Dissolving Bones For Calcium

[Travis]

Why did you choose that form?

It does have the phosphate ion, but I admit I hadn't thought too greatly about the Ca²⁺∶PO₄²⁻ ratio. But I do realize this is a bit more complex than the Na⁺∶K⁺ ratio because phosphate is used for things such as ATP, NADPH, and to phosphorylate proteins (which is usually considered primarily just for 'signalling,' but an experiment analyzing the subcellular distribution of membrane proteins indicated that the degree of phosphorylation determined the location in relation to the cell membrane; I think this lends support to my idea that protein phosphorylation is also a way to change the isoelectric point of the protein by adding negative charge, thereby changing it's location relative to the mitochondria and cell membrane—these having electric potentials of around −180·mV and −80·mV, respectively.)

 

[Amazoniac]

I often add a dash calcium phosphate powder to a pineapple smoothie, both the raise the pH

Phosphoric acid should decrease it, right? Making calcium carbonate a better option.
If you had one drink with calcium and other without, would you be able to tell the difference by taste?
I just want to let you know that fruits respect and fear your teeth regardless of their p and H.

 

[Travis]

I also think calcium ascorbate would be a pretty good source of calcium (and vitamin C).
It’s seems 10g of calcium ascorbate powder provides 1g of calcium (and approximately 9g vit C).
https://www.nutri.com/index.cfm/product/55/calcium-ascorbate-21-oz.cfm

That seems like the best one for most people; I think many Americans don't get as much vitamin C as they probably ought to.

Phosphoric acid should decrease it, right? Making calcium carbonate a better option.
If you had one drink with calcium and other without, would you be able to tell the difference by taste?
I just want to let you know that fruits respect and fear your teeth regardless of their p and H.

You would certainly be able to tell if you use a lot of calcium phosphate.. . ..You know that calcium taste. I made one just now with pineapple, a few juniper berries, banana, and a bit of that emerald green filtered kale juice I told you about. I'm really crazy about the pineapple right now because I've learned that it has at least two separate proteases—stem bromelain and fruit bromelain—and three chinitases: Type A, Type B, and Type C. So instead of buying bromelain tablets, I'm just blending-in the core sections as well (and that small piece of stem that comes with the pineapple; it's not as tough as you might think; the stem has the most enzymes). The stem apparently is the site of enzymatic synthesis, with these then diffusing into the fruit to be found there later—by Asian scientists—at lower concentrations. Enzymes are really neat if you think about it, and the extra chitinases and proteases in the pineapple can obviate the need for too much intestinal bacteria on account of most food now being broken down quite fine without them. And besides, pineapples are fun to look at.

I find the lower half to be really good eaten plain, but the upper halves are better sweetened with a banana (via blender) on account of their lower sugar content.

 

[Ron J]

That seems like the best one for most people; I think many Americans don't get as much vitamin C as they probably ought to.


You would certainly be able to tell if you use a lot of calcium phosphate.. . ..You know that calcium taste. I made one just now with pineapple, a few juniper berries, banana, and a bit of that emerald green filtered kale juice I told you about. I'm really crazy about the pineapple right now because I've learned that it has at least two separate proteases—stem bromelain and fruit bromelain—and three chinitases: Type A, Type B, and Type C. So instead of buying bromelain tablets, I'm just blending-in the core sections as well (and that small piece of stem that comes with the pineapple; it's not as tough as you might think; the stem has the most enzymes). The stem apparently is the site of enzymatic synthesis, with these then diffusing into the fruit to be found there later—by Asian scientists—at lower concentrations. Enzymes are really neat if you think about it, and the extra chitinases and proteases in the pineapple can obviate the need for too much intestinal bacteria on account of most food now being broken down quite fine without them. And besides, pineapples are fun to look at.

I find the lower half to be really good eaten plain, but the upper halves are better sweetened with a banana (via blender) on account of their lower sugar content.

Aren't you alarmed by the serotonin in pineapples and bananas?

 

[Travis]

Aren't you alarmed by the serotonin in pineapples and bananas?

Not in the concentrations found therein, and certainly not without having taken a monoamine oxidase inhibitor.

 

[Nighteyes]

But I always try to make sure such a thing is done before straining something acidic through a steel colander—to partially neutralize the acid—as otherwise you could get problematic Fe³⁺ and Ni²⁺ ions dissolving into the food/drink

Have you considered using a "nutmilk-bag" instead of a steel colander? This would eliminate the risk of metals being released into the juice...

 

[Travis]

Have you considered using a "nutmilk-bag" instead of a steel colander? This would eliminate the risk of metals being released into the juice...

This is true, and I do 'squeeze' the pulp anyway pressing it using another smaller colander which nests inside the bigger one.

This would be a good idea. I used to think that it would be neat having my own kitchen company that made things like silver-coated copper pans . . . and now I'm imaging colanders consisting of same would be even better for the people who use them. You could even coat them with the patented 'trace element alloy,' perhaps consisting of small amounts if zinc and cobalt in addition to the antibacterial silver. Although commonly thought of as a semi-noble and semiprecious metal, silver isn't all that expensive compared to ones such as palladium and iridium. It's powerful antibacterial effect is only approached by mercury, yet this lacks the specificity silver ions have and is nearly just as toxic to mammalian cells. I think this lack of specificity is why the 'thiol explanation' fails—what attempts to explain silver's antibacterial nature through its effect on thiol groups. Indisputably, mercury acts in this way; it has an unusual affinity for thiols with a higher binding constant than any other ion. But Ag⁺ does have its own peculiar binding affinities—and that is the DNA, believe-it-or-not. A person can find on Google Scholar dozens-if-not-hundreds of indications to this effect: spectroscopic data on the Ag⁺–DNA complex, binding affinity data, precipitation of DNA with Ag⁺ ion, and even fluorescent oligonucleotides being made having intent of selectively binding and detecting silver ions (quantitatively). Nothing binds DNA better than silver ions, intercolating between strands and holding them together. Although other ions do bind DNA, they do so at the phosphate backbone and do not effect replication. This mechanism also accounts for the specificity: Silver ions bind best at CpG islands having a high concentration of cytosine nucleotides, linking guanidine together with cytosine to form the inactivating complex; it largely leaves adenosine and thymine alone. Silver ions also bind more strongly to cytosine than to the related 5-methylcytosine, making the undermethylated bacterial DNA theoretically more vulnerable. This hypothesis is testable, and an in depth comparison could be conducted between silver resistant bacteria and the nucleic acid 5-methylcytosine concentration. Is there a better way to explain why silver is one of the least toxic ions for mammals and the single most toxic for bacteria? Yes there are, but I think explanations centered around DNA are the most realistic ones.

I suppose I shouldn't be so ferrophobic on account of not regularly eating heme iron, tubers, or even any nuts & seeds besides the coconut. Perhaps I'd be just as well with a few nano- to micrograms of iron being reduced (2e⁻) by vitamin C, liberated, and then chelated by citrate (or malate). The tricarboxylic acids appear to complex with trivalent cations (i.e. Fe³⁺, Al³⁺) the best; below is Sigma Aldrich's depiction of iron (III) citrate, next to the less-relevant yet more analogous and artful depiction of aluminum citrate:

​

They lack perspective (no wedge-bonds) but show why tricarboxylic acids—with their three negatively-charged carboxylate groups—chelate iron (III) and aluminum ions the best. In fruit juice, I think we'd have to assume that iron citrate would be the most energetically-favoured product. I see no difference between the iron found in colanders and than found in beets besides the ion's provinance, and assume they'd act identically once absorbed. However it still must be stressed that high iron diets would likely contribute to lipofuscin, something Brunk Terman had hinted at (they said they had proved it by experiment in their lipofuscin review articles, found below, but I hadn't read the experimental articles).

Terman & Brunk. "Lipofuscin." The international journal of biochemistry & cell biology (2004)
Brunk & Terman. "Lipofuscin: mechanisms of age-related accumulation and influence on cell function." Free Radical Biology and Medicine (2002)​

Of course oxygen concentration and the lipid's degree of unsaturation also increase the formation of lipofuscin, attenuated by antioxidants, but there is little we can do about these. The brain needs DHA (22∶4) to function properly, and membranes enriched with DPA (22∶5)—having merely one less double bond—instead fail to properly exclude sterols from brain membranes (grey matter); this causes profound psychological distress, as seen in the DHA-deficient Zellweger's syndrome. Having arachidonic acid (20∶4) in cell membranes is even worse, on more than one level.

