Do We Create Our Own Nutrition?

[Oliver]

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub 0pubmed

"We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise; testosterone with no exercise; placebo plus exercise; and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period, fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-press and squatting exercises, respectively."

Please see the chart attached. The group receiving exogenous testosterone without exercising, gained more muscle mass than the group that exercised and did not take exogenous testosterone.

I saw the chart and i read the study. Two things; if we are doing any kind of molecule study - then simply tag and track the molecule, the exogenous one, see where it goes, see what it does. We now have SMS (single molecule science) to get a better sense of what these exogenous molecules do once they meet up with cells, once they breach cells, if breaching actually occurs, and what they do inside the cell.

That study doesn't need 40 people. That study does away with so much assumption and speculation.

The second issue is that just because we inject or eat something, we should not assume that the molecule knows where to go and what to do once it "gets' to where we think it is going, and again do what we think it will do. The body doesn't work that way. Testosterone, especially because we make it ourselves is certainly not going to all of a sudden make a B line to muscles and start having them grow. A teen can exist with zero muscles - totally skinny - yet have raging hormones which include testosterone. Science must always mesh with reality.

On my blog site i have an article called "tag you're it..." It speaks exactly to these studies and how the science and the math doesn't add up - as regards how we get bigger, stronger muscles.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I saw the chart and i read the study. Two things; if we are doing any kind of molecule study - then simply tag and track the molecule, the exogenous one, see where it goes, see what it does. We now have SMS (single molecule science) to get a better sense of what these exogenous molecules do once they meet up with cells, once they breach cells, if breaching actually occurs, and what they do inside the cell.

That study doesn't need 40 people. That study does away with so much assumption and speculation.

The second issue is that just because we inject or eat something, we should not assume that the molecule knows where to go and what to do once it "gets' to where we think it is going, and again do what we think it will do. The body doesn't work that way. Testosterone, especially because we make it ourselves is certainly not going to all of a sudden make a B line to muscles and start having them grow. A teen can exist with zero muscles - totally skinny - yet have raging hormones which include testosterone. Science must always mesh with reality.

On my blog site i have an article called "tag you're it..." It speaks exactly to these studies and how the science and the math doesn't add up - as regards how we get bigger, stronger muscles.

..Testosterone makes totally the Bee-Line you are metaphoring to?T' is transported,transporters are B'-Lining,but that cant you know?There is also chemotaxis,the beelining you refering to!Your' "tagging" is another nonsense,it is called 'labeling',such techniques are decades old,just like i am!

 

[Oliver]

I have been reading things on your blog and here too and I have a couple of questions. Simple questions but I am curious.

1. I see you were eating beans. I am thinking you are referring to a kidney beans of some sort. I am guessing these would be good for mineral content (of course sugar too). Which is best for minerals, canned or dried?

2. Antibiotics. I guess I need more of an explanation of how this doesn't as opposed does work. Or should I think how I have been told it works. If you could give me some understanding to go down a new rabbit hole please.

3. Since you are finding in your research that vitamins do not make it through digestion then am I right to think that minerals and sugar are what is making it through digestion to fuel our bodies to make vitamins?

@Oliver

Thank you.

A raw bean would be all kinds of hyper toxic. I eat all kinds of beans but i soak and boil the heck out of them, to render the toxic enzymes moot, null and void. Soy beans are uber toxic and must be boiled, high pressure steam treated etc. to make tofu. So much boiling can leach many minerals. Raw foods that don't require cooking or extensive washing are a good source for minerals - as well fresh drinking water.

You body makes anti biotics. Pills, are now more so being rejected by the body. This rejection can be problematic and cause more harm then the problem for which u take them. I am not anti anti biotics but i have better faith in my own immune system to fight and stave off infections etc.

Minerals and digestion; Minerals are single atoms, single elements - or clusters of the same element/atoms etc. They are not molecules made of differing components, all bonded together allowing for the potential for bonds to be broken, undone. Thus a mineral can make it through a digestive gauntlet than can a molecule. A mineral can also survive light, heat, oxygen, etc much better that so many molecules.

