Dissociative Disorders (Depersonalization/Derealization, Etc)

Parsifal

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Interesting article: Donna Williams: The Spectrum of Dissociative Disorders

Okay, lately I've been thinking that I have always been suffering from this type of problem with ups and downs.

I've long thought that most of my problems might be a slight autism but now I think that it was mainly hypothyroidism since birth and dissociative disorder.

My depression/anhedonia/abulia/apathy since childhood also seems to be related to that. Even with high temps and taking thyroid, trying to reduce serotonin, taking B1, etc, I often feel slightly dissociated (even if it improved a bit), not really here or able to respond to external and/or internal world.

What could be causing this?
 

Dopamine

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I think endorphin/opioid activity has something to do with it.

Naltrexone (opioid antagonist) has been used to treat dissociation.
[Low dose naltrexone in the treatment of dissociative symptoms]. - PubMed - NCBI

Estrogen increases endorphin activity, progesterone opposes it.

"Estrogen's effects in the nervous system go beyond the production of cocaine-like hypomania, or chorea, or epilepsy, and include the activation of the basic stress hormones, increasing the formation in the hypothalamus of pro-opiomelanocortin (POMC), which is a precursor of ACTH to activate the adrenals, and endorphins ("endogenous opiates"), which stimulate growth processes." -Ray Peat
 

PakPik

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Hi Parsifal,
I've suffered from depersonalization since I was a little kid. Decades later it got worse and worse, to the point of extreme suffering, and even started having seizures (all related). My health was always poor and I now know my neurological problems were just part of my whole ill health. In my case, depersonalization was a problem of: vascular/inflammatory issues in the brain, like pretty bad circulation, and hypermethylation problems (hypermethylation gets the brain stuck in hibernation mode, paralyses). There're are tons of factors that can generate those vascular/inflammatory problems and hypermethylation, I think the key is to identify them; sometimes even hypermethylation can come from prenatal imprinting. In any case, I'm amazed that my depersonalization has improved in parallel with improving my vascular issues and supporting demethylating measures (niacinamide is an amazing one, and it has been successfully used to cure PTSD, schizophrenia, and related problems). You've mentioned before having vascular issues, so maybe would be worth paying attention to that as well.

All the best :)
 
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Parsifal

Parsifal

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I think endorphin/opioid activity has something to do with it.

Naltrexone (opioid antagonist) has been used to treat dissociation.
[Low dose naltrexone in the treatment of dissociative symptoms]. - PubMed - NCBI

Estrogen increases endorphin activity, progesterone opposes it.

"Estrogen's effects in the nervous system go beyond the production of cocaine-like hypomania, or chorea, or epilepsy, and include the activation of the basic stress hormones, increasing the formation in the hypothalamus of pro-opiomelanocortin (POMC), which is a precursor of ACTH to activate the adrenals, and endorphins ("endogenous opiates"), which stimulate growth processes." -Ray Peat
Very interesting! Thanks!

I'm doing everything I can for lowering estrogen but seems that's not enough... Might explain my anhedonia also.
 
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Parsifal

Parsifal

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Hi Parsifal,
I've suffered from depersonalization since I was a little kid. Decades later it got worse and worse, to the point of extreme suffering, and even started having seizures (all related). My health was always poor and I now know my neurological problems were just part of my whole ill health. In my case, depersonalization was a problem of: vascular/inflammatory issues in the brain, like pretty bad circulation, and hypermethylation problems (hypermethylation gets the brain stuck in hibernation mode, paralyses). There're are tons of factors that can generate those vascular/inflammatory problems and hypermethylation, I think the key is to identify them; sometimes even hypermethylation can come from prenatal imprinting. In any case, I'm amazed that my depersonalization has improved in parallel with improving my vascular issues and supporting demethylating measures (niacinamide is an amazing one, and it has been successfully used to cure PTSD, schizophrenia, and related problems). You've mentioned before having vascular issues, so maybe would be worth paying attention to that as well.

All the best :)
Where there tetany seizures? If yes, I've suffered a lot of it before Peating... Very interesting, since taking Lysine (reducing NO) it improved... I think that carbon dioxyde might help.
How much niacinamide are we talking about?
 

Greg says

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Yes, dissociating is addictive. It causes a certain amount of contentment. I think it is a form of self- medicating, releasing internal opioids. This concept is new to me and I am now aware I have lived in a dissociative state all my life (a way to avoid pain and the inner critic). I totally live in a fantasy world, daydreaming, wishing, watching movies etc. It's another trauma response; Freeze [the others of course are fight, flight, fawn]. It has been said that schizophrenic are people who have dissociated so far they cannot find their way back. So you could say dissociation disorder is just another symptom of trauma (usually some kind of abandonment).

There is a term, 'the map doesn't match the territory'. Meaning the further your thoughts are from reality the more 'insane' you will be.

I think this is why Tianeptine helps me. It's not the serotonin reducing effect but the mild opioid effect. I am using lysine at the mo which is taking care of serotonin but I still have a feeling of learned helplessness and dissociation. With Tianeptine I don't, or at least not so bad.

I remember seeing a psychoanalyst for panic attacks as a younger man and he told me I was 'Habituated to thinking the worst case scenario and the inevitability of the worst case scenario causing brain crashes (derealisation).'
 
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Makrosky

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Yes, dissociating is addictive. It causes a certain amount of contentment. I think it is a form of self- medicating, releasing internal opioids. This concept is new to me and I am now aware I have lived in a dissociative state all my life (a way to avoid pain and the inner critic). I totally live in a fantasy world, daydreaming, wishing, watching movies etc. It's another trauma response; Freeze [the others of course are fight, flight, fawn]. It has been said that schizophrenic are people who have dissociated so far they cannot find their way back. So you could say dissociation disorder is just another symptom of trauma (usually some kind of abandonment).

