Discussion: What principles of "Ray Peatism" makes sense most, which ones make sense least?

Gustav3Y

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In an interview he said he knew a male who was an ex-alcoholic who took around a tablespoon a day for his whole life after he recommended it
Oral Progesterone Increases Testosterone And DHT


This rodent study shows that a hefty oral dose of progesterone stimulated synthesis of and elevated the levels of both testosterone and DHT. It seems that if progesterone has any negative effects on male steroids it requires dosages higher than the ones used in the study. Speaking of dosages, the human equivalent dose was 5.7mg/kg, so this means a range of 450mg - 600mg for most people.

Humans take such doses of progesterone consistently and feel good? Aren't high level of progesterone contraceptive anyway for females?

Notice that you will see doses of 100mg and 200mg of progesterone for transgenders, but then they are also on estradiol and other anti-androgens so I am not sure how much it matters hot much they take, but surely it is taken for feminization purposes (weather it is actually working as such or not in practice).
 
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Progesterone can be a contraceptive, but not abortive. Estrogen, on the other hand, is abortive. People usually refer to the birth control pill as a contraceptive when it contains a lot of estrogen in it.
 

Charger

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Notice that you will see doses of 100mg and 200mg of progesterone for transgenders, but then they are also on estradiol and other anti-androgens so I am not sure how much it matters hot much they take, but surely it is taken for feminization purposes (weather it is actually working as such or not in practice).

The idea that progesterone is androgenic in males is one of the most misleading things I've read on this forum.
 

Gustav3Y

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Progesterone can be a contraceptive, but not abortive. Estrogen, on the other hand, is abortive. People usually refer to the birth control pill as a contraceptive when it contains a lot of estrogen in it.
Definitely I was not thinking of progesterone as abortive, contraceptive in high doses in non pregnant females, since so many progestins are given without even estradiol as contraceptive, progestins work well as they can be intellectually owned as far as I understand.
Definitely today seems progestins+estradiol are more popular as branded products as contraceptive
 

Gustav3Y

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BTW how can some feel on 600mg of Progesterone as recommended as a male? Sleepy? I am curious.
For a female I would assume that is getting into contraceptive levels (non-abortive)
 

Gustav3Y

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I'm a transsexual and I can confirm that rectal P4 of 200mg dramatically improved how my face looks. It got rid of my acne and made me look years younger. You don't need spiro or another anti androgen if you are doing E2 injections and P4 rectally. I am seeing if my doctor will prescribe more Progesterone,where did you get the 300-400 mg number? I think most take 200mg.

Quote from another thread
 

meatbag

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Humans take such doses of progesterone consistently and feel good? Aren't high level of progesterone contraceptive anyway for females?

Notice that you will see doses of 100mg and 200mg of progesterone for transgenders, but then they are also on estradiol and other anti-androgens so I am not sure how much it matters hot much they take, but surely it is taken for feminization purposes (weather it is actually working as such or not in practice).
children of both genders have very high levels of proesterone, the development of the distinctive secondary sexual characteristics isn't driven by progesterone
 

SonOfEurope

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I haven't read a lot of Ray's work, so I can't say how much he actually promotes it, but I've heard it recommended by his followers enough to assume it's something he emphasizes as beneficial. I've heard him recommend it here and there in some of Roddy's podcasts for various reasons.

I'm not sure if you could even call it one of his 'principles', but Progesterone from a male perspective is the most confusing neurosteroid/hormone for me to understand. Some users here such as @SonOfEurope almost literally bathe in the stuff and claim to be fine, whereas @Hans has never encouraged more than small doses of 1-3mg in males. Trying to replicate the dosages SonOfEurope was using was rapidly feminizing in my case and also feels very similar to Finasteride in high doses, yet @haidut claims it doesn't inhibit 5AR.

What I want to understand is what elevated Progesterone in bloodwork would imply for a male? What lowers Progesterone or 'uses it up'? What would be the most effective option for doing so? What determines whether or not it's feminizing in one male to another? Progesterone is weird, bruh.