Sugar is also a molecule but unlike proteins or amino acids, fats and vitamins, it falls into a separate class of molecules, what science calls “pure substances”. Whereas a protein say is made up of differing elements, materials, the amino acids, which are each different as well, with different roles and functions, ‘pure substances’ are made of the same material throughout and have the same properties throughout. Pure substances cannot be separated into other substances. Some examples are carbon, iron, the fore mentioned sugar, salt, nitrogen gas, and oxygen gas.

Sugar will break down into sugar – even when you cook it. Unlike your raw egg, with sugar you can also have it sit on a shelf for years and years like in a jar in some lonely all night diner, and it will remain a sugar – or breakdown into another type of sugar as is the case with sucrose, fructose, lactose, honey etc. With fruit, after death, many time the sugar quotient increases – a raisin has more sugar/carbs than does a grape.

And each type of those sugars, for humans to consume, will always still be able to have the same primary function – providing energy, acting as a triggering device to start some chemical process/reaction. Glucose has other roles, structural etc., in all species but I am looking at it for these purposes mainly as a prime fuel source (fuel to enable so much internal body synthesis and chemical dynamics – and fuel to run a mile).

 

[Oliver]

These are your studies from your article:

Kwashiorkor in the United States

"Kwashiorkor is the edematous form of protein-energy malnutrition."

"Twelve children were diagnosed as having kwashiorkor in 7 tertiary referral centers throughout the United States. The diagnoses were based on the characteristic rash and the overall clinical presentation. The rash consisted of an erosive, crusting, desquamating dermatitis sometimes with classic "pasted-on" scale—the so-called flaky paint sign. Most cases were due to nutritional ignorance, perceived milk intolerance, or food faddism. Half of the cases were the result of a deliberate deviation to a protein-deficient diet because of a perceived intolerance of formula or milk. Financial and social stresses were a factor in only 2 cases, and in both cases social chaos was more of a factor than an absolute lack of financial resources. Misleading dietary histories and the presence of edema masking growth failure obscured the clinical picture in some cases."


Contributions of Intestinal Bacteria to Nutrition and Metabolism in the Critically Ill

"A series of experiments involving labeled inorganic nitrogen suggests that up to 20% of circulating lysine and threonine in nonruminant mammals, including adult humans, is synthesized by gut microbes [18, 19]. Similarly, Raj, et al. demonstrated that gut microbial synthesis of leucine in adult men was approximately 20% of the dietary amount [17]."

"Elevated urease expression in gut microbes results in metabolism of urea in the GI tract into ammonia and carbon dioxide. Some of the ammonia can be utilized for microbial synthesis of amino acids."

"By use of x-ray absorptiometry and epididymal fat pad weight analysis, it was demonstrated that wild-type (WT) animals contained 42% more total body fat than GF animals, despite a higher metabolic rate and a reduced daily consumption of standard chow [30]."

"By use of x-ray absorptiometry and epididymal fat pad weight analysis, it was demonstrated that wild-type (WT) animals contained 42% more total body fat than GF animals, despite a higher metabolic rate and a reduced daily consumption of standard chow [30]. To mechanistically evaluate this finding, the authors transferred the microbiota of WT animals to GF animals. A rapid increase (within 10 days) of total body fat content and epididymal fat weight was noted despite no significant difference in total body weight. Intriguingly, colonization of GF mice with just a single gut microbe (B. thetaiotaocmicron, discussed above) also yielded a significant increase in total body fat content, although the increase in fat content was less than that seen with transfer of the complete mouse microbiota."

"Further work in this model suggested that the microbiota stimulates increased hepatic triglyceride production and promotes storage of adipocyte triglycerides by suppressing the activity of a circulating inhibitor of lipoprotein lipase [30]."

"Most human diets provide a robust supply of vitamins, the essential human nutrients that must be obtained from exogenous sources. However, it has long been recognized that gut microbes also contribute to vitamin synthesis."

"that up to half of the daily Vitamin K requirement is provided by gut bacteria"

"Studies of energy balance in conventional and GF animals led to the hypothesis that the microbial ecology of the GI tract contributes to the pathogenesis of obesity"

Urea Nitrogen Salvage Mechanisms and Their Relevance to Ruminants, Non-Ruminants and Man - PubMed

"Studies of energy balance in conventional and GF animals led to the hypothesis that the microbial ecology of the GI tract contributes to the pathogenesis of obesity"

ammonia is a known toxin and combined with carbon dioxide to form urea as a waste product on purpose.....


