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Digestion And Emotion, KMUD, January 2015

Discussion in 'Audio Interview Transcripts' started by burtlancast, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

    Jan 1, 2013

    Attached Files:

  2. OP

    burtlancast Member

    Jan 1, 2013
    Raymond Peat, Ph.D.

    Digestion and emotion

    KMUD, January 2015​

    (Transcribed by Bskory)

    AM: Please introduce yourself.

    RP: After working several years in humanities areas I decided to study biology because of wanting to get a concrete grasp of how the brain works in making language, images, and so on. So I intended to work on a Ph.D. at University of Oregon starting 1968 in brain biology. I quickly found that that was the most dogmatic area in biology - genetics and nerve biology. So, immediately I looked around for less dogmatic areas, and it turned out that the extreme other end of the organism, the reproductive system, happened to be the most scientific and empirical. So I did my dissertation on oxidative changes in the female reproductive system with aging. That involves a lot of nutrition - related topics that were of interest to me.

    AM: Just to let people know, at one time you were actively consulting with people, weren't you, for quite a few years.

    RP: In the 70's, I just happened to meet some women who were having hormonal problems. In graduate school, I had talked to some girls who...immediately when they came to the university got a cheap basement apartment, started having terrible PMS. 1967-68, I got interested in the role of light in brain and hormone function. I called it winter sickness, from a light deficiency. Then, when I started running into women with...oh, a slightly older group, 45 and 50, having really serious problems like multiple sclerosis and several other nerve related conditions, I recognized the work I had been doing with hamsters and hormones as being directly applicable to them. I started doing nutritional consulting. Finally started suggesting that they use progesterone and thyroid supplements because in some cases, the diet just wasn't enough to take care of acute problems.

    AM: I wanted to carry on partly from last month's topic on You Are What You Eat, and a little bit more of a focused look at diet, digestion, and emotion - because I know that some of the things that you brought out in your most recent newsletter, as well as the prior one - it's kind of peaked my interest in some other directions. And I also have some questions from people that have been garnered since last month. Going back to last week, you mentioned the gut peptide called cholecystokinin was previously shown to have a crucial role in mediating the effects of intragastric fatty acid solutions on brain activity. They were saying that the receptors for CCK, this cholecystokinin are known not only for their role in digestion but also for roles in memory function and learning, and in the modulation of panic and anxiety. So there's this link between the gut and the emotions. So it's not just for digestion and picking up food and sending it off to the various departments that store it like the fat cells, etc. But it also triggers emotive events in people. What do you interpret from my suggestion that CCK's role in the stimulation of secretion of bile in the digestion and the absorption of nutrients, especially fats supports a link between this mental function and digestion...

    RP: I think it's good to consider at least one other digestive peptide, the gastric inhibitory polypeptide - GIP. My general picture of the organism, for example, analogous to the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system, the day and the nights of the nervous systems - everywhere you look you can see this sort of a polar opposition in two kinds of functions. One is mobilizing, the other is demobilizing and relaxing.

    AM: That's the parasympathetic is the relaxing and the mobilizing is the sympathetic.

    RP: Ya. When the organism is young and healthy, that opposition works very nicely for night and day action and rest, cycling. In the digestive system, when you eat fats and proteins, you secrete the cholecystokinin. When you eat sugar, you secrete the GIP which is also called the insulinotropic hormone [peptide] because it calms down, stops your acid digestion because you don't need acid to handle sugar, but it activates the insulin so that you handle the sugar. When you look at the effect in the brain, CCK activates Corticotropic Release Hormone [*corticotropin-releasing hormone] which turns on anxiety and stress, and the pituitary ACTH which turns on the adrenals which handle stress. The gastric inhibitory polypeptide responding to glucose has pretty much the opposite effects. In the hippocampus, for example, which is part of the brain that's expanded by opportunity and learning, and shrunken by stress - the insulinotropic hormone, responding to sugar, also has receptors in the hippocampus that stimulate the birth of new cells. So learning and stimulating experience and eating sugar have the same effect on your brain. Eating fat and protein, surprisingly, turn on anxiety and stress.

