Does a larger skull on a person signal higher intelligence ? Examining intelligence of animals with high brain-to-body (EQ) Ratios

[JamesGatz]

I think it would be useful to have a discussion on brain size and intelligence - the reason I put skull size in the thread title is that I think it is safe for one to assume that the brain cannot grow "bigger" without more space available in the skull - hence the skull having to grow bigger as well


First - an introduction - what makes an animal smarter than another animal or a person smarter than another person ?

"Encephalization quotient (EQ), encephalization level (EL), or just encephalization is a relative brain size measure that is defined as the ratio between observed to predicted brain mass for an animal of a given size, based on nonlinear regression on a range of reference species."


In layman's terms - basically just because an animal has a larger brain than another - this does not necessarily mean it is more intelligent - but if the ratio of it's brain proportionate to the rest of it's body is greater - the animal is extremely likely (I would say with certainty) to be more intelligent)


This is why they say you cannot say Whales or Elephants are the smartest animals - they have some of the largest brains - but not the largest brain to body mass ratios when compared to animals that are highly regarded as intelligent - context is important here


Examples: Animals with High EQ Ratios -

Ravens

Are ravens as smart as us? | BBC Earth

It’s well known that ravens, crows, and other members of the corvid family are more brainbox than birdbrain. But scientists continue to be astounded by just how clever these avian Einsteins prove to be.

One recent study claims that by four months old, ravens have full-blown cognitive skills and before reaching full maturity they can rival adult great apes. Another, indicates that problem-solving crows perform similarly to children under seven years of age. And what is more remarkable is the scope of intelligence that these feathered masterminds display…

Among birds, the highest brain-to-body ratios are found among parrots, crows, magpies, jays and ravens.



But corvids—a group of birds that includes jays, ravens, and crows—also spend a lot of time under their parents' wings. ... The results, reported last week in the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B , also confirm corvids have unusually large brains compared with many other birds.​

on a university campus in Japan. Carrion crows and humans line up patiently, waiting for the traffic to halt. When the lights change, the birds hop in front of the cars and place walnuts, which they picked from the adjoining trees, on the road. After the lights turn green again, the birds fly away and vehicles drive over the nuts, cracking them open. Finally, when it’s time to cross again, the crows join the pedestrians and pick up their meal.

Animals with very large flock size and/or complex social systems consistently score high EQ, with dolphins and orcas having the highest EQ of all cetaceans, and humans with their extremely large societies and complex social life topping the list by a good margin.

​

Another interesting point is that EQ ratio's tend to be different compared to men vs women and also between races amongst people (I will not delve into this further because I just know this conversation is too politically incorrect to have on this forum and that I will be attacked/targeted (as per usual - but if you are interested I would suggest looking it up for yourself

Bigger brains are smarter, but not by much

Using a large dataset and controlling for a variety of factors, including sex, age, height, socioeconomic status, and genetic ancestry, scientists found that people with larger brains rated higher on measures of intelligence and educational attainment. Size was far from everything, however...

www.sciencedaily.com

"The effect is there," says Nave, an assistant professor of marketing at Wharton. "On average, a person with a larger brain will tend to perform better on tests of cognition than one with a smaller brain."



This begs the question - knowing that someone's brain to body ratio is an excellent indicator of intelligence - would the following be true or would this be too much of a reach of an assumption ? -


Would a short man with a very large skull be indicative of an intelligent man ? It would seem that his brain might be especially large relative to the rest of his body

And inversely

Would a tall man with a very small skull be indicative of a man who may not be as intelligent ? It would seem his brain might be smaller relative to the rest of his body

You can let me know your thoughts - I am interested in seeing what people have to say on this matter

 

[Kykeon]

Special mention: ANTS
another interesting animal: SQUIRREL MONKEY (1:17 ratio highest ratio of all primates, ray mentions them and their dietary habits)

 

[JamesGatz]

Special mention: ANTS
another interesting animal: SQUIRREL MONKEY (1:17 ratio highest ratio of all primates, ray mentions them and their dietary habits)
View attachment 29535View attachment 29536

Interesting - I do notice that these intelligent animals have interesting social behavior - Bees and ants especially are highly regarded and I find it funny that they would put a woman in charge (hahaha joking of course) - ants seem to have an extraordinary ability to cooperate with each other I'm wondering why I don't see them build as many tools as other intelligent animals or maybe I'm not looking hard enough

 

[Kykeon]

Interesting - I do notice that these intelligent animals have interesting social behavior - Bees and ants especially are highly regarded and I find it funny that they would put a woman in charge (hahaha joking of course) - ants seem to have an extraordinary ability to cooperate with each other I'm wondering why I don't see them build as many tools as other intelligent animals or maybe I'm not looking hard enough

yes ants are fascinating. they can build water rafts, ~20-40% are just lazy and only do work when they are absolutely needed. Some ants are stronger and they are engaged in "necrophoresis" carrying away the dead so disease does not spread.
Colonies are self organized systems, meaning there is no top down authority from an elite ant, yet the complexity of behavior is very impressive.