Likewise, there is little we can do to lower brain O₂ concentration (although this could potentially give David Carradine a plausible denial in the afterlife for his embarrassing death ('It wasn't autoerotic asyphyxiation people, don't think that; I was merely trying to reduce lipofuscin formation.')). But even though we cannot lower our brain unsaturation index without losing approximately 30 IQ points (see any liposomal storage disease characterized by DHA deficiency), we still perhaps can lower brain fatty acid flux. The brain will uptake fatty acids from the circulation, and consuming large amounts of linoleic acid could potentially lead a slight shift of metabolssm towards fatty acids—away from glucose. So a high fat diet could still be risk factor in spite of DHA's ubiquitous nature, making ω−6 fatty acids the most damaging on at least two counts. But leaving aside the more speculative nature about how linoleic acid could contribute more to lipofuscin formation than the necessary and ubiquitous DHA, iron consumption can certainly be modified. I don't think it would be innaccurate to state that some humans consume 10× more than other humans, and also that most Americans are likely routinely consuming a fivefold excess over what could be considered ideal simply on account of the government-mandated fortification of flour.

Since I am probably in the lower 5% in terms of iron intake, then perhaps a little iron (III) citrate obtainedI via colander can be forgiven.

 

[cyclops]

I personally wouldn’t take calcium carbonate without first turning it into a salt (reacting it with an acid). But that’s got more to do with me wanting keeping my stomach naturally acidic as much as possible.

Peat seems to have some negative things to say about calcium citrate here. Not sure if this is the same as mixing calcium carbonate with lemon juice though...

 

[Ron J]

Not in the concentrations found therein, and certainly not without having taken a monoamine oxidase inhibitor.

I thought it was quite significant and can lead to an increase of serotonin. Also, haidut wrote this:

I don't think these provide nearly as much serotonin as the one produced in the gut. So, I doubt they will make anybody fat due to their serotonin content

Also, what do you think about neutralizing calcium with citric acid/vinegar? According to Peat, citrate can be bad, so is there any other option?
Edit: haidut's answer was to this comment: "Sorry, kind of off subject lol, but what is supposed to happen as I eat lots of fresh delicious pineapple... and plantain (fried in coco oil and spinkeled w sugar and cinamon)?"

 

[Travis]

I thought it was quite significant and can lead to an increase of serotonin. Also, haidut wrote this:

The reason why serotonin itself isn't simply given to increase brain serotonin is that it is reliably oxidized by ubiquitous monamine oxidase, then excreted rapidly in the urine as 5-OH-indole acetic acid. Dietary tryptophan, however, is not a substrate of MAO. Besides being an essential amino acid used for protein synthesis, tryptophan is the only significant precursor for brain serotonin. On account of these two physiological observations, it is exclusively tryptophan and its congeners—and not serotonin itself—that is commonly given with intent to increase brain serotonin. Therefore worrying about increased brain serotonin from pineapples is somewhat irrational on account of it's modest Fernstrom ratio (Trp/Σ·CAA), irregardless of its higher-than-average serotonin concentration.

 

[mayweatherking]

use beef oxtail for gelatin not bones, the bones have toxic metals in it brochacho

 

[Ron J]

The reason why serotonin itself isn't simply given to increase brain serotonin is that it is reliably oxidized by ubiquitous monamine oxidase, then excreted rapidly in the urine as 5-OH-indole acetic acid. Dietary tryptophan, however, is not a substrate of MAO. Besides being an essential amino acid used for protein synthesis, tryptophan is the only significant precursor for brain serotonin. On account of these two physiological observations, it is exclusively tryptophan and its congeners—and not serotonin itself—that is commonly given with intent to increase brain serotonin. Therefore worrying about increased brain serotonin from pineapples is somewhat irrational on account of it's modest Fernstrom ratio (Trp/Σ·CAA), irregardless of its higher-than-average serotonin concentration.

I might add some bananas then.
If I want to make calcium less alkalizing(other than calcium citrate), what do you think about calcium acetate? Or is there a better option? I don't think Ray Peat has mentioned the aceate version.

 

[cyclops]

use beef oxtail for gelatin not bones, the bones have toxic metals in it brochacho

Oxtail has bones in the middle though, so wouldn't it just matter how long you cook it. I like to use beef feet. I get mad gelatin from it.