Well... The 14 mg I do now is not really bathing in the stuff, I used twice the dose for 2 years to come off some nasty stuff, it was sedating, though not anti androgenic in my case, with plenty of calcium, some DHEA, the main thing is that it doesn't reduce testosterone (Some progesterone is crucial in men to oppose estrogen as a compliment to Androgens, male gonads themselves produce and need P4).

Progesterone is Similar to testosterone but with much less Affinity for androgen receptors, so in very high amounts it competes with testosterone for 5-Alpha and does not feminize, but antagonize Strong Peripheral Masculinization in a "Neotenic" way - it drops both DHT and Estrogen (The two strongest Sexual Hormones ) in favour of youthfulness.

You don't need to supplement progesterone... I do agree that if anything weekly pregnenolone is better unless you're trying to heal from something faster - but you do not want reduce your natural progesterone production since its one the most crucial substances to life, brain and nervous system health, opposition to both excess E2 and adrenal Androgens, it adds to Testosterone's Anabolic properties in a youthful way.... You need progesterone for proper brain function (Gaba-related neurosteroids).

Femininity, or what we understand as feminine characteristics, are the result of a very low Testosterone production, large concentrations of progesterone and the Estrogen spike in the menstrual cycle, breasts, fat deposition in the legs, wider hips etc, are all caused by E2 but that's why women produce more progesterone - for the protective actions it holds against the needed Estrogen's proliferative nature.

So for "Feminity" You need low androgens, estrogen spikes as in a female menstrual cycle with huge progesterone production to be feminized, the issue of hormones and masculinity vs femininity is very complex and Progesterone cannot be called a purely female hormone since its needed in both genders for optimal health, the massive amounts that females produce compared to men results as a need for protection from the higher estrogen they also require (in bursts ) for their reproductive nature.

Higher progesterone in a man on a test is perfectly fine as long as Testosterone is also OK, DHT, and everything in the context of that particular man feeling well, if there is an underlying issue... The progesterone might be elevated as a protective mechanism from estrigenic overload, as can DHT be elevated for that same reason... I've read that quite a few balding guys come up with tests that show both DHT and progesterone in the higher range, fixing underlying metabolic issues such as lowering stress that can be avoided, diet, light, healing the liver and lowering BF% should come first.
 

Gustav3Y

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Progesterone in females has a direct actual reproduction purpose monthly and during pregnancy, it has no reproduction purpose in men.
 

schultz

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It doesn't "feel" logical considering its in nature in so many foods wether it is nuts, meat, fish or w/e.

Plants use these fats more depending on their location and climate. If it's colder they might need a fat that is more liquid at colder temperatures. But we are mammals who have a consistently warm body. If we were living and eating foods near the equator they would likely have much less PUFA. Like macadamia nuts have only 2% PUFA, lower than butter.

Nature doesn't exist to sustain humans in a perfect way. I think people are confused by this, as if everything in nature must be absolutely perfect for our health because it's natural. PUFA exist in nature, so they must not be terrible for us. Why? The world is not perfect. Or it is perfect, but only in certain situations adaptively (when a cold water fish needs a more liquid fat).

Chickens, and many other animals, can have very low PUFA depending on their diet. In tropical countries they can have 2 or 3% PUFA from eating coconut and such. Although some animals use PUFA to go into hibernation, so it serves that purpose. (we don't hibernate and are probably meant to live in warmer climates)

The thing that resonates with me the best is the emphasis on the mitochondria and getting oxidative phosphorylation running smoothly again, therefore producing plenty of ATP.

The things that resonate least with me is the absolute PUFA / EFA demonization and that melatonin / darkness is bad at night.

There is a direct relationship with amount of PUFA consumed and mitochondrial function. Animals on a very low PUFA diet have massively increased mitochondrial function, so much so that even alcohol doesn't affect them in some ways nearly as much.

Ray is very clear that, for the most part, men should not take progesterone due to its feminizing effects.