They are also "milking" aphids for their sugary secretion and can tranquilize them, not really too different from what we do with cows or other milk producing animals.
There is also a species of ants that can shrink their brains to become more energy efficient. I wonder how they do it and when there are hormones at work, which ones

These ants can shrink and regrow their brains

New research on Indian jumping ants shows they can undergo dramatic reversible changes previously unknown in insects.

www.nationalgeographic.com

"Thus, we find that, unlike more cooperative species, squirrel monkeys do not respond to social contrast, that is, they do not refuse interactions if their partner receives a better reward for the same task. There are several possible explanations for the difference in outcomes between squirrel and capuchin monkeys. "

Squirrel monkeys' response to inequitable outcomes indicates a behavioural convergence within the primates | Biology Letters

Although several primates respond negatively to inequity, it is unknown whether this results from homology or convergent processes. Behaviours shared within a taxonomic group are often assumed to be homologous, yet this distinction is important for a ...

royalsocietypublishing.org

"Squirrel monkeys communicate using at least 30 distinct vocalizations and sometimes form relationships with other species of monkeys for various adaptive reasons."

Interesting that squirrel monkeys live in such large groups (up to 300 animals) but do not have social contrast (refusing to engage in tasks when another monkey gets a better reward, which many other monkeys do).


View: https://imgur.com/a/aZfmFrJ


meanwhile capuchin monkeys

 

[Lilac]

In chapter 17 of Generative Energy, Ray writes about head and brain size, intelligence, and life span. FYI, in case you have not read it. I believe there is a free, readable copy somewhere on the Web.

 

[LUH 3417]

yes ants are fascinating. they can build water rafts, ~20-40% are just lazy and only do work when they are absolutely needed. Some ants are stronger and they are engaged in "necrophoresis" carrying away the dead so disease does not spread.
Colonies are self organized systems, meaning there is no top down authority from an elite ant, yet the complexity of behavior is very impressive.

They are also "milking" aphids for their sugary secretion and can tranquilize them, not really too different from what we do with cows or other milk producing animals.
There is also a species of ants that can shrink their brains to become more energy efficient. I wonder how they do it and when there are hormones at work, which ones

These ants can shrink and regrow their brains

New research on Indian jumping ants shows they can undergo dramatic reversible changes previously unknown in insects.

www.nationalgeographic.com

"Thus, we find that, unlike more cooperative species, squirrel monkeys do not respond to social contrast, that is, they do not refuse interactions if their partner receives a better reward for the same task. There are several possible explanations for the difference in outcomes between squirrel and capuchin monkeys. "

Squirrel monkeys' response to inequitable outcomes indicates a behavioural convergence within the primates | Biology Letters

Although several primates respond negatively to inequity, it is unknown whether this results from homology or convergent processes. Behaviours shared within a taxonomic group are often assumed to be homologous, yet this distinction is important for a ...

royalsocietypublishing.org

"Squirrel monkeys communicate using at least 30 distinct vocalizations and sometimes form relationships with other species of monkeys for various adaptive reasons."

Interesting that squirrel monkeys live in such large groups (up to 300 animals) but do not have social contrast (refusing to engage in tasks when another monkey gets a better reward, which many other monkeys do).


View: https://imgur.com/a/aZfmFrJ


meanwhile capuchin monkeys

True story

 

[Drareg]

I think Peat has also mentioned that women have a larger brain relative to their body size than men.

 

[Kayaker]

I think Peat has also mentioned that women have a larger brain relative to their body size than men.

Compared to the average man, but if they compare women to nerdy men, the correlation would be null or reverse.

 

[LUH 3417]

I think Peat has also mentioned that women have a larger brain relative to their body size than men.

Something I noticed is women are able to hold multiple persons consciousness at the forefront of their own awareness, I guess this is a maternal instinct. I think this is why men and women argue, because women perceive the average man to be self centered for not being able to hold both his and her consciousness in his awareness at the time same.