 

[mayweatherking]

Oxtail has bones in the middle though, so wouldn't it just matter how long you cook it. I like to use beef feet. I get mad gelatin from it.

u boil it a shorter period of time than you would bones, like 2 or 3 hrs versus 10 or 12 hrs for bones

 

[Ron J]

Since I get citric acid from orange juice, would making calcium citrate with it be the same as consuming calcium carbonate and the same amount of citric acid from oj? Or is calcium citrate more detrimental than citric acid by itself?

 

[Travis]

I might add some bananas then.
If I want to make calcium less alkalizing(other than calcium citrate), what do you think about calcium acetate? Or is there a better option? I don't think Ray Peat has mentioned the aceate version.

I suppose with calcium we do have quite a bit of options, but I haven't put much thought into what organic acid it's complexed with (malic, citric, or acetic). I suppose a person might expect that thee acetate would be most absorbable since the Ca²⁺ would be less-tightly bound than in the other forms. I don't really think the organic acid that Ca²⁺ is bound too would have all that much effect overall because I don't think it would contribute much to the dietary total. I would expect fruit to have much higher levels of organic acids than would a calcium pill (or powder)—so I don't think it would really matter too much which one is used. If I had to make a choice, I think I might go with calcium citrate based simply on flavor.

 

[Glassy]

If you took a bottle of very cold carbonated water and poured in calcium carbonate before capping and shaking vigorously, you should get a clear solution of calcium bicarbonate in a few hours. Both the calcium and bicarbonate would be in their ionic form and any calcium carbonate that didn’t react would precipitate and sink to the bottom.

This dude makes a similar concentrated bicarbonate solution with magnesium hydroxide (milk of magnesium), calcium carbonate, potassium carbonate and carbonated water with sodium bicarbonate. He then dilutes it and takes it as a type of mineralised water. The dissolved CO2 reacts with the carbonate particles in the mixture.

I know @Dan Wich used to make a similar solution with magnesium carbonate - not sure if he ever experimented with other minerals?

 

[cyclops]

If you took a bottle of very cold carbonated water and poured in calcium carbonate before capping and shaking vigorously, you should get a clear solution of calcium bicarbonate in a few hours. Both the calcium and bicarbonate would be in their ionic form and any calcium carbonate that didn’t react would precipitate and sink to the bottom.

This dude makes a similar concentrated bicarbonate solution with magnesium hydroxide (milk of magnesium), calcium carbonate, potassium carbonate and carbonated water with sodium bicarbonate. He then dilutes it and takes it as a type of mineralised water. The dissolved CO2 reacts with the carbonate particles in the mixture.

I been doing exactly this with magnesium to make magnesium bicarbonate for quite some time. I did not know you could just throw whatever other minerals you want in there. I guess I'll throw the calcium in it as well and kill two birds.

 

[Glassy]

I been doing exactly this with magnesium to make magnesium bicarbonate for quite some time. I did not know you could just throw whatever other minerals you want in there. I guess I'll throw the calcium in it as well and kill two birds.

Yeah I was looking into making magnesium bicarbonate and then wondered if you could do the same with other carbonates. There is only so much CO2 dissolved in the carbonated water to react with the mineral carbonates. As far as I know carbonates don’t dissolve readily in water (why it’s cloudy and eventually settles to the bottom). This is the video I meant to link to:



I need to look into why Peat might be anti citric acid/citrate. Citric acid is present in all citrus but less in the fully ripened fruit. You get a citrate salt when you neutralise citric acid with a base or a carbonate (ingesting citric acid will result in citrate).

 

[Wagner83]

The reason why u itself isn't simply given to increase brain serotonin is that it is reliably oxidized by ubiquitous monamine oxidase, then excreted rapidly in the urine as 5-OH-indole acetic acid. Dietary tryptophan, however, is not a substrate of MAO. Besides being an essential amino acid used for protein synthesis, tryptophan is the only significant precursor for brain serotonin. On account of these two physiological observations, it is exclusively tryptophan and its congeners—and not serotonin itself—that is commonly given with intent to increase brain serotonin. Therefore worrying about increased brain serotonin from pineapples is somewhat irrational on account of it's modest Fernstrom ratio (Trp/Σ·CAA), irregardless of its higher-than-average serotonin concentration.

Do you think it could still have an effect in the gut and on digestion before it's oxidized? E. G. stimulating expelling powers.


Wouldn't taking mao inhibitors along with dietary serotonin be a very bad idea? (MB?)

Edit: I just saw you already answered the second one in the thread.