I've not heard him say men shouldn't take it, though I've heard him discourage using it in high doses for men. I believe Ray takes progesterone, and probably has for years (I don't know for sure)

Notice that you will see doses of 100mg and 200mg of progesterone for transgenders

The type of product can determine what amount is actually being absorbed. Most progesterone products are terrible. I've seen a lot of them with water in the formula and Ray says that progesterone is incredibly lipophilic and if water is present the progesterone will crystallize out of solution. He said it's barely soluble in oil. If you have an oil product you'd want to heat it up before using it to redissolve the progesterone. Vitamin E, in specific amounts and without other additives, works very well as a solvent.

Because of this solubility problem, it's hard to determine how much progesterone people are actually getting when they say they are taking "X" amount. The same logic applies to studies using progesterone (if they are actually even using real progesterone)
 

Ben.

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Plants use these fats more depending on their location and climate. If it's colder they might need a fat that is more liquid at colder temperatures. But we are mammals who have a consistently warm body. If we were living and eating foods near the equator they would likely have much less PUFA. Like macadamia nuts have only 2% PUFA, lower than butter.

Chickens, and many other animals, can have very low PUFA depending on their diet. In tropical countries they can have 2 or 3% PUFA from eating coconut and such. Although some animals use PUFA to go into hibernation, so it serves that purpose. (we don't hibernate and are probably meant to live in warmer climates)

I am not denying that industrial products and proccessed foods loaded with PUFA is a huge problem. But does that automaticly equate to all PUFAs or EFAs not playing a role in our bodys? Not even our health? Why or how is it that our brain is rich in omega 3 fatty acids? Why would it accumulate there? So it is more protected in colder environments to transmit or release energy/cell respiration? For emergency? On the same note PUFAs are problematic due to their unstability heat and likelyhood of oxidation, wouldn't this make it a double edged source for the brain?

I know omega 3s have been discussed here very often and its benefits are said to be due to short term interactions as an antioxidant sort of, but ends up causing trouble long term as the bodys cell membranes made up of PUFAS are problematic in general especially when it is the bulk of our cells due to the western diet/food supply.

But i tried to understand it from a pre industrial time where mostly saturad fats (from animals) were used, right? Lard, Beef Tallow, Butter, Ghee etc.
At this time that very animal fat was THE source of PUFAs besides maybe whole food nuts/seeds (which can't be just devil food, this is such a reductionist way of looking at our body, its complex biologicial processes and interactions of our food).

Even if we derive the food from species appropiate fed animals, or coconut (unprocessed) or cocoa, we will still have some PUFA in there. The world is not PUFA free which is why i can't "shake" the feeling off that it is just "dangerous/unhealthy".

Lets not even talk about peoples anecdotal experience who acquired health benefits from it. Studies on this subject are contradicting too.

I came acroos one thread on this forum where it was recommended to "deplete" PUFAs here but on the same note it is also said that "some" consumption of PUFA instantly makes the effort of depletion useless ... what the hell? I guess some take it a little to far and get pathological fears of food?

Nature doesn't exist to sustain humans in a perfect way. I think people are confused by this, as if everything in nature must be absolutely perfect for our health because it's natural. PUFA exist in nature, so they must not be terrible for us. Why? The world is not perfect. Or it is perfect, but only in certain situations adaptively (when a cold water fish needs a more liquid fat).

Ideal environments only exists for thoose organism who adapted the best towards it. And to assume solely on our body temperature that this faty type of acid present everywhere is purely toxic just doesn't seem right.

Didn't Inuits develop a effective gene to turn fats into glucose since their diet for very long depends on fatty coldwater fish? They also live in colder climates so they can make use of the these fatty acids better can't they? On the other hand they wear thick cloth and are still "warm blooded" animals ... Bears hibernate but in essence theyr blood is warm too isnt it? But they eat alot of fish too? Why wouldn't non Inuits not also have develeoped some mechanism or genes or w/e to deal with "some PUFA" in their diet if we assume that it was always there?

