Diurnal Cortisol Rhythm

javacody

Member
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
316
Age
50
I've been thinking a lot about what I've read about cortisol from a Ray Peat and followers perspective.

It sounds like a many Peaters think that cortisol should be as low as possible.

But I'm starting to think this is a mistaken belief, at least for me personally.

In a healthy human cortisol should be high in the morning and taper off by evening.

Further, in an obese human, cortisol is found to be high. But cortisol is released by the body to help lower inflammation. And the fat cells of most obese individuals are chronically inflamed. Lowering the cortisol in these people may actually be doing more harm than good. It makes more sense to go after the inflammation, then the body will tend to release less cortisol.

I think the problem many of us have is a diurnal cortisol rhythm, i.e. exactly the opposite of what a healthy human should have (in addition to high inflammation that drives high cortisol).

Personally, I'm a night owl. I think I have been since I was a teen. I've also struggled with weight, low energy, and lack of motivation in general.

I simply cannot sleep at night. When the sun comes up, I get the sleepiest.

And my experience with Peat recommended supplements to lower cortisol has shown me that they are effective and if I take them in the morning, I get even sleepier. I think not because I have a "cortisol based metabolism" but because I have a diurnal cortisol rhythm.

I think I can prove this by not taking any supplements that lower cortisol in the morning and only taking them a few hours before bedtime. (obviously, the only real way to prove this is to test salivary cortisol throughout the day, but I'm not giving a doctor any more of my damn money)

I also need to focus on things that raise my cortisol in the morning.

So for the former, that would be Niacinamide, B vitamins in general, etc.

For the latter, I've read that magnesium and boron have both been associated with raising cortisol levels (which is odd, considering magnesium helps people relax).

I know people recommend vitamin E to lower cortisol levels as well. But from a study I just read ([The effect of vitamin E on cortisol and lactate levels and on the acid-base equilibrium in calves exposed to transportation stress]. - PubMed - NCBI), it sounds like vitamin E may not actually lower cortisol but allow the body to bounce back to normal much more quickly after a physiologically stressful event. I'm hoping that daily vitamin E in the morning will help my body to lower cortisol at night.

Further, I've read that obese people, when given licorice to raise cortisol in the morning, lost weight. I wonder how much of obesity isn't just about raised cortisol, but more about a diurnal cortisol rhythm?

Lack of Cortisol characteristic for young obesity patients. Plus: Self-Esteem Changes During Puberty Would Actually Increase Diurnal Cortisol Production - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

I'm not a fan of licorice, though. Because the one thing it does better than raising cortisol is raising estrogen.

So dear friends, what do you think? Seems as though a gram or two of niacinamide in the evening + other B vitamins + aspirin would help to lower cortisol and help me sleep.

But what would you recommend to help me get back to that normal morning burst of cortisol?

The thing that prompted me to go down this line of thought is this article from Adel at Suppversity:

Take Control of Your Cortisol Levels - Use These 5x Stress-Modulating Diet, Lifestyle & Supplementation Rules Wisely - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
10,501
Peat says replace cortisol with thyroid. This is a key part of what he teaches. We need cortisol when thyroid becomes low.
 
OP
J

javacody

Member
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
316
Age
50
Peat says replace cortisol with thyroid. This is a key part of what he teaches. We need cortisol when thyroid becomes low.

This is a huge simplification of how cortisol works. We need cortisol in the morning to wake up. We also need cortisol to function. Without cortisol, we die. LITERALLY.

And based on your response, I'm guessing you didn't actually read my post. Because I very clearly show an understanding of what you just repeated. As it is repeated ad nauseum everywhere Ray Peat folks post on the internet.

Things in the body are nuanced. This black and white thinking (such as eliminate all cortisol or have a completely sterile colon) is inherently flawed. And this is not at all what I believe Ray Peat has ever said or suggested.

The situation of someone with obesity is different from someone who is skinny and always cold. Very, very different.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
10,501
This is a huge simplification of how cortisol works. We need cortisol in the morning to wake up. We also need cortisol to function. Without cortisol, we die. LITERALLY.

And based on your response, I'm guessing you didn't actually read my post. Because I very clearly show an understanding of what you just repeated. As it is repeated ad nauseum everywhere Ray Peat folks post on the internet.

Things in the body are nuanced. This black and white thinking (such as eliminate all cortisol or have a completely sterile colon) is inherently flawed. And this is not at all what I believe Ray Peat has ever said or suggested.

The situation of someone with obesity is different from someone who is skinny and always cold. Very, very different.

I read your post, lol. Everyone's cortisol peaks diurnally. Older people get worse and earlier peaks at night and before lunch.

