Does Ascorbic acid really decrease Ceruloplasmin?

Motif

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Is this a fact?

best vitamin c options?

i doubt that in store bought milk and meat (when not eaten raw) is anywhere enough vitamin c.
 

Sydneygirl

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It decreases vitamin c in the body because ascorbic acid is just the empty shell which needs to take vitamin c from the body to complete itself
 

Sydneygirl

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Anything to back this up?
Listen to Morley Robbins or look into root cause protocol. They recommend STOPing ascorbic acid and including whole food vitamin c…you can find suggested brands in their manual. I use Synergy.
they also recommend stopping iron supplements, vitamin d, calcium and multi vitamins as they all block copper as well
 

GenericName86

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Matt Blackburn has this on his store page (naturally, as he'd like you to purchase his whole food complex vit c ) in regards to Vit C and AA just being the "shell". Just putting this here for people to look at. I'm assuming Matt put this up after he looked into Morley as it goes along with what he talks about afaik.
vitaminc.png
 

Sydneygirl

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T
Matt Blackburn has this on his store page (naturally, as he'd like you to purchase his whole food complex vit c ) in regards to Vit C and AA just being the "shell". Just putting this here for people to look at. I'm assuming Matt put this up after he looked into Morley as it goes along with what he talks about afaik.View attachment 27999thank you ???
 

Astolfo

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Hey motif. Did you ever look into heavy metals? I think they could be the cause of your low ceruloplasmin issue.

IMG_20210909_163343.jpg
 
Last edited:

Ben.

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Matt Blackburn has this on his store page (naturally, as he'd like you to purchase his whole food complex vit c ) in regards to Vit C and AA just being the "shell". Just putting this here for people to look at. I'm assuming Matt put this up after he looked into Morley as it goes along with what he talks about afaik.View attachment 27999


While i am all for whole foods, whole food vitamin c supplements (usually some dried fruit/berry) is not only realy expensive, the whole "its just a shell" claim does still not explain how many people have or had huge benefits from this shell with numerous ailments.

Amazoniac has mentioned when supplementing a certain vitamin, doing so along with food that contains it naturally should help to cover all cofactors.
 

InChristAlone

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This is from the scientist Doris Loh:

"There appears to be a lot of misinformation surrounding ascorbic acid, Vitamin C and its effects on ceruloplasmin and copper utilization.

To truly understand the relationship between these important elements, let’s find out what ceruloplasmin actually does. Some believe Vitamin C destroys ceruloplasmin. Is that true? Ceruloplasmin has a standard redox potential of between +490 mV to +580 mV [1]. That high reduction potential means it will OXIDIZE ascorbate, which has lower reduction potential of only +282 mV. (Remember, electrons flow from lower, negative reduction potential to higher, positive reduction potentials.)

That is correct, ceruloplasmin actually destroys Vitamin C by oxidizing it. This is the reason why using oral contraceptives has negative health effects. The use of oral contraceptives raises serum ceruloplasmin, creating pro-oxidant effects that results in the reduction of not only ascorbic acid, but also the reduction of epinephrine, melatonin, serotonin and other amines [2, 4]. This reduction of important neuronal substrates is the reason why excess ceruloplasmin is linked to neurodegenerative diseases, as well as other neurological disorders including schizophrenia and obsessive compulsive disorders {3. 4, 5]

Is ceruloplasmin bad? Of course not. Afterall, ceruloplasmin has been observed to be responsible for the mobilisation, transport and homeostasis of copper, ferroxidase and amino oxidase; it is also an acute phase protein in the inflammatory response pathway. Ceruloplasmin is found to be deficient in Wilson's disease, an autosomal recessive trait with a defect in copper metabolism. Ceruloplasmin however, catalyses the oxidation of a great variety of both organic and inorganic substances, including amines like p-phenylenediamine, dopamines and serotonin, as well as catechol derivatives, aminophenols and Fe(II).

To truly understand why we see adverse health effects associated with excess ceruloplasmin, we need to take a look at the close cousin of ceruloplasmin, ascorbate oxidase.