 

[Kayaker]

Something I noticed is women are able to hold multiple persons consciousness at the forefront of their own awareness, I guess this is a maternal instinct. I think this is why men and women argue, because women perceive the average man to be self centered for not being able to hold both his and her consciousness in his awareness at the time same.

Then men have inferior divided attention than women?

 

[LUH 3417]

Then men have inferior divided attention than women?

I did not write inferior. It’s not about intellectual capacity or attention, just the way women orient themselves around other people’s consciousness. The popular conception of this is the idea that women are eager to please but I think this stems from our brains/consciousness lliterally wanting to fuse with another persons brain, maybe this is why collaborative ant and bee colonies have queen bee type situations.

 

[JamesGatz]

yes ants are fascinating. they can build water rafts, ~20-40% are just lazy and only do work when they are absolutely needed. Some ants are stronger and they are engaged in "necrophoresis" carrying away the dead so disease does not spread.
Colonies are self organized systems, meaning there is no top down authority from an elite ant, yet the complexity of behavior is very impressive.

They are also "milking" aphids for their sugary secretion and can tranquilize them, not really too different from what we do with cows or other milk producing animals.
There is also a species of ants that can shrink their brains to become more energy efficient. I wonder how they do it and when there are hormones at work, which ones

These ants can shrink and regrow their brains

New research on Indian jumping ants shows they can undergo dramatic reversible changes previously unknown in insects.

www.nationalgeographic.com

"Thus, we find that, unlike more cooperative species, squirrel monkeys do not respond to social contrast, that is, they do not refuse interactions if their partner receives a better reward for the same task. There are several possible explanations for the difference in outcomes between squirrel and capuchin monkeys. "

Squirrel monkeys' response to inequitable outcomes indicates a behavioural convergence within the primates | Biology Letters

Although several primates respond negatively to inequity, it is unknown whether this results from homology or convergent processes. Behaviours shared within a taxonomic group are often assumed to be homologous, yet this distinction is important for a ...

royalsocietypublishing.org

"Squirrel monkeys communicate using at least 30 distinct vocalizations and sometimes form relationships with other species of monkeys for various adaptive reasons."

Interesting that squirrel monkeys live in such large groups (up to 300 animals) but do not have social contrast (refusing to engage in tasks when another monkey gets a better reward, which many other monkeys do).


View: https://imgur.com/a/aZfmFrJ


meanwhile capuchin monkeys

Interesting - I notice for the squirrel monkeys - they have a bigger forehead and the top of their skull is bigger compared to other monkeys - when I look at monkeys that are considered less intelligent or even gorillas who are generally considered a lot less intelligent - their foreheads and the top of their heads arent that big relative to their face and the rest of their body - I also find it interesting that the less intelligent chimps and gorillas look a lot more androgenic - like they have bodies more focused on muscle than brains - meanwhile this squirrel monkey seems to be all brains - interesting to think about

 

[Kayaker]

I did not write inferior. It’s not about intellectual capacity or attention, just the way women orient themselves around other people’s consciousness. The popular conception of this is the idea that women are eager to please but I think this stems from our brains/consciousness lliterally wanting to fuse with another persons brain, maybe this is why collaborative ant and bee colonies have queen bee type situations.

Then women are more likely to support communism or socialism than men are, regardless of feminism?

It makes sense since both leftists and women have more white matter, and less gray matter.

The more submissive, the more authoritarian

I agree, the human brain hasn’t evolved for thousands of years, the old cliche of history repeating itself is not exactly correct, it’s more a case of human perception repeating itself within differing contexts/environments. The ruling class are submitting to a need for desire, when you can...

raypeatforum.com

There is more room for complexity if labor is divided. This also means leadership is given to someone. What's created is a complex society, and it becomes a part of the brain that's open to complexity.

An independent person does most things themselves, so they don't have much energy left for complex things. But since they don't need people much, they don't need the energy anyway.

Women want to be fused, maybe because they have a lower ability to be independent. Less gray matter and less physical strength. They are attracted to men who they perceive as capable of filling in what they lack. At first glance, men who are superficially independent and capable, but over time, they see aspects like social status, financial security, etc.

It reminds me of how women are attracted to more masculine men in countries lacking a good healthcare system or something like that. The countries offer no feeling of security, thus they're attracted to men who make them feel secure.

Women who have their needs fulfilled by the system (who fuse with the system) are probably less attracted to men in general. The newest generation of young people has the least sex.

Men don't need women in the same way that women need them, or the traits that they'd normally be encouraged to develop. Men seem to see women as trophies in the same category as money and power.

 

[LUH 3417]

Then women are more likely to support communism or socialism than men are, regardless of feminism?

