Does a lot of copper increase the need of vitamin C?

Motif

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Every few months I got wounds on my fingers that didn’t heal. And it’s always exactly the same spots.

i figured out that tangerines really help when I had them and they disappeared. It always worked and i thought probably it’s a vitamin C thing.

Now they are back not as bad, but still there.

i Wonder if my copper supplementation has something to do with this? I try to get a lot of copper now to get my levels up.

I also take vitamin A right now and just about 5 mg zinc. B complex and sometimes even camu camu.
But somehow I think it’s the copper.

could copper increase needs for vitamin C?

Edit: I might have to introduce tangerines again.

Edit 2: if I need more zinc and vitamin c when I get lots of copper - how much should I get extra on days I eat liver ?
 
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Motif

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@redsun do you know this maybe? Or does it increase the need for zinc ?


Btw would you say 1 mg of copper and 13 mg of zinc are enough for a 6‘1 guy / 73 kg?
 

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Yes please get more vitamin C with what you are doing.
 
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Motif

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Yes please get more vitamin C with what you are doing.
Thanks! Can you tell me a little more about that?

how much more vitamin c and zinc do I need when I get (much) more copper ?

anything else I need to take care of?
 
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Motif

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And does this mean that I have to get more zinc on days I eat liver ? And vitamin c? How much approximately?

@Hans maybe you know this?
 
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Dr. B

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And does this mean that I have to get more zinc on days I eat liver ? And vitamin c? How much approximately?

@Hans maybe you know this?
i would not supplement the copper at all, i actually had a small mole start to form on my toe when i was using copper supplements (i was using zinc and i think vitamin C supplements too). it was very small and went away within a month of dropping copper supps. i would just eat the liver, even ancestrals liver product if you really need it. just use organic OJ for the vitamin c. and maybe ZMA just one capsule 3x a week... nutrabios brand is good with no excipients. the zinc will probably cause an issue too. 30mg a week woudl provide around 4mg a day which is good enough the rest ideally should be from dairy/milk and the small amounts in organ meats
 
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Motif

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i would not supplement the copper at all, i actually had a small mole start to form on my toe when i was using copper supplements (i was using zinc and i think vitamin C supplements too). it was very small and went away within a month of dropping copper supps. i would just eat the liver, even ancestrals liver product if you really need it. just use organic OJ for the vitamin c. and maybe ZMA just one capsule 3x a week... nutrabios brand is good with no excipients. the zinc will probably cause an issue too. 30mg a week woudl provide around 4mg a day which is good enough the rest ideally should be from dairy/milk and the small amounts in organ meats
Thanks! But did you have copper or any other deficiency ?
 

Dr. B

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Thanks! But did you have copper or any other deficiency ?
not sure, i added it in because i seemed to have developed fatigue and other symptoms from long term usage of zinc and vitamin C supplementation. also wasnt drinking tap water for a while, and didnt really have any copper dietary sources.
 
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Motif

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not sure, i added it in because i seemed to have developed fatigue and other symptoms from long term usage of zinc and vitamin C supplementation. also wasnt drinking tap water for a while, and didnt really have any copper dietary sources.
I see! And now do you get copper from foods? What copper sources?
 

Dr. B

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I see! And now do you get copper from foods? What copper sources?

i havent been getting much currently, but im mostly drinking milk, OJ, coconut water, and some dates, raw honey, sometimes dried figs. however i have previously used and plan to add in ancestral supplements products again. when i was using those I would be able to easily get 1oz liver a day if not more. however when I do add them in ill be using them every other day, but that would still be providing 3mg+ copper 4x a week, which is a good amount especially if you arent supplementing zinc/iron or other minerals.
i try to use ZMA 3x a week as well just for a bit of extra zinc and magnesium and some b6 which seems tough to find from foods. the whole milk provides a good amount as well. i think OJ and milk have some copper btw... think milk is 100mcg per cup so with a half gallon that would be 0.8mg. OJ may have like 0.1mg per cup too.
that would mean milk has copper:zinc in about a 1:10 ratio which some claim is ideal. liver has them in more like a 3:2 ratio of copper:zinc but it has some iron, as well as lots of vitamin A and maybe other things that counteract the larger copper amount.
I know Ray said he doesnt like dessicated liver supplements due to some of the aminos and nutrients being oxidized but hes also stated that cooking milk and other foods oxidizes the nutrients. so i think ancestrals products being freeze dried should be fine. they are freeze dried in a raw state, and according to some that should preserve more nutrients compared to cooking.
the ancestrals product is from new zealand and grass fed so it would be hard to get that in a raw state otherwise. it would also be more time consuming cooking and weighing out just an ounce of liver a day
 
