Do Healthy People Have Higher T3 Levels Than T4 Levels

[Elize]

Greetings to all

I was wondering why people like me who live their lives with thyroid issues are being pushed to have higher T3 than T4 levels. Is it normal to have higher T3 than T4 levels. That is why I wondered if those who have no thyroid issue have higher T3 levels or not. If T3 is not higher in them, why would we be told that our T3 levels should be higher. When my T3 levels are higher my labs look great but I feel worse, shaky, sweating, very tired at times and my adrenal health just seems worse. So what is the natural levels our bodies really should have. Higher T3 or higher T4 levels. T3 seems to open up a whole new can of worms for many people. Could it be that some of use just do not do well on T3 and should our TSH levels really need to be lower for better health. Yes I know that TSH results are no longer as highly regarded as in the past.

Thanks for sharing

Elize

 

[marsaday]

I think good thyroid labs for a normal healthy person are mid range. FT4 is mid range and FT3 is mid to slightly higher.

In the uk the range for FT3 is 3.2-6.2 nmol (approx). So a value in the 5's is a place to be. If you get into the 6's or 7's (older reference range was up to 7.8) then you can start to have issues.

The reason why a higher FT3 reading is not so good is that it shows the T3 is sitting in the blood and not jumping into the cells. This is often a problem caused by cortisol issues. Cortisol will drag the T3 into the cell and it will work its magic. If you have low cortisol then not enough T3 gets pulled into the cell. If you have too much cortisol this can cause a blocking issue or the T3 is used up too fast.

Note: i am unsure regarding this last statement, but thought i would put it up and if people want to correct my thinking please do i.e., is cortisol blocking the T3 or is it sucked up too fast, or is something else happening?

If you are using T3 and it isn't working out a common mistake is using too much. Dr Blanchard (now recently deceased) has written in his books T3 usage is far too high and the 25mcg tablet is way over what we should be using. He says tablets should be made in 1mcg, 0.5mcg and even as low as 0.1mcg strength tablets. He feels a T4/T3 ratio is best around 98:2.

So try using a small amount of T3 and see how you get on. I don't know if you take T4, so this may influence how much you take. I take 125 T4 and 3mcg T3 per day.

My T3 dose is taken in the afternoon and it works VERY well. I used to take 150 T4 and 50 T3 and you would think more would be better but this couldn't be further from the truth. With hormones LESS is MORE and finding your own personal balance is the key.

Also timing of doses is very important. T4 at bedtime works so much better for me as it aids cortisol production when we sleep.

Vitamin D really help thyroid function as do other vitamin and minerals. Also taking thyroid meds WITH food is generally a better idea and goes against conventional thinking as to taking thyroid meds on an empty stomach.

 

[jkozlow3]

Also timing of doses is very important. T4 at bedtime works so much better for me as it aids cortisol production when we sleep.

Vitamin D really help thyroid function as do other vitamin and minerals. Also taking thyroid meds WITH food is generally a better idea and goes against conventional thinking as to taking thyroid meds on an empty stomach.

Marsaday,

Do take your T4 at bedtime or with dinner? You mentioned bedtime and also mentioned food, so I'm just curious which one works better for you?

I know that Dr. Blanchard mentioned in his latest book that many patients sleep better when taking with dinner - 3-5 hours before bed. I'm considering trying this out, but I'm guessing that I'll have to increase my T4 dose by 15-20% or so due to decreased absorption with food. I'm also going to try 1/4 - 1/2 grain of NDT per day as well. I've done 100% T4 (for 13 years) and 100% NDT for several months and neither has worked particularly well for me.

Also, I know Dr. Blanchard doesn't like TSH to be too low, perhaps due to TSH's role in aiding in T4>T3 conversion. He doesn't specifically mention an ideal TSH range in his books (not that I noticed anyway), but I'm guessing that he shoots for a TSH in the 1-2 range. Any thoughts on this or personal experience you'd like to share? Based on Google searches I've done, there aren't a lot of people that post online who've tried Dr. Blanchard's approach, so it's nice to find one who has!

Thanks!

 

[marsaday]

TSH of 1 would be great, maybe as low as 0.5 BUT the FT numbers are more important.