It makes sense since both leftists and women have more white matter, and less gray matter.

The more submissive, the more authoritarian

I agree, the human brain hasn’t evolved for thousands of years, the old cliche of history repeating itself is not exactly correct, it’s more a case of human perception repeating itself within differing contexts/environments. The ruling class are submitting to a need for desire, when you can...

raypeatforum.com

There is more room for complexity if labor is divided. This also means leadership is given to someone. What's created is a complex society, and it becomes a part of the brain that's open to complexity.

An independent person does most things themselves, so they don't have much energy left for complex things. But since they don't need people much, they don't need the energy anyway.

Women want to be fused, maybe because they have a lower ability to be independent. Less gray matter and less physical strength. They are attracted to men who they perceive as capable of filling in what they lack. At first glance, men who are superficially independent and capable, but over time, they see aspects like social status, financial security, etc.

It reminds me of how women are attracted to more masculine men in countries lacking a good healthcare system or something like that. The countries offer no feeling of security, thus they're attracted to men who make them feel secure.

Women who have their needs fulfilled by the system (who fuse with the system) are probably less attracted to men in general. The newest generation of young people has the least sex.

Men don't need women in the same way that women need them, or the traits that they'd normally be encouraged to develop. Men seem to see women as trophies in the same category as money and power.

I could go to reddit if this is the kind of convo I was looking for

 

[Kayaker]

Not willing to discuss a topic? Don't post about it.

 

[LUH 3417]

Not willing to discuss a topic? Don't post about it.

Not willing to go autism reductionist with ya homie

 

[Kykeon]

their foreheads and the top of their heads arent that big relative to their face and the rest of their body - I also find it interesting that the less intelligent chimps and gorillas look a lot more androgenic - like they have bodies more focused on muscle than brains - meanwhile this squirrel monkey seems to be all brains - interesting to think about

ray is writing about this in generative energy, like raysputin mentioned.

Marion Diamond, who studied the effects of stimulation on rats' brain development, found that pregnancy or progesterone treatment--like freedom and stimulation--caused the brain to grow, and estrogen--like stress--caused it to shrink. The larger-brained animals had smaller faces, and the confined, stressed rats had smaller brains and bigger faces. (I see no reason to doubt that human proportions are similarly influenced by prenatal stress; Generative Energy, p. 121

Squirrel monkeys live to 20 years, while gorillas live up to 35 years. The oldest known squirrel monkey became 27.
Squirrel Monkey body temperature is quite high, while gorillas are colder.

Awake, restrained squirrel monkeys normally have a temperature of 38 to 39.5°C. Healthy, active, struggling animals may rapidly increase their body temperatures as high as 41°C.

What Gave Some Primates Bigger Brains? A Fruit-Filled Diet

A new study suggests that diet had a big influence in driving the evolution of brain size in primates. Monkeys who thrive on fruit have bigger brains than their plant eating neighbors.

www.npr.org

But DeCasien says she and her colleagues were surprised to find that these omnivores have significantly smaller brains than fruit-eaters. They suspect it could be because many of these omnivores, like lemurs and lorises, eat insects. "[Insects] may be abundant like leaves and might be easy to capture," she says.

I wonder what makes the squirrel monkeys so short-lived.
Notable:

Squirrel monkeys are recognized as some of the most susceptible nonhuman primate species for the experimental transmission of Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease and other transmissible spongiform encephalopathies that cause chronic wasting disease.

 

[JamesGatz]

I wonder what makes the squirrel monkeys so short-lived.
Notable:

Very Interesting - I had a theory that the bigger the brain of an animal becomes relative to the rest of its body - the more of an energetic expense it can become throughout the animal's life - it seems that when we discuss the family of an animal - the one's with the smaller brains seem to live longer oddly enough and I feel like it would make more sense for the opposite to occur - maybe a high androgen animal like a gorilla requires less energy relative to a large-brained animal like the squirrel monkey - it really puts the whole jock-nerd stereotype in people in a different light - I think maybe if there were some statistics on the lifespans fort these types of people that can be put together it would really be helpful envisioning this - just my own theory for now

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

Look at the guy with the highest IQ, Chris Langan measured at 200

He has a massive head and even stated this as such

 

[JamesGatz]

Look at the guy with the highest IQ, Chris Langan measured at 200

He has a massive head and even stated this as such

Interesting - he seems to have a skull circumference of 25.5 inches or so which is very large - i think this is actually too big to fit in any standard cap's loosest setting and he would have to get a Double XL cap to fit - I think this accommodates up to a 27 inch circumference