Ceruloplasmin is found in all mammals and birds whereas ascorbate oxidase are found in higher plants. They are both blue oxidases that are believed to have evolved from a common ancestral gene. For the longest time, the biological role of ascorbate oxidase is not clear, but it is understood to be responsible for the oxidation of ascorbate [1]. Scientists could not understand why ascorbic acid, being produced by plants for protection, would have the need ascorbate oxidase, which oxidizes ascorbate. In 2013, a study was published explaining that ascorbate oxidase actually has the role of modulating both ascorbate and oxygen content, thereby regulating the redox balance in extracellular matrix in plants, in a fashion not dissimilar to the mechanism of prolyl hydroxylases/ Hypoxia Inducible Factors (HIF) in animals [6].

If that is the case, since animals do not have ascorbate oxidase, then could ceruloplasmin act in the same capacity as ascorbate oxidase? I don’t believe ceruloplasmin’s main function in animals is similar to that of ascorbate oxidase simply because animals and humans have evolved extremely efficient processes in the control of hypoxic conditions. However, ceruloplasmin does behave in a similar manner as ascorbate oxidase in that it oxidizes ascorbate. A study found two copper atoms in ceruloplasmin to be able to oxidize up 560 ascorbate molecules [7]. When cupric oxide (II) oxidizes ascorbate, taking an electron from ascorbate, it becomes reduced and forms cuprous oxide Cu(I).

Is there any benefit in the reduction of cupric oxide Cu (II) to cuprous oxide (CU(I) by ascorbate?

Cupric oxide is considered to be fully oxidized and is stable, while cuprous oxide is in an active state, and most considers it as unstable and dangerous. Now, what you may not know about cuprous oxide will surprise you.

The antioxidant Glutathione, are thiols. Thiols are biomolecules that can be oxidized by copper-catalyzed processes. The ratio between reduced and oxidized glutathione functions as intracellular redox buffer. This redox buffer can modulate the activity of thiol dependent enzymes with cysteine residues that are also sensitive to changes in redox balance. Glutathione is bound tightly to the thiol group of cysteine forming polymers, and this GSH-Cu(I) complex is responsible for the transfer of copper into enzyme active sites [8]. The ratio of cupric and cuprous oxide, therefore has important implications for the optimal functioning of glutathione.

In addition to the reduction of cupric oxide, ascorbate has now been found to be critical in the absorption of copper in our intestines because it is the redox molecule used by the plasma membrane redox enzyme duodenal cytochrome b561 (DCytb) that was discovered only in 2006. All previous studies on ascorbate’s effects on copper utilization need to be re-evaluated as a result of the newly discovered functions observed in Dcytb in copper utilization.


All processes and elements in our bodies are tightly regulated. The reduction and oxidation of copper ions is no exception. The balance between these elements is critical in the maintenance of optimal health. Redox balance is the foundation upon which you build your house of health. Ascorbic acid is a Redox balancer, and this is the reason why high ceruloplasmin levels are associated with neurodegenerative diseases, as well as diabetes.

This study in 2015 [9] found serum ceruloplasmin as a predictor for the progression of diabetic nephropathy. Excess ceruloplasmin will act as pro-oxidant under conditions of severe oxidative stress as ceruloplasmin oxidizes ascorbate, which our body uses to balance Redox.

To find out more about how ascorbic acid, Vitamin C acts as a Redox balancer in our bodies, read this amazing article.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vitamin-c-mitochondria-part-1-redox-5g-world-doris-loh/ "





References:
[1] FEBS Press
[2] http://medind.nic.in/iaf/t04/i1/iaft04i1p102.pdf
[3] Ceruloplasmin in neurodegenerative diseases - PubMed
[4] Comparative Study of Blood Ceruloplasmin in Schizophrenia and Other Disorders
[5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2596773/
[6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3676494/pdf/psb-8-e23213.pdf
[7] http://www.jbc.org/content/239/10/3570.full.pdf
[8] Interaction of copper with cysteine: stability of cuprous complexes and catalytic role of cupric ions in anaerobic thiol oxidation - PubMed
[9] Serum Ceruloplasmin Level as a Predictor for the Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy in Korean Men with Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus
 

InChristAlone

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Matt Blackburn has this on his store page (naturally, as he'd like you to purchase his whole food complex vit c ) in regards to Vit C and AA just being the "shell". Just putting this here for people to look at. I'm assuming Matt put this up after he looked into Morley as it goes along with what he talks about afaik.View attachment 27999
There is no scientific proof of the vitamin C complex. Ascorbic acid is vitamin C. I would never put my faith in a snakeoil salesman.