Bears go into torpor, which should not be confused with the deep hibernation of smaller mammals such as hedgehogs and marmots. During hibernation, the marmot reduces its metabolic rate to a tenth of its normal level: it breathes only once or twice per minute and its heart beats a maximum five times. Its body temperature drops to only three degrees Celcius.
The bear, on the other hand, reduces its circulation, breathing and heartbeat only to a level at which it is able to defend its den at any time. If it were to reduce the temperature of its heavy body, which weighs several hundred kilogrammes, to three degrees Celsius, it would be unable to 'get into gear' without an external energy source. The exact manner in which it manages its energy balance, the shape of its temperature curves and its restricted kidney function – this all largely remains a mystery.
These questions are of great interest to human medicine. Taking into account that bears lie around for weeks without suffering a breakdown of bone or muscle mass, nor does the skin develop sores, a link can be made to one of the biggest challenges faced by geriatric medicine. And while kidney patients often need life-long dialysis, the bear can seemingly switch its kidney function 'on and off' when necessary.

As the bear enters hibernation, its metabolic processes such as body temperature, heart rate, and respiratory rate are reduced. But bears do not lower the body temperature as much as once thought. Their hibernation temperature is around 88 degrees and waking temperature is 100 degrees F. This relatively high sleeping temperature allows black bears to become fully alert if aroused, perhaps to enable the bear to protect itself from predators and other dangers without unnecessarily taxing their energy reserves. Over the course of a hibernating season it is thought that black bears use approximately 4 thousand calories a day, which results in a weight loss of about 20 percent of it body weight by spring.

Idk if i cherry picked an animal here but im still not 100 percent convinced.
I see ray peats work here as an way to appreaciate saturated fats rather than as an argument to avoid something that is in our "natural" food.


Im not advocating for PUFA diets and i see the benefits of reducing it. I like what Mrchibbs said about it:

I do think there is more to the EFA/B6 story than we understand at this point, and Edwards J. Edmonds (The Last Breath - In the end, you will suffocate to death. The work of Edward J Edmonds.)
is exploring this topic on his excellent blog.

I don't think they're a poison. It should just be lowered. It's a matter of context, just like for vitamin A.
I think the evidence is obvious that they wreck havoc in times of stress, and are susceptible to lipid peroxidation.
That's why for the rest of my life, I'll take some aspirin and vitamin E to prevent those things.

Foods like eggs and shellfish are so important to my health, and contain PUFAs. So I try not to worry about it. Plus, as I've alluded to, there is *some* evidence that we don't fully understand EFA so well.

But the vegetable/seed oils are totally useless and dangerous. They're just straight PUFAs with no redeeming qualities.
Basically, avoid those things, and reach a good enough balance in your diet/tissues so that your body temperature gets to the optimal levels.
(Body temperature is basically determined by the composition of fats in our tissues).
 
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Progesterone in females has a direct actual reproduction purpose monthly and during pregnancy, it has no reproduction purpose in men.
If it can hinder the toxic effects of estrogen that in and of itself can be an indirect way in which it can improve reproductive capacity in males sometimes, I would guess.

Another way to argue it could be that essentially anything that can improve or fix something amiss can be considered an indirect "reproduction purpose" or benefit at least.

I mean I know some guys here claim it's "feminizing" while others say "masculinizing" but what these terms mean differ slightly between every individual anyways, so it's tough to really determine what the effects are if everyone has a different sense of what they feel is feminizing or masculinizing them, at least based on experience, circumstance and etc. I've used it in small doses and it did not seem neither feminizing nor masculinizing to me, so individual perception + experience could dictate perception of something's immediate effects more so than what a fine biochemical layout would insist, along with some understanding of said variables taking place in one.
 
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Gustav3Y

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@ScurveDream
I was not talking about supplemental progesterone to help with x issue, reducing estogens in theory can be done by many ways (from vitamins, to thyroid to no stress no toxins, etc), so then progesterone is not the one solution to reducing estrogen.

There are indeed males with very high androgens that have that due to non-classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia, which usually have high 17hydroxyprogeterone and mostly crushed cortisol levels. I've actually seen such people, which they claimed to have this issue, I heard them complaining about sexual issues, oily skin and acnee.
This condition can be associated with impaired spermatogenesis, even if androgens are high.
 