The Presence of N2-fixing Bacteria in the Intestines of Man and Animals | Microbiology Society

"Best N2-fixation was by cultures provisionally identified as Klebsiella aerogenes, but other genera were also involved. All cultures fixed more N2 anaerobically than aerobically but some fixation occurred when 20% O2was present."

Klebsiella species are known pathogens. I'm pretty sure the gut O2 tension isn't at 20%.

Nitrogen fixation and nifH diversity in human gut microbiota
"Collectively, the human gut microbiota has a potential for nitrogen fixation, which may be attributable to Klebsiella and Clostridiales strains, although no evidence was found that the nitrogen-fixing activity substantially contributes to the host nitrogen balance."

Intestinal Microbial Contribution to Metabolic Leucine Input in Adult Men
"The contribution of the intestinal microbiota to body leucine input was estimated to be between 19 and 22% at the 1.25 EAR diet."


Leucine Supplementation Has No Further Effect on... : Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise
"Protein intake was roughly double that of the RDA in both groups and remained unchanged across time with no differences detected between groups. Similar increases were observed between groups in leg-press 1RM (LEU: 19.0 ± 9.4% and PLA: 21.0 ± 10.4%, p=0.31) and mCSA (LEU: 8.0 ± 5.6% and PLA: 8.4 ± 5.1%, p=0.77)."

The protein intake was already 2x the RDA despite the leucine supplementation.


Can't speak to the random letter you posted that has no referenced articles to it.

The kwashiokor meta study was just that - Meta. It discusses a broad history of the understandings of potential or assumed causal dynamics - yet u forgot to include the conclusive statement - which states so many factors and not the issue of not having steak or eggs in the diet as the reason for kwashiorkor. U can't leave that out. When they tell u that at the end of the day it aint lack of proteins in a diet that was the cause - you can't leave that out.

I read a 200 plus meta study on the essential amino acids done by the World Health Org. All 200 plus pages speak to nitrogen balance and the importance of dietary proteins -m and they make all manner of amounts of recommendations for so many body types and ages etc. And then all of a sudden, one paragraph in the entire study quite causally states “NO DIRECT EVIDENCE THAT MAINTENANCE OF THE BODY PROTEIN MASS IS SYNONYMOUS WITH HEALTH…” Wait what? DUH

And of course we have since learned (2007 was when the WHO study was done) that testing for nitrogen balance, amino acids from diet will have it's numbers skewed due to the fact that we have our own bacteria fixing nitrogen and synthesizing the essential amino acids...

And with the other studies - we see that in fact we can fix nitrogen and we can synthesize amino acids. These are game changers in our understanding of how the body works and what we don't need from outside sources.

 

[Oliver]

False is False.The Provision of prooof is on you,you have to spoonfeed it to us if we shoud invest precious time in this trial.My admittedly narrow minded Ghost can see a nonsense in reality,mind you,you & your ramblings are such a bitter pill to consume.Everything we know is decades old % false?Thats a mouthful!!

You don't have to spend any time, not a second, learning this new stuff. I could not give a crap what u do mr loca. I don't have to prove anything - you have to prove how a molecule, vitamin C for instance, a most labile molecule, makes it past death and decay, exposure to light and oxygen, stands up to heat, runs the gauntlet of digestive enzymes and does what u think it does....

U work on explaining that and get back to us.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

A raw bean would be all kinds of hyper toxic. I eat all kinds of beans but i soak and boil the heck out of them, to render the toxic enzymes moot, null and void. Soy beans are uber toxic and must be boiled, high pressure steam treated etc. to make tofu. So much boiling can leach many minerals. Raw foods that don't require cooking or extensive washing are a good source for minerals - as well fresh drinking water.

You body makes anti biotics. Pills, are now more so being rejected by the body. This rejection can be problematic and cause more harm then the problem for which u take them. I am not anti anti biotics but i have better faith in my own immune system to fight and stave off infections etc.