"Within several weeks Szent-Györgyi had produced three pounds of pure crystalline ascorbic acid, enough to show — when fed to the vitamin C-deficient guinea pigs — that the acid was equivalent to vitamin C." Albert Szent-Gyorgyi Vitamin C - Landmark - American Chemical Society

No where can you find that other quote except on alternative health sites and store pages that are selling extremely highly priced "natural" vitamin C.

That being said I do agree that whole foods have substances with vitamin-like properties that we should keep on consuming. I use 4 grams of ascorbic acid a day for yrs. No gray hair or copper deficiency.
 

Lollipop2

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Amazoniac has mentioned when supplementing a certain vitamin, doing so along with food that contains it naturally should help to cover all cofactors.
This makes good sense to me: creating an “enhanced food” of sorts.
 

Lollipop2

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This is from the scientist Doris Loh:

"There appears to be a lot of misinformation surrounding ascorbic acid, Vitamin C and its effects on ceruloplasmin and copper utilization.

To truly understand the relationship between these important elements, let’s find out what ceruloplasmin actually does. Some believe Vitamin C destroys ceruloplasmin. Is that true? Ceruloplasmin has a standard redox potential of between +490 mV to +580 mV [1]. That high reduction potential means it will OXIDIZE ascorbate, which has lower reduction potential of only +282 mV. (Remember, electrons flow from lower, negative reduction potential to higher, positive reduction potentials.)

That is correct, ceruloplasmin actually destroys Vitamin C by oxidizing it. This is the reason why using oral contraceptives has negative health effects. The use of oral contraceptives raises serum ceruloplasmin, creating pro-oxidant effects that results in the reduction of not only ascorbic acid, but also the reduction of epinephrine, melatonin, serotonin and other amines [2, 4]. This reduction of important neuronal substrates is the reason why excess ceruloplasmin is linked to neurodegenerative diseases, as well as other neurological disorders including schizophrenia and obsessive compulsive disorders {3. 4, 5]

Is ceruloplasmin bad? Of course not. Afterall, ceruloplasmin has been observed to be responsible for the mobilisation, transport and homeostasis of copper, ferroxidase and amino oxidase; it is also an acute phase protein in the inflammatory response pathway. Ceruloplasmin is found to be deficient in Wilson's disease, an autosomal recessive trait with a defect in copper metabolism. Ceruloplasmin however, catalyses the oxidation of a great variety of both organic and inorganic substances, including amines like p-phenylenediamine, dopamines and serotonin, as well as catechol derivatives, aminophenols and Fe(II).

To truly understand why we see adverse health effects associated with excess ceruloplasmin, we need to take a look at the close cousin of ceruloplasmin, ascorbate oxidase.

Ceruloplasmin is found in all mammals and birds whereas ascorbate oxidase are found in higher plants. They are both blue oxidases that are believed to have evolved from a common ancestral gene. For the longest time, the biological role of ascorbate oxidase is not clear, but it is understood to be responsible for the oxidation of ascorbate [1]. Scientists could not understand why ascorbic acid, being produced by plants for protection, would have the need ascorbate oxidase, which oxidizes ascorbate. In 2013, a study was published explaining that ascorbate oxidase actually has the role of modulating both ascorbate and oxygen content, thereby regulating the redox balance in extracellular matrix in plants, in a fashion not dissimilar to the mechanism of prolyl hydroxylases/ Hypoxia Inducible Factors (HIF) in animals [6].

If that is the case, since animals do not have ascorbate oxidase, then could ceruloplasmin act in the same capacity as ascorbate oxidase? I don’t believe ceruloplasmin’s main function in animals is similar to that of ascorbate oxidase simply because animals and humans have evolved extremely efficient processes in the control of hypoxic conditions. However, ceruloplasmin does behave in a similar manner as ascorbate oxidase in that it oxidizes ascorbate. A study found two copper atoms in ceruloplasmin to be able to oxidize up 560 ascorbate molecules [7]. When cupric oxide (II) oxidizes ascorbate, taking an electron from ascorbate, it becomes reduced and forms cuprous oxide Cu(I).