Of course you can't just drop cortisol levels. It would kill you. I'm experimenting with this using l-theanine and when my cortisol drops I get cold. But it is a process of rebuilding metabolic rate from the depressed levels.

I am taking thyroid again for the third time and this time it is raising my temperatures when the other two times it did not.

Difference is I think I'm more pufa depleted now. Thyroid can step into the mix. For the first time in many years I'm 98 or higher during the daytime now. I feel warm and pleasantly sweaty much of the day. It's fantastic. Not easy getting here either.
 
OP
J

javacody

Member
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
316
Age
50
I read your post, lol. Everyone's cortisol peaks diurnally. Older people get worse and earlier peaks at night and before lunch.

Of course you can't just drop cortisol levels. It would kill you. I'm experimenting with this using l-theanine and when my cortisol drops I get cold. But it is a process of rebuilding metabolic rate from the depressed levels.

I am taking thyroid again for the third time and this time it is raising my temperatures when the other two times it did not.

Difference is I think I'm more pufa depleted now. Thyroid can step into the mix. For the first time in many years I'm 98 or higher during the daytime now. I feel warm and pleasantly sweaty much of the day. It's fantastic. Not easy getting here either.

So do you believe that the reason why the cortisol rhythm spikes more at night in older folks is because of pufa?
 

marsaday

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
481
Modern living does affect the cortisol curve, so it is important you change your actions to try and combat this. So make yourself go to bed early and rise early. It doesn't have to be super early, but the key is to get into a regular sleep / wake pattern. Don't go to bed in the week at differing times. Try stick to one time. I am always in bed by 11pm and read. So i usually get off to sleep between 11-12pm. I wake between 7-8am. This is my regular cycle and i am pretty sure it is good for me.

Niacin is good to help get off to sleep as it the amino acid tryptophan.

Boosting cortisol you can use pregnenalone or progesterone. I use progesterone and i am male. A lot of people say don't use it, but it works really well for me. I use the ProgestE oil which can be dosed in small amounts (1 drop = 3mg). As a male you only want to be using unto 3 drops per day. We make 20mg per day so i try and use as little as i can.

Saliva testing would be the best way forward to see where your cortisol levels are. Remember the relationship to cortisol and DHEA is actually the key to good health. You want it in the 4:1 ratio for best health. Many people have too high cortisol and too low DHEA. Just supplementing DHEA was not the answer for me. It was better for me to use progesterone which in turn breaks down into cortisol and then also spares DHEA from being converted into cortisol.

This lecture is a must watch:

He talks about fatter people not actually being unhealthy, but sick (from memory). Basically the hormone production/patterns are totally out of synch and so diet alone is not the way to get back on track. Certainly worth watching.

What is thyroid status like ? To me the thyroid is the master hormone and will affect many more hormones. It is the way to improve metabolism. I say this as a thyroid patient.
 

marsaday

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
481
Ps. You can alter the production of cortisol when you sleep by intervening mechanically with T3. This idea has been developed by Paul robinson in the UK.

We make thyroid at the beginning of the nights sleep (TSH highest when we go to bed). By about 4am the body now has its quota of thyroid made and so needs a matching quota of cortisol for the next day. The thyroid level will influence how much cortisol we make. We make cortisol in the second half of the night and it will peak so helping you wake up.

In your study fatter people will be making much less thyroid because their metabolisms are down graded. So cortisol production will be down graded. Thyroid and cortisol work closely together.

To influence cortisol production (if low) you can wake yourself up at about 6am and take a small amount of T3. This will artificially boost cortisol production. I have done it in the past and have the saliva results to prove it works. I don't need higher cortisol, but being a thyroid patient i tried this out when searching to improve health. IF you move the window when you take the T3 you will alter the cortisol boost (the earlier you go the more cortisol made). Also the amount of T3 taken will alter cortisol production. You will need to go low to start with mind you.
 

Collden

Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
630
I agree that one should strive to have high cortisol in the morning and low cortisol in the evening, this is the circadian cortisol pattern of healthy people, and cortisol seems to be an important driver of the overall circadian rhythm entrainment of the organism. Diabetes and depression and various other disease states are all associated with low morning cortisol levels.

I've been drinking a lot more coffee lately and noticed that pushing back the time for my last coffee later in the afternoon over time caused problems with sleep, digestion, anxiety, energy levels and brain fog. Today I tried just having the same amount of coffee but drinking it all before noon, the result was that I felt energized in the morning and much more relaxed in the afternoon with better digestion. I've noticed in the past that I can actually feel overall more releaxed on a day where I drink coffee at the right time (morning) than on a day where I dont have any coffee at all, perhaps properly timed caffeine can help you lock into a healthy circadian rhythm by increasing cortisol secretion at the right time.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom