Does Anyone Have References that Validate the Use of Urine pH as a Proxy for Blood/ECF pH?

yerrag

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For a while now, I've been taking urine pH using pH test strips and using the pH readings as basis to determine how close my blood/ecf pH is to optimal ecf pH, which is 7.4.

As used by naturopathic doctors, optimal urine pH is 6.5 -6.8. I think this has been accepted by many in the forum, including myself. But lately, I have wondered whether this has been backed up by studies. Is there a study that has measured actual blood pH and urine pH among a statistically valid number of human subjects to corroborate the use of urine pH as a surrogate marker for blood pH?

The reason I ask is because I have lately found that taking mineral supplements such as magnesium bicarbonate and potassium citrate to achieve optimal pH seem to make me urinate a lot more frequently. I am now beginning to ask why that is happening, and so I'm starting to question my assumption that the use of urine pH as a surrogate marker for blood pH has been validated.

If validation has been done, then I would have to start questioning my practice of taking mineral supplements to influence the acid-base balance in my body.

If the study has been posted in this forum already, would appreciate pointing out to me that post.

Thanks.
 

StephanF

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The blood pH is, as you probably know, tightly controlled between 7.35 and 7.45. Even hyperventilating will raise the pH just a little due to the loss of CO2, which affects the red blood cells' oxygen-CO2 exchange, that's why people pass out: the brain doesn't get enough oxygen!

The idea about keeping your body 'alkaline' is I think misleading. I believe it has more to do with the buffer strength: A buffer will keep its pH level also in a controlled range until too much acid has been added and the buffer becomes depleted, then the pH suddenly drops. By eating a lot of acidifying foods, we may weaken this biological buffer, which may allow cancer to start growing somewhere. Cancer is said to grow in an acid environment - but I am not sure, I think the lower pH is due to the faster metabolism of the cancer, its waist products make the tissue acidic.

The late German Freiherr Manfred von Ardenne created the 'multi-step therapy' (Mehrschritt-Therapie), he would inject glucose solution around the cancer tissue, and this enhanced the metabolism of the cancer, thus the cancer tissue became acidic. This acidification made the cancer more susceptible to heat. He used RF (or microwave?) to induce hyperthermia in the cancer tissue and the cancer cells died.


"For years, attempts had been made to inhibit the growth of cancer by stopping glycolysis. Ardenne now proposed exactly the opposite. By increasing glycolysis, targeted acidification of the cancerous tissue should be achieved, making it particularly susceptible to an increase in temperature. The selective therapeutic attack on the cancerous tissue is based on the simultaneous realization of an "induced hyperglycemia" leading to acidification and the associated increased sensitivity of the cancerous tissue to an increased body temperature. This is used therapeutically through "extreme whole-body hyperthermia". Acidification is associated, although not in all cases, with a reduction in blood circulation, which, based on the principle of feedback, intensifies the primary damage process of cancer cells."

Ardenne was trying to swim against the stream of orthodox medicine, which mostly rejected his ideas. Dr. Royal Raymond Rife is a similar but even more tragic story...
 
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The blood pH is, as you probably know, tightly controlled between 7.35 and 7.45. Even hyperventilating will raise the pH just a little due to the loss of CO2, which affects the red blood cells' oxygen-CO2 exchange, that's why people pass out: the brain doesn't get enough oxygen!

The idea about keeping your body 'alkaline' is I think misleading. I believe it has more to do with the buffer strength: A buffer will keep its pH level also in a controlled range until too much acid has been added and the buffer becomes depleted, then the pH suddenly drops. By eating a lot of acidifying foods, we may weaken this biological buffer, which may allow cancer to start growing somewhere. Cancer is said to grow in an acid environment - but I am not sure, I think the lower pH is due to the faster metabolism of the cancer, its waist products make the tissue acidic.

The late German Freiherr Manfred von Ardenne created the 'multi-step therapy' (Mehrschritt-Therapie), he would inject glucose solution around the cancer tissue, and this enhanced the metabolism of the cancer, thus the cancer tissue became acidic. This acidification made the cancer more susceptible to heat. He used RF (or microwave?) to induce hyperthermia in the cancer tissue and the cancer cells died.


"For years, attempts had been made to inhibit the growth of cancer by stopping glycolysis. Ardenne now proposed exactly the opposite. By increasing glycolysis, targeted acidification of the cancerous tissue should be achieved, making it particularly susceptible to an increase in temperature. The selective therapeutic attack on the cancerous tissue is based on the simultaneous realization of an "induced hyperglycemia" leading to acidification and the associated increased sensitivity of the cancerous tissue to an increased body temperature. This is used therapeutically through "extreme whole-body hyperthermia". Acidification is associated, although not in all cases, with a reduction in blood circulation, which, based on the principle of feedback, intensifies the primary damage process of cancer cells."

Ardenne was trying to swim against the stream of orthodox medicine, which mostly rejected his ideas. Dr. Royal Raymond Rife is a similar but even more tragic story...
Great post. thank you
 
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yerrag

yerrag

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The idea about keeping your body 'alkaline' is I think misleading. I believe it has more to do with the buffer strength: A buffer will keep its pH level also in a controlled range until too much acid has been added and the buffer becomes depleted, then the pH suddenly drops.
Agree. It is just like with water devices that's being sold as alkaline water. They have the alkaline pH, but they have no buffer. So a little acid will cause that high pH to instantly lower. They are expensive too. It's better to add a little baking soda, which is cheap, and it has more buffer capacity than the commercial alkaline water. But still, I have some misgivings about taking a lot of bicarbonates. Just a little would be fine though.

I can't prove this, but I feel that too much bicarbonates may just give the appearance of having optimal urine pH. But it may not be helpful if it interferes with the body's signalling mechanisms. I've read in passing about acidity signalling inflammatory cytokines as needed to correct some issues, as part of our immune system's way of fixing us. I now wonder if it helps my body if I interfere with this process by countering the acidity with bicarbonates that I intake in significant amounts. I've actually stopped the practice now and am observing for effects.

Maybe the excessive urination could be the body's way of restoring the acidity it intended to have, and that the urine coming out is filled with bicarbonates? I wonder...

By eating a lot of acidifying foods, we may weaken this biological buffer, which may allow cancer to start growing somewhere. Cancer is said to grow in an acid environment - but I am not sure, I think the lower pH is due to the faster metabolism of the cancer, its waist products make the tissue acidic.
I wonder this too. Seems like the acidity has a use. When there is infection, higher acidity is a result of trying to resolve that infection, and the body, thru the kidneys, regulates it so the right pH is produced for the condition it is dealing with. If there is no infection (or toxin or antigen to deal with), the body restores the pH to a more alkaline one. If there is good sugar metabolism, and CO2 is produced instead of lactic acid, and there is just enough fatty acid metabolism to produce minimal keto acids, then the pH would be where it is optimal.

But having enough potassium around would ensure that the kidneys and liver don't have to produce ammonium in order to effect the excretion of acids through urination.

The late German Freiherr Manfred von Ardenne created the 'multi-step therapy' (Mehrschritt-Therapie), he would inject glucose solution around the cancer tissue, and this enhanced the metabolism of the cancer, thus the cancer tissue became acidic. This acidification made the cancer more susceptible to heat. He used RF (or microwave?) to induce hyperthermia in the cancer tissue and the cancer cells died.

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"For years, attempts had been made to inhibit the growth of cancer by stopping glycolysis. Ardenne now proposed exactly the opposite. By increasing glycolysis, targeted acidification of the cancerous tissue should be achieved, making it particularly susceptible to an increase in temperature. The selective therapeutic attack on the cancerous tissue is based on the simultaneous realization of an "induced hyperglycemia" leading to acidification and the associated increased sensitivity of the cancerous tissue to an increased body temperature. This is used therapeutically through "extreme whole-body hyperthermia". Acidification is associated, although not in all cases, with a reduction in blood circulation, which, based on the principle of feedback, intensifies the primary damage process of cancer cells."

Ardenne was trying to swim against the stream of orthodox medicine, which mostly rejected his ideas. Dr. Royal Raymond Rife is a similar but even more tragic story...
Even though old, this idea is novel because it is using acidity against the pathogenic organism. It is counter-intuitive but this is a fresh kind of thinking.

However, I would still rather not have this kind of intervention and prefer to have us support the body with its healing.
 
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yerrag

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Proxy= surrogate marker
 

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yerrag

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No sir, sorry I do not. My limited understanding of pH is based on an allopathic medical perspective unfortunately.
Thanks Blossom!
 

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@Jennifer @tara @Tarmander @Blossom @Amazoniac @Wilfrid @Mito @TreasureVibe @RealNeat Do you have any studies that support naturopaths' use of urine pH as a proxy for ecf pH?
Sorry, no studies that I know of, but Ray might? Your experiment with using mineral supplements to control your pH/body chemistry is similar to the RBTI protocol—maybe looking into it would turn up something useful for you? The only thing I recall Dr. Morse ever mentioning in regards to blood pH is that the body keeps a tight regulation on it, like Stephan wrote.
 
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yerrag

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Nope

Always thought it was quasi helpful at best
Sorry, no studies that I know of, but Ray might? Your experiment with using mineral supplements to control your pH/body chemistry is similar to the RBTI protocol—maybe looking into it would turn up something useful for you? The only thing I recall Dr. Morse ever mentioning in regards to blood pH is that the body keeps a tight regulation on it, like Stephan wrote.
Thanks guys. I guess the idea came from the practice of a French doctor LC Vincent, who developed the principles of Biological Terrain Analysis early in the last century. It has since become adopted by naturopathic doctors, especially since there are test machines that can be used to test blood, saliva, and urine automatically that makes it very convenient for them to provide the patients with an assessment of their biological terrain, as a measure of health.

Perhaps there are studies in French that never got translated into the English language. @burtlancast Would you know?

Thanks. I've downloaded the PDF and I have to sit down and try to read it.
 

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Acidifying the body protects against cancer, contrary to common claims.

This is what happens when people fast (many religions) and french doctor Andre Gernez proposed a cancer prevention therapy based on first acidifying the body through a 2 weeks fast then administering a drug that would synchronize the division of rogue cancer cells then immediately administer a mild cellular poison inoffensive for normal cells but deadly to the few immature cancer cells developing constantly.

The idea was to target the immature and fragile cancer cells while it was stressed by the acidity by bringing them into forced division all at the same time. Cancer cells are the most fragile at the time of their division.

The French government secretly tested his theory on rats and got 93% cancer prevention.

They refused to release the results.
 
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yerrag

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Acidifying the body protects against cancer, contrary to common claims.

This is what happens when people fast (many religions) and french doctor Andre Gernez proposed a cancer prevention therapy based on first acidifying the body through a 2 weeks fast then administering a drug that would synchronize the division of rogue cancer cells then immediately administer a mild cellular poison inoffensive for normal cells but deadly to the few immature cancer cells developing constantly.

The idea was to target the immature and fragile cancer cells while it was stressed by the acidity by bringing them into forced division all at the same time. Cancer cells are the most fragile at the time of their division.

The French government secretly tested his theory on rats and got 93% cancer prevention.

They refused to release the results.
The more I hang out in this forum, the more I get to think like you Burt! Nothing is as it appears, and I find myself having sometimes to take an about face on what I've known and done and it has paid off.
 
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yerrag

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This is a very short video that talks about the breathing rate to help determine telling whether one has acidosis or alkalosis:



I haven't used this before but it makes perfect sense. The problem is I have a hard time measuring my breathing rate. The moment I start to count, the more I end up not breathing naturally when I'm not observing my breathing. Someone who knows should be observing me without me being aware of it to get an accurate result, it seems.
 
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yerrag

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I haven't read this yet, but here is a take from a blog on the website of Biomedx regarding pH:

 
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yerrag

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I haven't read this yet, but here is a take from a blog on the website of Biomedx regarding pH:

This is a good read. I haven't seen urine pH and saliva pH being used this way. But I like how the writer explains it. It is a little more complicated than my understanding on the use of urine pH. What shakes me off my foundation is that he states that having an acidic urine pH is not necessarily bad, and he puts this in context, and it makes sense to me.

If what is written here is true, then I should admit that I have been doing it all wrong. I've been taking mineral supplements of magnesium, calcium, and potassium in order to get to my understood optimal urine pH of 6.5-6.8, and had been congratulating myself for a thumbs-up good job for being able to stay at that level all throughout the day. At the same time, I failed to see that I had been urinating a lot, and because of that, I may be losing a lot of potassium and thiamine. Hell, what's the use of juicing so much to get potassium when all along I'm pissing it away daily. SMH
 

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If what is written here is true, then I should admit that I have been doing it all wrong. I've been taking mineral supplements of magnesium, calcium, and potassium in order to get to my understood optimal urine pH of 6.5-6.8, and had been congratulating myself for a thumbs-up good job for being able to stay at that level all throughout the day. At the same time, I failed to see that I had been urinating a lot, and because of that, I may be losing a lot of potassium and thiamine. Hell, what's the use of juicing so much to get potassium when all along I'm pissing it away daily. SMH
Do you feel better having kept your urine pH in the “optimal” range, despite peeing more?
 
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yerrag

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Do you feel better having kept your urine pH in the “optimal” range, despite peeing more?
I actually had been frustrated at it because I couldn't get restful sleep when I had to wake up so often at night to pee.

Yesterday, I tested my blood sugar control with a 5hr OGTT and realize it has been the worst it's ever been.

I think my wrong understanding of optimality with regard to urine pH has contributed to that. This is the danger of getting healthy (or trying to) with having wrong ideas and thinking they're the right ideas. But snapping out of it is something anybody should be thankful for, and the past is the past and one learns from it.
 

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Do you have any studies that support naturopaths' use of urine pH as a proxy for ecf pH?
No, but it gives clues on what's in excess and what the body is trying to do (provided that kidney function is normal), which is why it tends to reflect recent interventions. But chronic issues usually lead to compensation and it can be tricky to interpret.

- Urinary ammonia content as a determinant of urinary pH during chronic metabolic acidosis

- Low urine pH affects the development of metabolic syndrome, associative with the increase of dyslipidemia and dysglycemia: Nationwide cross-sectional study (KNHANES 2013-2015) and a single-center retrospective cohort study
- Urine alkalization facilitates uric acid excretion

There is such trend, but I'm not aware of it being used other than as a complementary test and focusing on its composition beyond hydrogen ions to find out whether the cause of metabolic acidosis is renal or gastrointestinal. In this case, the expected response when kidneys are working right is to have chloride in surplus of potassium and sodium, with the likely responsible for their difference being ammonium. However, if chloride isn't being dumped as expected (represented by potassium and sodium in surplus), it indicates a kidney issue.

- The urinary anion gap in normal anion gap metabolic acidosis | Deranged Physiology
 

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