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Motif

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i havent been getting much currently, but im mostly drinking milk, OJ, coconut water, and some dates, raw honey, sometimes dried figs. however i have previously used and plan to add in ancestral supplements products again. when i was using those I would be able to easily get 1oz liver a day if not more. however when I do add them in ill be using them every other day, but that would still be providing 3mg+ copper 4x a week, which is a good amount especially if you arent supplementing zinc/iron or other minerals.
i try to use ZMA 3x a week as well just for a bit of extra zinc and magnesium and some b6 which seems tough to find from foods. the whole milk provides a good amount as well. i think OJ and milk have some copper btw... think milk is 100mcg per cup so with a half gallon that would be 0.8mg. OJ may have like 0.1mg per cup too.
that would mean milk has copper:zinc in about a 1:10 ratio which some claim is ideal. liver has them in more like a 3:2 ratio of copper:zinc but it has some iron, as well as lots of vitamin A and maybe other things that counteract the larger copper amount.
I know Ray said he doesnt like dessicated liver supplements due to some of the aminos and nutrients being oxidized but hes also stated that cooking milk and other foods oxidizes the nutrients. so i think ancestrals products being freeze dried should be fine. they are freeze dried in a raw state, and according to some that should preserve more nutrients compared to cooking.
the ancestrals product is from new zealand and grass fed so it would be hard to get that in a raw state otherwise. it would also be more time consuming cooking and weighing out just an ounce of liver a day
Sounds good!
 

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not sure, i added it in because i seemed to have developed fatigue and other symptoms from long term usage of zinc and vitamin C supplementation. also wasnt drinking tap water for a while, and didnt really have any copper dietary sources.
What dose of zinc and vitamin C and for how long caused you issues if I may ask?
 

Dr. B

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What dose of zinc and vitamin C and for how long caused you issues if I may ask?
So in around 2015 or 2016 i started only drinking bottled water or brita filtered water. I believe many bottled waters are reverse osmosis filtered and the brita I believe does filter out copper from the water but leaves fluoride in?

I believe it was around mid 2017 i started using zma, which was 10mg zinc, 3.5mg b6, 150mg magnesium per capsule. I used one capsule daily but i think I eventually used 2 daily and even 3 daily. 3 daily would start causing facial twitches/spasms sometimes and even muscular spasms if i remember right. Probably the excessive supplemental aspartate I believed and Ray also said it would likely be the aspartate. But the glycinate form caused insomnia for me and was also harder ro digest somehow than aspartate.

That zinc was in addition to a multivitamin I had been using which had 18mg iron ferrous fumarate form and 11mg or 15mg zinc which I believe was all zinc oxide. I had been using that multi alongside 1000mg or 1500mg vitamin c daily for years, when I added in the zma. The zma for the most part was limited to one capsule daily, so it was basically 1000mg - 1500mg vitamin C, 10mg zinc aspartate and 11mg zinc oxide daily. I wasn’t really eating copper like liver, my diet was dairy, yogurt, ground beef or chicken basically. The multi did have like 0.9mg copper. The supplement had iron, the meats had iron so most likely it was a copper deficiency since vitamin C also increases iron absorption i believe.
 

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So in around 2015 or 2016 i started only drinking bottled water or brita filtered water. I believe many bottled waters are reverse osmosis filtered and the brita I believe does filter out copper from the water but leaves fluoride in?

I believe it was around mid 2017 i started using zma, which was 10mg zinc, 3.5mg b6, 150mg magnesium per capsule. I used one capsule daily but i think I eventually used 2 daily and even 3 daily. 3 daily would start causing facial twitches/spasms sometimes and even muscular spasms if i remember right. Probably the excessive supplemental aspartate I believed and Ray also said it would likely be the aspartate. But the glycinate form caused insomnia for me and was also harder ro digest somehow than aspartate.

