally. I’ve also just kind of shoved my fingers in there with the oil on them.

 

[LUH 3417]

I actually get capsules as a prescription and I just insert vaginally. I’ve also just kind of shoved my fingers in there with the oil on them.

I see ok thank you. Do you know the name of the Rx?

 

[Jackrabbit]

I see ok thank you. Do you know the name of the Rx?

I’ve gotten it from a couple of different types of doctors, one a reproductive health doctor and one a naturopath, it’s a bio identical progesterone, not a progestin, and it’s in 200mg capsules. I believe it’s dissolved in peanut oil which is the main drawback.

 

[Jackrabbit]

It’s just called progesterone, though, on the bottle, no particular name brand

 

[Jackrabbit]

I heard a good tip recently that if you have a prescription for something and you don’t want the excipients they typically use, you can request for it to be made at a compounding pharmacy

 

[theLaw]

Actually I just realized lisuride, cyproheptadine, and metergoline all have dmso. However it started with Magnoil, I think because the amount is 20 drops in a single application. It had suddenly started to make my forearms burn, then I developed rashes in several places so I stopped it. But taking just a couple of drops of the others I mentioned have been tolerable, maybe since those are small amounts - as long as I use them on my legs. The idealabs progesterone I don't tolerate either because of the larger amounts also, 40 drops.

I have a similar issue with Magnoil if I don't spread it over enough skin area.

 

[Amazigh]

do you put the progesterone in a gelatin capsule and then put it up your vagina? i find taking it orally really bothers my stomach and i would like to take it vaginally but wondering how you do it.

That's what I tried, but I got an overgrowth of something within a day of doing that so I never tried it again. I mix it with coconut oil and apply it on my breasts and also take some extra and rub it into my gums.

 

[Amazigh]

I have a similar issue with Magnoil if I don't spread it over enough skin area.

I had to stop putting the other supplements with the SFA esters on my skin as well. I was getting rashes in random places. Not fun. Thing is, I think the DMSO sensitized me to those as well. They never bothered me before.

 

[theLaw]

I had to stop putting the other supplements with the SFA esters on my skin as well. I was getting rashes in random places. Not fun. Thing is, I think the DMSO sensitized me to those as well. They never bothered me before.

I've had some strange reactions to topical sups in the past, but activated charcoal (reducing endotoxin) seems to have resolved these issues, so they no longer happen for me.

 

[LUH 3417]

That's what I tried, but I got an overgrowth of something within a day of doing that so I never tried it again. I mix it with coconut oil and apply it on my breasts and also take some extra and rub it into my gums.

Thanks for sharing will keep that in mind.

 

[Jackrabbit]

A lot of niacinamide (35mg/kg) in a single dose kills off candida. If you have candida in your system it is worth eliminating it. New research shows it actually crosses the blood brain barrier and causing inflammation which eventually leads to Alzheimer’s