I take my T4 at bedtime, so approx 11pm. This has been much better for me over the last few years. Much better than in the morning.

Paul Robinson has written a book on thyroid dosing in the early hours of the morning as this replicates how the body works. When we go to sleep we make thyroid in the first part of the night. At the end of the night we make cortisol. The thyroid and cortisol production match each other approx. So low thyroid people have low levels of cortisol.

He found from urine analysis his cortisol increased by 300% because he used T3 at 4am in the morning.

I have recently just tried this and at the moment the results are even better than bedtime dosing. I am taking 100T4 and 6.25 T3 at 4am and then 25 T4 in the afternoon. The results are great and i think the cortisol production will increase over time. I can tell it has increased so far, but the longer you do this the more adaptive the body becomes. It can often be the case less thyroid meds are needed in the longterm because thyroid and cortisol are much more closely matched. Plus the system is all natural. The body is doing what it is meant to do.

 

[Syncopated]

When we go to sleep we make thyroid in the first part of the night. At the end of the night we make cortisol. The thyroid and cortisol production match each other approx. So low thyroid people have low levels of cortisol.

He found from urine analysis his cortisol increased by 300% because he used T3 at 4am in the morning.

I would be interested to know whether a person's cortisol would rise as much in the morning if that person's free fatty acids stored were little to no polyunsaturates. Perhaps it is the extra polyunsaturate free fatty acids that are being liberated from the stored tissues.

Ray Peat once said that a doctor couldn't sleep and tried Cytomel resulting in a calm baby type sleep.

Deeper and more R. E. M. sleep would seem to be the result of enhancing thyroid and suppressing cortisol in the mornings.

 

[GelatinGoblin]

TSH of 1 would be great, maybe as low as 0.5 BUT the FT numbers are more important.

I take my T4 at bedtime, so approx 11pm. This has been much better for me over the last few years. Much better than in the morning.

Paul Robinson has written a book on thyroid dosing in the early hours of the morning as this replicates how the body works. When we go to sleep we make thyroid in the first part of the night. At the end of the night we make cortisol. The thyroid and cortisol production match each other approx. So low thyroid people have low levels of cortisol.

He found from urine analysis his cortisol increased by 300% because he used T3 at 4am in the morning.

I have recently just tried this and at the moment the results are even better than bedtime dosing. I am taking 100T4 and 6.25 T3 at 4am and then 25 T4 in the afternoon. The results are great and i think the cortisol production will increase over time. I can tell it has increased so far, but the longer you do this the more adaptive the body becomes. It can often be the case less thyroid meds are needed in the longterm because thyroid and cortisol are much more closely matched. Plus the system is all natural. The body is doing what it is meant to do.

Isn't Hypothyroidism usually accompanied by other health problems such as HIGH Cortisol or Estrogen?

 

[GelatinGoblin]

Especially in the health model of Ray Peat.
Perhaps if one is Hypothyroid for a very long time "adrenal fatigue" (if it exists) from high stress just numbs the Cortisol response (if this is correct), but than from this I really don't see how a person will be able to live and function without being sick and ridden with health problems.

 

[marsaday]

Isn't Hypothyroidism usually accompanied by other health problems such as HIGH Cortisol or Estrogen?

Estrogen is a problem in women and this is why more women have thyroid issues. It seems to be the issue with excess estrogen, but that may well be too simplistic.

Hypo thyroid patients tend to have lower cortisol, but the adrenals will take over helping the thyroid for a bit and so you could get excess cortisol. High/low cortisol give the same symptoms give or take.

 

[Frankdee20]

I would be interested to know whether a person's cortisol would rise as much in the morning if that person's free fatty acids stored were little to no polyunsaturates. Perhaps it is the extra polyunsaturate free fatty acids that are being liberated from the stored tissues.

Ray Peat once said that a doctor couldn't sleep and tried Cytomel resulting in a calm baby type sleep.

Deeper and more R. E. M. sleep would seem to be the result of enhancing thyroid and suppressing cortisol in the mornings.

Thyroid hormones often causes people insomnia .... and over stimulated feelings.... I don’t understand why this resulted in deeper sleep