Minerals and digestion; Minerals are single atoms, single elements - or clusters of the same element/atoms etc. They are not molecules made of differing components, all bonded together allowing for the potential for bonds to be broken, undone. Thus a mineral can make it through a digestive gauntlet than can a molecule. A mineral can also survive light, heat, oxygen, etc much better that so many molecules.

Sugar is also a molecule but unlike proteins or amino acids, fats and vitamins, it falls into a separate class of molecules, what science calls “pure substances”. Whereas a protein say is made up of differing elements, materials, the amino acids, which are each different as well, with different roles and functions, ‘pure substances’ are made of the same material throughout and have the same properties throughout. Pure substances cannot be separated into other substances. Some examples are carbon, iron, the fore mentioned sugar, salt, nitrogen gas, and oxygen gas.

Sugar will break down into sugar – even when you cook it. Unlike your raw egg, with sugar you can also have it sit on a shelf for years and years like in a jar in some lonely all night diner, and it will remain a sugar – or breakdown into another type of sugar as is the case with sucrose, fructose, lactose, honey etc. With fruit, after death, many time the sugar quotient increases – a raisin has more sugar/carbs than does a grape.

And each type of those sugars, for humans to consume, will always still be able to have the same primary function – providing energy, acting as a triggering device to start some chemical process/reaction. Glucose has other roles, structural etc., in all species but I am looking at it for these purposes mainly as a prime fuel source (fuel to enable so much internal body synthesis and chemical dynamics – and fuel to run a mile).

Now we're talking!A bunch of nonsense here,as myselph analysed before.There is much wrongness,it is complicated and time consuming to deproof such claims with no known correspondence to truth itself.Digestion is not a gauntlet though,Huemans do not make Anti-Biotics,something similar,yet different.

"Pure substances cannot be separated into other substances. Some examples are carbon, iron, the fore mentioned sugar, salt, nitrogen gas, and oxygen gas."

sugar is a molecule,so it can bee broken down,it is a complex molecule already,look at this: C₆H₁₂O₆,the chemical struc of Glucose.

 

[Oliver]

..Testosterone makes totally the Bee-Line you are metaphoring to?T' is transported,transporters are B'-Lining,but that cant you know?There is also chemotaxis,the beelining you refering to!Your' "tagging" is another nonsense,it is called 'labeling',such techniques are decades old,just like i am!

It's called tagging, labeling, marking - The name does not matter - u know what i mean and real lab folk do as well - they coined the term tag - idiot. And still u have no study that tagged the molecule. To speak to transports - those are inner workings, biochemical dynamics that happens with the molecules we make in cells and the liver etc.

But if u want to think these testosterone supps work then have at it - by them all up - good luck with that muscle growth...

 

[Oliver]

Now we're talking!A bunch of nonsense here,as myselph analysed before.There is much wrongness,it is complicated and time consuming to deproof such claims with no known correspondence to truth itself.Digestion is not a gauntlet though,Huemans do not make Anti-Biotics,something similar,yet different.

"Pure substances cannot be separated into other substances. Some examples are carbon, iron, the fore mentioned sugar, salt, nitrogen gas, and oxygen gas."

sugar is a molecule,so it can bee broken down,it is a complex molecule already,look at this: C₆H₁₂O₆,the chemical struc of Glucose.

Poor tristan, poor desparate tristan. We are past the sugar can be broken down - we stated this - but broken down to to another sugar idiot. Vitamin c once "broken" is no longer vitamin c...... Keep up. Learn some real biochem and get back to us.

 

[Oliver]

indeed,something is fishy here.It just doesnt add up?..But what if we are wrong!

Wrong about which - or what?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Wrong about which - or what?

no no no, U' are wrong,U are wrong.-

 

[Oliver]

no no no, U' are wrong,U are wrong.-

Well alllllrighty then, tristy has spoken....

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Well alllllrighty then, tristy has spoken....

 

[RealNeat]

That explains a lot - you have little to no research skills - or reading comprehension. Everyone but u it seems knows that the OP put the link to my site. I too have mentioned the science and links and details are on my site - which again is linked by op. So, go back and read the threads and the op's, check the link, read the articles, see the links posted in the articles (work done by chemists in this century) and get back to us at your leisure - experiment with this simple research exercise i just presented to you - and let us know how it goes...

do you see your tone? Blind on multiple fronts.