That zinc was in addition to a multivitamin I had been using which had 18mg iron ferrous fumarate form and 11mg or 15mg zinc which I believe was all zinc oxide. I had been using that multi alongside 1000mg or 1500mg vitamin c daily for years, when I added in the zma. The zma for the most part was limited to one capsule daily, so it was basically 1000mg - 1500mg vitamin C, 10mg zinc aspartate and 11mg zinc oxide daily. I wasn’t really eating copper like liver, my diet was dairy, yogurt, ground beef or chicken basically. The multi did have like 0.9mg copper. The supplement had iron, the meats had iron so most likely it was a copper deficiency since vitamin C also increases iron absorption i believe.
Thank you for the response and detail! I am taking about 10mg of zinc daily to fix a deficiency and 400mg of vitamin C on most days. I just wanted to make sure I wouldn’t cause any adverse issues as I screwed myself up when I overdid vitamin A, so being extra cautious now.

I tried for 6 months to improve my zinc status by eating zinc rich foods (oysters/beef), but my body hasn’t been making stomach acid so it didn’t quite work. Within 3 days of starting the zinc supplement I started making more stomach acid and my sleep improved. I figure though at some point I’ll need to stop the zinc once my body becomes replete.

I’m trying to eat copper rich foods for now to balance the zinc and vitamin C. Although I did read that copper requires stomach acid to be obtained from foods. Going to retest my zinc/copper levels to see where things are after this month of zinc supplementation, as my copper level was right on the cusp of deficiency when I last tested. I’m glad you’ve made me aware of the possible symptoms of inadequate copper.

Out of curiosity if you don’t mind, how did you feel before you added the zma and were just on the multi and vitamin C?
 
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Dr. B

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Thank you for the response and detail! I am taking about 10mg of zinc daily to fix a deficiency and 400mg of vitamin C on most days. I just wanted to make sure I wouldn’t cause any adverse issues as I screwed myself up when I overdid vitamin A, so being extra cautious now.

I tried for 6 months to improve my zinc status by eating zinc rich foods (oysters/beef), but my body hasn’t been making stomach acid so it didn’t quite work. Within 3 days of starting the zinc supplement I started making more stomach acid and my sleep improved. I figure though at some point I’ll need to stop the zinc once my body becomes replete.

I’m trying to eat copper rich foods for now to balance the zinc and vitamin C. Although I did read that copper requires stomach acid to be obtained from foods. Going to retest my zinc/copper levels to see where things are after this month of zinc supplementation, as my copper level was right on the cusp of deficiency when I last tested. I’m glad you’ve made me aware of the possible symptoms of inadequate copper.

Out of curiosity if you don’t mind, how did you feel before you added the zma and were just on the multi and vitamin C?

Felt normal on those but i think they actually kept my metabolism lower? Due to the iron and other potentially toxic things in the multivitamin. It had silica, a minor amount 10mcg tin as well and 75mcg vanadium i think.
The zma seemed to overall improve metabolism and other factors it seemed to improve recovery in the gym and help with lifting performance recovery. Helped with sleep and relaxation. Seemed to cause fat loss even without changing diet or exercise levels, so a boost in calories burned basically. It also seems to improve skin and any acne on the body.

An odd thing on vitamin C, years ago when i used it, it seemed to improve and help resolve acne and also lighten the skin? But if i use any vitamin C nowadays, including the high quality Quali C patented form, it shrinks and dries out the eyes, it causes stomach issues and seems to slow digestion, and actually causes acne!
So im not sure whats going on if vitamin C is just made worse nowadays or i just didnt notice it before because i was using it so long and metabolism was higher so i tolerated it better.

But vitamin C, even the famous Quali C, definitely dries up and shrinks my eyes, and also worsens digestion and increases the tendency towards constipation. So I dont use it. I did start zma again recently, 10mg zinc 150mg magnesium 3.5mg b6 daily and that seems to help as always.


I am eating vitamin fortified starches more often these days as I found that crumbl cookies restaurant earlier this year… most their cookies actually use decent ingredients like butter and sugar… usually no vegetable oils. But sometimes there are food colors. Some flavors can use nut butters which you have to be wary of. Anyway the cookies use fortified flour which has iron added… so i have started using zma again. I think at 10mg a day, it should be safe enough, and help to nullify the effects of the added iron in the cookies, and hopefully doesnt drop copper levels too much. Im not using vitamin C or even any other vitamin supplements besides 1000iu D3 daily. I am thinking of adding in some niacinamide though.