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Cameron

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Title self explanatory. I think his emphasis on importance of carbs and saturated fats on hormonal and metabolic health makes sense most. (Dangers of seretonin is another sound topic) Orange juice (histamine liberator, possibly irritant) and overlooking the "possible" problems with dairy is the one that satisfies my mind the least. What are your toughts on Ray Peat's ideas, "principles"? What principles of "Ray Peatism" makes sense most, which ones make sense least to you guys?
I’d say the importance of eating regularly calcium and protein and saturated fat and eating animals, roots, fruits, and finding a very good dairy. The problems would be reducing red meat I think meat and fat is very important and if you watch your calories you can eat fat protein and carbs without getting fat. IMO of course
 

meatbag

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I am not denying that industrial products and proccessed foods loaded with PUFA is a huge problem. But does that automaticly equate to all PUFAs or EFAs not playing a role in our bodys? Not even our health? Why or how is it that our brain is rich in omega 3 fatty acids? Why would it accumulate there? So it is more protected in colder environments to transmit or release energy/cell respiration? For emergency? On the same note PUFAs are problematic due to their unstability heat and likelyhood of oxidation, wouldn't this make it a double edged source for the brain?

I know omega 3s have been discussed here very often and its benefits are said to be due to short term interactions as an antioxidant sort of, but ends up causing trouble long term as the bodys cell membranes made up of PUFAS are problematic in general especially when it is the bulk of our cells due to the western diet/food supply.

But i tried to understand it from a pre industrial time where mostly saturad fats (from animals) were used, right? Lard, Beef Tallow, Butter, Ghee etc.
At this time that very animal fat was THE source of PUFAs besides maybe whole food nuts/seeds (which can't be just devil food, this is such a reductionist way of looking at our body, its complex biologicial processes and interactions of our food).

Even if we derive the food from species appropiate fed animals, or coconut (unprocessed) or cocoa, we will still have some PUFA in there. The world is not PUFA free which is why i can't "shake" the feeling off that it is just "dangerous/unhealthy".

Lets not even talk about peoples anecdotal experience who acquired health benefits from it. Studies on this subject are contradicting too.

I came acroos one thread on this forum where it was recommended to "deplete" PUFAs here but on the same note it is also said that "some" consumption of PUFA instantly makes the effort of depletion useless ... what the hell? I guess some take it a little to far and get pathological fears of food?



Ideal environments only exists for thoose organism who adapted the best towards it. And to assume solely on our body temperature that this faty type of acid present everywhere is purely toxic just doesn't seem right.

Didn't Inuits develop a effective gene to turn fats into glucose since their diet for very long depends on fatty coldwater fish? They also live in colder climates so they can make use of the these fatty acids better can't they? On the other hand they wear thick cloth and are still "warm blooded" animals ... Bears hibernate but in essence theyr blood is warm too isnt it? But they eat alot of fish too? Why wouldn't non Inuits not also have develeoped some mechanism or genes or w/e to deal with "some PUFA" in their diet if we assume that it was always there?





Idk if i cherry picked an animal here but im still not 100 percent convinced.
I see ray peats work here as an way to appreaciate saturated fats rather than as an argument to avoid something that is in our "natural" food.


Im not advocating for PUFA diets and i see the benefits of reducing it. I like what Mrchibbs said about it:
Fats, functions and malfunctions.

The Great Fish Oil Experiment

The "essential fatty acids":


Suppress metabolism and promote obesity; are immunosuppressive; cause inflammation and shock; are required for alcoholic liver cirrhosis; sensitize to radiation damage; accelerate formation of aging pigment, cataracts, retinal degeneration; promote free radical damage and excitoxicity; cause cancer and accelerate its growth; are toxic to the heart muscle and promote atherosclerosis; can cause brain edema, diabetes, excessive vascular permeability, precocious puberty, progesterone deficiency....

Membranes, plasma membranes, and surfaces

Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

Fats and degeneration

Ray Peat

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic
 

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