I have been reading things on your blog and here too and I have a couple of questions. Simple questions but I am curious.

1. I see you were eating beans. I am thinking you are referring to a kidney beans of some sort. I am guessing these would be good for mineral content (of course sugar too). Which is best for minerals, canned or dried?

2. Antibiotics. I guess I need more of an explanation of how this doesn't as opposed does work. Or should I think how I have been told it works. If you could give me some understanding to go down a new rabbit hole please.

3. Since you are finding in your research that vitamins do not make it through digestion then am I right to think that minerals and sugar are what is making it through digestion to fuel our bodies to make vitamins?

@Oliver

Thank you.

no no he is not "finding" that they don't make it. He is ASSUMING, because of the degradation process. Assumptions asserted as fact with 8472947928268763299202 times the evidence against him. Hear him out if you wish but everything you need to know lies within the work of fiction that is his website.

 

[X3CyO]

1. From this source, we can see that in some people, there are bacteria that are known to fix nitrogen, but the data doesn't show how much bacteria fix how much nitrogen, nor if it happens in situ.

• Spoiler: sci-hub.tw/10.1099/00221287-60-1-61

  All cultures fixed more N, anaerobically than aerobically but some fixation occurred when 20 % O2, was present.; [Europeans]... One sample (H) showed a small but significant production of ethylene amounting to about 1.5 mpmole. Later, a further sample was obtained from the same donor and examined in the same way together with samples from four other European donors. Again H was the only positive reaction observed.; samples of faecal material from sweet potato-eaters were flown to Canberra, packed in ice, from the Morobe district, Territory of Papua-New Guinea (T.P.N.G.). These were examined for acetylene reduction, and on both occasions all specimens showed slight but significant activity. Cultures were obtained from all of the second set of samples, which were able to grow well on Burk medium supplemented with traces of yeast extract. These cultures were obtained from high dilutions of the original faeces (10^-6 to 10^-8), indicating that the organisms were present in high numbers (cultures H3 to H6). N,-fixing bacteria can be isolated from the faeces of man and the intestinal contents of pigs and guinea-pigs. The best nitrogen-fixers appeared to be Klebsiella aerogenes but at least three other genera also occur. It has not been established that N,-fixation occurs in situ.

1. This one is provides a lot more information; 2016; Some factors that mess with the data include time to examination after defecation, and pre-freezing of samples.
2. "we collected faecal samples from PNG (Papua New Guinean) individuals with low to sufficient nitrogen intake, and from Japanese individuals, with much higher nitrogen intake." These people have a diet "composed mostly of sweet potatoes today, resulting in a below-standard nitrogen intake19, even though their average nitrogen intake has been increasing since the 1970s."

• Spoiler: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep31942

  "host nitrogen intake ranged from below to above (67.3–209.1 mg/kg body weight/day) the standard requirement (105 mg/kg body weight/day)" "The emission of ethylene was observed in the presence of acetylene, and the nitrogen fixation rates were estimated to be 0.008 and 0.143 nmol/g/h, when the theoretical reduction ratio C2H2:N2 ≈ 3 was used."we also evaluated the effect of freezing on the nitrogen-fixing activity. All the unfrozen samples showed acetylene-reducing activities, ranging 0.055–1.608 nmol/g/h, which were 1.6–9.5 times higher than the values for the corresponding frozen samples";... The acetylene-reduction rates in the human faecal samples were up to 1.6 nmol/g/h, which is comparable to those detectedI in herbivorous mammals, such as sheep (0–1.4 nmol/g/h in the rumen)8,9,10, a rabbit (0.38 nmol/g/h in the cecum)8, and a reindeer (0–0.77 nmol/g/h in faeces)8. The nitrogen fixed in the human faecal samples corresponded to 0.36 mg/kg gut content/day, and the contribution to the host nitrogen balance was estimated to be 0.01%, at most. no evidence was found that the nitrogen-fixing activity substantially contributes to the host nitrogen balance.;...

are there any other studies showing higher amounts of nitrogen fixation?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

1. From this source, we can see that in some people, there are bacteria that are known to fix nitrogen, but the data doesn't show how much bacteria fix how much nitrogen, nor if it happens in situ.