Also vitamin A seems to cause acne, and worsen digestion just like vitamin C. In both cases its only the supplements that do this, not the food sources of those things. It also has nothing to do with the cellulose capsule as I can tolerate zma fine in a cellulose capsule yet vitamin A or C will cause noticeable effects like worsened digestion and acne. Vitamin A also seems to actually increase oiliness on the skin and hair! Which i don’t understand as I thought it has a drying effect on the skin?
 

pondering

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Felt normal on those but i think they actually kept my metabolism lower? Due to the iron and other potentially toxic things in the multivitamin. It had silica, a minor amount 10mcg tin as well and 75mcg vanadium i think.
The zma seemed to overall improve metabolism and other factors it seemed to improve recovery in the gym and help with lifting performance recovery. Helped with sleep and relaxation. Seemed to cause fat loss even without changing diet or exercise levels, so a boost in calories burned basically. It also seems to improve skin and any acne on the body.

An odd thing on vitamin C, years ago when i used it, it seemed to improve and help resolve acne and also lighten the skin? But if i use any vitamin C nowadays, including the high quality Quali C patented form, it shrinks and dries out the eyes, it causes stomach issues and seems to slow digestion, and actually causes acne!
So im not sure whats going on if vitamin C is just made worse nowadays or i just didnt notice it before because i was using it so long and metabolism was higher so i tolerated it better.

But vitamin C, even the famous Quali C, definitely dries up and shrinks my eyes, and also worsens digestion and increases the tendency towards constipation. So I dont use it. I did start zma again recently, 10mg zinc 150mg magnesium 3.5mg b6 daily and that seems to help as always.


I am eating vitamin fortified starches more often these days as I found that crumbl cookies restaurant earlier this year… most their cookies actually use decent ingredients like butter and sugar… usually no vegetable oils. But sometimes there are food colors. Some flavors can use nut butters which you have to be wary of. Anyway the cookies use fortified flour which has iron added… so i have started using zma again. I think at 10mg a day, it should be safe enough, and help to nullify the effects of the added iron in the cookies, and hopefully doesnt drop copper levels too much. Im not using vitamin C or even any other vitamin supplements besides 1000iu D3 daily. I am thinking of adding in some niacinamide though.

Also vitamin A seems to cause acne, and worsen digestion just like vitamin C. In both cases its only the supplements that do this, not the food sources of those things. It also has nothing to do with the cellulose capsule as I can tolerate zma fine in a cellulose capsule yet vitamin A or C will cause noticeable effects like worsened digestion and acne. Vitamin A also seems to actually increase oiliness on the skin and hair! Which i don’t understand as I thought it has a drying effect on the skin?
I think vitamin C typically causes looser stools when you reach bowel tolerance, so interesting that you now get constipation from it. Not too familiar with Quali C and wonder if it has anything else in it that may be causing the drying out/eye shrinking & acne? Esp if I have a suboptimal vitamin C level, then I’ve noticed vitamin C will give my face a nice glow.

Taking high dose vitamin A along with vitamin D tanked my digestion and worsened blood sugar issues for me. My body stopped making stomach acid altogether after that. Looking back, I think it depleted my zinc stores, (which were likely already suboptimal) & filled up my liver making glycogen storage less possible.
 

Dr. B

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I think vitamin C typically causes looser stools when you reach bowel tolerance, so interesting that you now get constipation from it. Not too familiar with Quali C and wonder if it has anything else in it that may be causing the drying out/eye shrinking & acne? Esp if I have a suboptimal vitamin C level, then I’ve noticed vitamin C will give my face a nice glow.

Taking high dose vitamin A along with vitamin D tanked my digestion and worsened blood sugar issues for me. My body stopped making stomach acid altogether after that. Looking back, I think it depleted my zinc stores, (which were likely already suboptimal) & filled up my liver making glycogen storage less possible.

I readded D3 at 1000IU daily. I think ill stick to this as its a low dose and i dont get much sunlight, not sure if it is really needed or beneficial either. IMO it could ugly your face and features over time as its essentially damaging the skin with exposure… just compare people who covered up their skin compared to nudist cultures who exposed their skin to the sun often…

I dont know if anyone really cares so i dont know if i should bother looking up the website again. But i found a skin care related website that mentioned that vitamin A supposedly has an acne causing effect temporarily because of how it increases skin cell turnover. This website was implying that anything that increases skin cell turnover will cause an increase in acne at least temporarily. So that explains the bad effects i got from vitamin A. Im not sure exactly temporary those effects are meant to be though… it also caused a hair shedding effect which i dont know if that’s temporary either

I do know that skin glow effect from vitamin C yoi talk about and i do remember how I got that when I started vitamin C in highschool. I actually got even more of a glow when i bumped up to 3000 mg daily vitamin C, but I started getting bad kidney stone symptom’s like painful urination so i had to stop that and stick to 2000mg daily maximum. I maintained that for years.