Is there any benefit in the reduction of cupric oxide Cu (II) to cuprous oxide (CU(I) by ascorbate?

Cupric oxide is considered to be fully oxidized and is stable, while cuprous oxide is in an active state, and most considers it as unstable and dangerous. Now, what you may not know about cuprous oxide will surprise you.

The antioxidant Glutathione, are thiols. Thiols are biomolecules that can be oxidized by copper-catalyzed processes. The ratio between reduced and oxidized glutathione functions as intracellular redox buffer. This redox buffer can modulate the activity of thiol dependent enzymes with cysteine residues that are also sensitive to changes in redox balance. Glutathione is bound tightly to the thiol group of cysteine forming polymers, and this GSH-Cu(I) complex is responsible for the transfer of copper into enzyme active sites [8]. The ratio of cupric and cuprous oxide, therefore has important implications for the optimal functioning of glutathione.

In addition to the reduction of cupric oxide, ascorbate has now been found to be critical in the absorption of copper in our intestines because it is the redox molecule used by the plasma membrane redox enzyme duodenal cytochrome b561 (DCytb) that was discovered only in 2006. All previous studies on ascorbate’s effects on copper utilization need to be re-evaluated as a result of the newly discovered functions observed in Dcytb in copper utilization.


All processes and elements in our bodies are tightly regulated. The reduction and oxidation of copper ions is no exception. The balance between these elements is critical in the maintenance of optimal health. Redox balance is the foundation upon which you build your house of health. Ascorbic acid is a Redox balancer, and this is the reason why high ceruloplasmin levels are associated with neurodegenerative diseases, as well as diabetes.

This study in 2015 [9] found serum ceruloplasmin as a predictor for the progression of diabetic nephropathy. Excess ceruloplasmin will act as pro-oxidant under conditions of severe oxidative stress as ceruloplasmin oxidizes ascorbate, which our body uses to balance Redox.

To find out more about how ascorbic acid, Vitamin C acts as a Redox balancer in our bodies, read this amazing article.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vitamin-c-mitochondria-part-1-redox-5g-world-doris-loh/ "





References:
[1] FEBS Press
[2] http://medind.nic.in/iaf/t04/i1/iaft04i1p102.pdf
[3] Ceruloplasmin in neurodegenerative diseases - PubMed
[4] Comparative Study of Blood Ceruloplasmin in Schizophrenia and Other Disorders
[5] High ceruloplasmin levels are associated with obsessive compulsive disorder: a case control study
[6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3676494/pdf/psb-8-e23213.pdf
[7] DEFINE_ME
[8] Interaction of copper with cysteine: stability of cuprous complexes and catalytic role of cupric ions in anaerobic thiol oxidation - PubMed
[9] Serum Ceruloplasmin Level as a Predictor for the Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy in Korean Men with Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus
Great information. Thank you!
 

Ell

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It decreases vitamin c in the body because ascorbic acid is just the empty shell which needs to take vitamin c from the body to complete itself
Where in the galaxy did you ever get that idea from ?
 
OP
M

Motif

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There is no scientific proof of the vitamin C complex. Ascorbic acid is vitamin C. I would never put my faith in a snakeoil salesman.

"Within several weeks Szent-Györgyi had produced three pounds of pure crystalline ascorbic acid, enough to show — when fed to the vitamin C-deficient guinea pigs — that the acid was equivalent to vitamin C." Albert Szent-Gyorgyi Vitamin C - Landmark - American Chemical Society

No where can you find that other quote except on alternative health sites and store pages that are selling extremely highly priced "natural" vitamin C.

That being said I do agree that whole foods have substances with vitamin-like properties that we should keep on consuming. I use 4 grams of ascorbic acid a day for yrs. No gray hair or copper deficiency.
How is ceruloplasmin? Do you know this? Would be really interesting
 

Dr. B

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Matt Blackburn has this on his store page (naturally, as he'd like you to purchase his whole food complex vit c ) in regards to Vit C and AA just being the "shell". Just putting this here for people to look at. I'm assuming Matt put this up after he looked into Morley as it goes along with what he talks about afaik.View attachment 27999
the nutrigold website i think had this same stuff on rutin bioflavonoids etc.

do you think lower doses like, 90mg ascorbic acid a day should be pretty safe? just avoid the larger, 500mg or 1g+ doses of vitamin c?