There is a term, 'the map doesn't match the territory'. Meaning the further your thoughts are from reality the more 'insane' you will be.

I think this is why Tianeptine helps me. It's not the serotonin reducing effect but the mild opioid effect. I am using lysine at the mo which is taking care of serotonin but I still have a feeling of learned helplessness and dissociation. With Tianeptine I don't, or at least not so bad.

I remember seeing a psychoanalyst for panic attacks as a younger man and he told me I was 'Habituated to thinking the worst case scenario and the inevitability of the worst case scenario causing brain crashes (derealisation).'
Hey Buddy! I think there's one worse thing : not having any fantasy, any daydream, any "stupid" wish. That can be very bad. Like a psychic desert. You should be glad you have fantasies. "Hey boy, shut up and stop day dreaming. Get a job, get a mortgage and be careful the winds of freedom don't mess up your perfect hair."
 

PeatThemAll

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What has worked for you regarding behavior-based solutions?

I do realize that dissociation/derealization is a response to excess stress, until one finds/develops new habits to better adapt/process the incoming and move back to the more balanced (integrated) state.

For now, I focus on behavioral modification (CBT) because this is one of the few ways my brain finally lets go of a stressor, when it sees a real, visible result. For example tidying up my workspace. The clutter is a mental and emotional drain (visually nagging) until I've put it back in order (5S system). I can "think" about the problem all I want, nothing chages inside until I've completed that task.

This works great on the stuff level. Still trying to find a way to make it more real (integrated, with real-life proof) for the business/school/inner life part. I started journaling (on paper). Takes care of the overload feeling, but never "sparks joy" (hat tip to Marie Kondo).
 

Dopamine

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I actually think dissociation is a coping mechanism for intense anxiety or maybe fear/phobias. I have experienced it sometimes.

Anhedonia is characteristic of drug withdrawals but I think a big cause for many people is too much masturbation and/or porn "Freud suggested to Fliess in 1897 that addictions, including that to tobacco, were substitutes for masturbation, "the one great habit." Basically you get sooo much pleasure from one particular activity in your life that everything else seems bleak and grey in comparison.

Here is an explanation I found interesting though I haven't double checked the accuracy of it:

"Each time you masturbate, you get a dopamine surge in a particular section of your brain called the Nucleus Accumbens. This surge is also supposed to happen to one degree or another when you socialize or eat or perform other tasks that you enjoy like hobbies. This is the brains way of rewarding you for doing things. As you repeat these behaviors, the pathways in your brain associated with these behaviors become reinforced. Delta-FosB is responsible for this reinforcement. Repeating the behavior too frequently can cause buildup of Delta-FosB in your brain.

When it rises to the level of an addiction, the levels of Delta-FosB in your brain have reached a point where the addictive behavior is directing your behavior into the addiction by washing out the dopamine response to any other activity. Other activities don't appeal to you anymore. So the only real high you get is from that one activity. Which of course means that when given the choice of behaviors, you're going to pick the one that gives you the best surge. Take out the garbage or masturbate? Go hang with friends or masturbate?

The reboot period that people talk about is the time it takes the levels of Delta-FosB in your brain to drop to normal levels. Delta-FosB is a protein and once it's in there, it can take a while to wash out. New patterns are harder to create and maintain when the Delta-FosB level is too high. It's also harder to undo the addicted patterns until the Delta-FosB drops to normal levels.

Each repetition during the reboot period brings your levels back up again and will extend the length of time it takes to reboot.
It takes approximately two weeks of avoiding the addiction for the dopamine levels associated with the addiction to drop to normal. It can take 6-8 weeks or even longer for the Delta-FosB levels to normalize. This correlates with most of the anecdotes that you'll see here as far as timing goes.

The flatline that people talk about is after the dopamine drop off but before the Delta-FosB drops off. Basically the brain is so used to that one source of the surge of dopamine that once the addicted behavior is no longer available there are no other sources of that surge. No activity produces the surge of dopamine because the other pathways simply don't provide the rush that you're used to and so don't notice it when it happens.

Hypothetically you could shorten the period of flatline by seeking out other activities to engage in and forging new pathways, but during the flatline period there's a lack of motivation to do anything at all, so it's difficult. New pathways will form on their own eventually, so you can wait it out if you can't will yourself to try new things.

So to answer your question, If your habit has reached the level of addiction then anything that follows that path will reinforce the addiction and will delay the recovery by first keeping the dopamine fapping pathways high and secondly preventing the drop off of Delta-FosB. Ideally you want to refrain from anything that will reinforce that pathway in your brain. Which in this case is any part of PMO(Porn/Masturbation/orgasm)." -Random person from r/nofap
 

oolongmonkey

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Feb 18, 2017
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Hi Parsifal,
I've suffered from depersonalization since I was a little kid. Decades later it got worse and worse, to the point of extreme suffering, and even started having seizures (all related). My health was always poor and I now know my neurological problems were just part of my whole ill health. In my case, depersonalization was a problem of: vascular/inflammatory issues in the brain, like pretty bad circulation, and hypermethylation problems (hypermethylation gets the brain stuck in hibernation mode, paralyses). There're are tons of factors that can generate those vascular/inflammatory problems and hypermethylation, I think the key is to identify them; sometimes even hypermethylation can come from prenatal imprinting. In any case, I'm amazed that my depersonalization has improved in parallel with improving my vascular issues and supporting demethylating measures (niacinamide is an amazing one, and it has been successfully used to cure PTSD, schizophrenia, and related problems). You've mentioned before having vascular issues, so maybe would be worth paying attention to that as well.

All the best :)
How did you improve your vascular issues?
 

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