Quali C is made in Scotland, supposedly the purest vitamin C available and the highest quality. I think the reason vitamin C causes so many issues for me now is because I havent drank tap water in about 4 years other than soda once in a while. But even sodas many times use filtered water and i think even mcdonalds uses filtered water so its not the same as tap water. Even prior to these 4 years, I had been using brita filtered tap water for probably 3 years, which I believe filters out both the chlorine and the copper from tap water. Chlorine and copper are both heavily prevalent in most tap water, and vitamin C actually counteracts those things. I believe I actually had to lower the vitamin C dosage further when i used brita filtered water after a while, and had to also be mindful of zinc from supplements since thats another stressor that acts against copper. Actually iron and manganese and even molybdenum are all also copper antagonists I believe. So the more of those things you add via supplements the more an issue with copper can be created.

I dont think vitamin C is needed if youre doing meat or dairy. And if anything just use orange juice for it. I do think those whole food vitamin C products like by nutrigold and another brand are superior but at the same time the dosage is only 240mg so it could just be the lower dosage thats safer. But on paper those things like acerola cherry extract and I believe a certain berry extract, those yellow indian/asian berries nutrigold uses for their whole food vitamin C. Those whole food vitamin Cs have got to be safer than fungus or whatever they use as a starter for modern vitamin C products.


I use 10mg zinc for its ammonia reducing effects, so I definitely cant afford to supplement vitamim C. I also dont eat much meat nowadays, doing a skyr and milk diet basically, with like a pound ground beef eaten once a week. Plus some crumbl cookies once a week which have added iron in them.
I do eat a cereal with cocoa powder so that provides copper and iron… it also has brown rice which has manganese. But i think the zinc is more tolerable because i dont think milk has that much, and the cereal provides copper and iron. So i can basically get away with that minor zinc dosage.
 

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I readded D3 at 1000IU daily. I think ill stick to this as its a low dose and i dont get much sunlight, not sure if it is really needed or beneficial either. IMO it could ugly your face and features over time as its essentially damaging the skin with exposure… just compare people who covered up their skin compared to nudist cultures who exposed their skin to the sun often…
Perhaps a balanced approach is the way to go? Makes sense to me that some sunlight is beneficial, but too much (like anything else) could be detrimental depending on skin tone. I hear you that excess sun exposure worsens skin and do know a roofer who has a leathery appearance.

I dont know if anyone really cares so i dont know if i should bother looking up the website again. But i found a skin care related website that mentioned that vitamin A supposedly has an acne causing effect temporarily because of how it increases skin cell turnover. This website was implying that anything that increases skin cell turnover will cause an increase in acne at least temporarily. So that explains the bad effects i got from vitamin A. Im not sure exactly temporary those effects are meant to be though… it also caused a hair shedding effect which i dont know if that’s temporary either
Excess vitamin A is known to cause hair shedding. Were you taking a lot? I've gotten hair shedding when I increased vitamin A from diet. It went away though when I reduced my vitamin A intake.

I do know that skin glow effect from vitamin C yoi talk about and i do remember how I got that when I started vitamin C in highschool. I actually got even more of a glow when i bumped up to 3000 mg daily vitamin C, but I started getting bad kidney stone symptom’s like painful urination so i had to stop that and stick to 2000mg daily maximum. I maintained that for years.
User md_a mentioned how high dose vitamin c can cause calcium oxalates on the infamous vitamin a thread, so maybe that became part of the issue for you? Especially since you had kidney stones at 3000 mg of vitamin c. I have noticed that when I eat high oxalate foods, I get white crystal/powdery stuff coming out of my eyes. So maybe why you get the eye shrinking you mentioned above? I've read elsewhere that calcium oxalates are a by product of vitamin c metabolism. The info on oxalates in the post is interesting. Chris Masterjohn also mentioned that B6 is needed to reduce oxalates, as is potassium. For myself, I've noticed that increasing apple cider vinegar helps with the oxalate foods, but I'm not sure if that applies to vitamin c which is already acidic in theory. (I have to take ACV anyway since my body doesn't make enough stomach acid).

Excess vitamin C becomes oxalate through direct degradation and without enzymes. Usually this occurs in vitamin C intake over 2000mg, but it can happen at lower doses as well.
 
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