@Motif there are some options for whole food vitamin c you can also get acerola cherry freeze dried powder or maybe amla berry powder. the smartervitamins and nutrigold brand sell 'whole food vitamin c' which are a mixture of berries like amla and acerola cherry and others, they contain small amounts. nutrigold is like 240mg and the smartvitamins company questions how they have that much whole food C per capsule (maybe capsule is bigger than theirs). smartervitamins is a berry mixture and 90mg vitamin C per pill. these are much more expensive than typical vitamin C but still affordable if youre just using them at the 1 to 2 capsules per day which would be 90mg to 180mg or 240 to 480mg a day... i havent tested them out but wonder if they would work similar to the vitamin C Peat initially tried which came in 50mg pills. maybe that stuff was also something like some freeze dried citrus source which was why it was just 50mg per pill. the 500mg, 1000mg+ capsules were made possible once they started extracting it from corn mold which made it allergenic too
 
OP
M

Motif

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the nutrigold website i think had this same stuff on rutin bioflavonoids etc.

do you think lower doses like, 90mg ascorbic acid a day should be pretty safe? just avoid the larger, 500mg or 1g+ doses of vitamin c?

@Motif there are some options for whole food vitamin c you can also get acerola cherry freeze dried powder or maybe amla berry powder. the smartervitamins and nutrigold brand sell 'whole food vitamin c' which are a mixture of berries like amla and acerola cherry and others, they contain small amounts. nutrigold is like 240mg and the smartvitamins company questions how they have that much whole food C per capsule (maybe capsule is bigger than theirs). smartervitamins is a berry mixture and 90mg vitamin C per pill. these are much more expensive than typical vitamin C but still affordable if youre just using them at the 1 to 2 capsules per day which would be 90mg to 180mg or 240 to 480mg a day... i havent tested them out but wonder if they would work similar to the vitamin C Peat initially tried which came in 50mg pills. maybe that stuff was also something like some freeze dried citrus source which was why it was just 50mg per pill. the 500mg, 1000mg+ capsules were made possible once they started extracting it from corn mold which made it allergenic too
@sugarbabe
What do you think about the allergenic aspect?
 

InChristAlone

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@sugarbabe
What do you think about the allergenic aspect?
Ascorbic acid is not made from mold. It's possible someone is so sensitive they react to tiny amounts of impurities, but I was very sensitive when I started taking it (was living in mold) and only thing I experienced at first was headaches. I only mention it to be transparent because I've had no side effects at all ever since. To get the same effect from natural sources you'd be spending a ton of money and then you'd likely have phenol reactions from the berries. Those reactions suck. Just look up the feingold diet for kids which reduces high phenol foods to cure autistic like behavior.
 

Dr. B

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Ascorbic acid is not made from mold. It's possible someone is so sensitive they react to tiny amounts of impurities, but I was very sensitive when I started taking it (was living in mold) and only thing I experienced at first was headaches. I only mention it to be transparent because I've had no side effects at all ever since. To get the same effect from natural sources you'd be spending a ton of money and then you'd likely have phenol reactions from the berries. Those reactions suck. Just look up the feingold diet for kids which reduces high phenol foods to cure autistic like behavior.
doesnt all ascorbic acid come from mold sourced from corn? aspergillus niger or something? why are high supplemental amounts of vitamin c needed instead of the 300mg+ from diet, and like 100mg from a supplement?
 

InChristAlone

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doesnt all ascorbic acid come from mold sourced from corn? aspergillus niger or something? why are high supplemental amounts of vitamin c needed instead of the 300mg+ from diet, and like 100mg from a supplement?
No that is citric acid. Ascorbic acid is produced from corn sorbitol.

It has been said that early humans lost the ability to produce vitamin C because our diets contained a high amount of it from fruit. Animals who produce their own vitamin C can make up to 10 grams a day. The measly 75 mg RDA is only to prevent scurvy.
 

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