• Spoiler: sci-hub.tw/10.1099/00221287-60-1-61

  All cultures fixed more N, anaerobically than aerobically but some fixation occurred when 20 % O2, was present.; [Europeans]... One sample (H) showed a small but significant production of ethylene amounting to about 1.5 mpmole. Later, a further sample was obtained from the same donor and examined in the same way together with samples from four other European donors. Again H was the only positive reaction observed.; samples of faecal material from sweet potato-eaters were flown to Canberra, packed in ice, from the Morobe district, Territory of Papua-New Guinea (T.P.N.G.). These were examined for acetylene reduction, and on both occasions all specimens showed slight but significant activity. Cultures were obtained from all of the second set of samples, which were able to grow well on Burk medium supplemented with traces of yeast extract. These cultures were obtained from high dilutions of the original faeces (10^-6 to 10^-8), indicating that the organisms were present in high numbers (cultures H3 to H6). N,-fixing bacteria can be isolated from the faeces of man and the intestinal contents of pigs and guinea-pigs. The best nitrogen-fixers appeared to be Klebsiella aerogenes but at least three other genera also occur. It has not been established that N,-fixation occurs in situ.

1. This one is provides a lot more information; 2016; Some factors that mess with the data include time to examination after defecation, and pre-freezing of samples.
2. "we collected faecal samples from PNG (Papua New Guinean) individuals with low to sufficient nitrogen intake, and from Japanese individuals, with much higher nitrogen intake." These people have a diet "composed mostly of sweet potatoes today, resulting in a below-standard nitrogen intake19, even though their average nitrogen intake has been increasing since the 1970s."

• Spoiler: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep31942

  "host nitrogen intake ranged from below to above (67.3–209.1 mg/kg body weight/day) the standard requirement (105 mg/kg body weight/day)" "The emission of ethylene was observed in the presence of acetylene, and the nitrogen fixation rates were estimated to be 0.008 and 0.143 nmol/g/h, when the theoretical reduction ratio C2H2:N2 ≈ 3 was used."we also evaluated the effect of freezing on the nitrogen-fixing activity. All the unfrozen samples showed acetylene-reducing activities, ranging 0.055–1.608 nmol/g/h, which were 1.6–9.5 times higher than the values for the corresponding frozen samples";... The acetylene-reduction rates in the human faecal samples were up to 1.6 nmol/g/h, which is comparable to those detectedI in herbivorous mammals, such as sheep (0–1.4 nmol/g/h in the rumen)8,9,10, a rabbit (0.38 nmol/g/h in the cecum)8, and a reindeer (0–0.77 nmol/g/h in faeces)8. The nitrogen fixed in the human faecal samples corresponded to 0.36 mg/kg gut content/day, and the contribution to the host nitrogen balance was estimated to be 0.01%, at most. no evidence was found that the nitrogen-fixing activity substantially contributes to the host nitrogen balance.;...

are there any other studies showing higher amounts of nitrogen fixation?

indeed,thought so.its a huge nonsense in reality.

 

[Pdohlen]

Keep up the good work @Oliver

I for one think your ideas are interesting, and I am dissapointed at how your ideas have been received on this forum by some users. I posted a link to your content under the "anti-peat" tag just because it goes against much of Ray Peats views on vitamins and proteins. Come to glucose and energy I think you are sort of alligned, and I hoped to spark a fruitful discussion, but hey.. it certainly sparked something

 

[RealNeat]

Keep up the good work @Oliver

I for one think your ideas are interesting, and I am dissapointed at how your ideas have been received on this forum by some users. I posted a link to your content under the "anti-peat" tag just because it goes against much of Ray Peats views on vitamins and proteins. Come to glucose and energy I think you are sort of alligned, and I hoped to spark a fruitful discussion, but hey.. it certainly sparked something

You should try it! Eat only potatoes and water, report back. True method of knowledge is experiment. I'm sure you'll "survive."

 

[Tristan Loscha]

You should try it! Eat only potatoes and water, report back. True method of knowledge is experiment. I'm sure you'll "survive."

I enjoyed the exchanges with Oliver,hope he makes a comeback of sorts and fixes his nitrogen,but indeed,'everything' we need is the crude water,the starch,the minerals,the nitrogen fixing bacteria then come into play.I guess not!