    AM: Even protein, huh?

    RP: Well...ya. That tends to lower your blood sugar because it also stimulates insulin, and lowering the blood sugar turns on stress. In the farther-down intestine...if you could be born without bacteria...they've created situations with cesarean birth of rats and dogs and pigs and such and keeping them in a germ-free environment, they find that everything develops perfectly. In fact, the animals live longer and are very resistant to obesity and diabetes and degenerative diseases.

    AM: They have a very high metabolic rate, too, don't they?

    RP: Ya, they're very much like the calorie-restricted animals. And fat-free diets where they don't have the so-called essential fatty acids - those animals have an extremely high metabolic rate, too. And so the calorie restriction and being free of germs - both stimulate your ability to oxidize food, produce energy, and prevent obesity and be generally healthy and long-lived. So, something is happening in the intestine that the bacteria are responsible for. The main thing, it turns out, that the bacteria are doing is usually converting starches - starches is the main bacteria-promoting food - the bacteria living on these foods that we don't digest produce endotoxin. And the endotoxin - everywhere it reaches, a human cell stimulates the production of nitric oxide. And nitric oxide is on the demobilizing side of the balance. It turns off metabolism, slows down oxidation - so it's the main reason that having too many bacteria in the intestine creates obesity and lethargy and short life.

    AM: Is it all forms of starch that will promote the endotoxin production?

    RP: No. If they are very well cooked and easy to digest, and aren't complex with fibrous material...the difference would be a corn tortilla that had been processed in alkali to open up the starch granules [corn masa] making them easy to digest vs. the bean carbohydrates - the type of polysaccharide that human enzymes can't work on are ideal for feeding bacteria.

    AM: Hence all the gas!

    RP: When they've experimented with rats on this type of soluble indigestible fiber, the ones that get the fiber that supports bacterial growth become anxious and aggressive. They're fearful, and so they fight too easily.

    AM: So Dr. Peat, you've looked at and interpreted the link, then, between sort of decreased mental performance and poor digestion with the endotoxin formation especially from starch. I'm glad you brought up Nitric Oxide because again when I was looking up some articles this afternoon, I think you need to bring this out as a fairly important point because I think just like sugar, and just like polyunsaturates, both of which...well, sugar was demonized , and polyunsaturated fats were promoted so the liquid oils, the polyunsaturates have now definitely swinging the other way - even medical opinion is of the mindset now that maybe saturated fats are actually much better for the cells, much more stable, and more health promoting than the polyunsaturates, but it's taking a long time. Maybe, I think, sugar perhaps in time will come around again - but, it seems at the moment that nitric oxide is a pretty prevalent supplement - or, rather, the l-arginine that nitric oxide is manufactured from is becoming a fairly supplement, especially in the body building world. I wanted to ask you - given that these things are so freely available, and publications - numerous publications - even so-called scientific journals are coming out with studies that support nitric oxide's importance, and saying that it's extremely important for endothelial health, so the inner lining of the arteries, arterioles, etc. is the endothelia, and nitric oxide is produced within that to prevent things like stroke, angina, and a whole other host of cardiac events that would be considered causative without nitric oxide in terms of the kind of starvation, as it were, because the vasoconstriction that would happen, because nitric oxide is a vasodilator, but yet there's so much evidence contrary to that, and that's what I'd like you to bring out. Why is nitric oxide so dangerous because I know it's been implicated in stroke in people who used Viagra, for example?

    RP: Ya, I just recently heard about a doctor who treats cancer patients with intravenous arginine. Just before I heard about him, I had been reading way back to the 1940s, people discovered that arginine stimulate cancer growth, and starvation or reduction of arginine stops cancer growth. Through the 50s and 60s continuing - it's being picked up again just recently - methods to stop the conversion of arginine to nitric oxide, or to reduce the availability of arginine, it's being investigated again as a way to cure cancer. So, there are these two very opposite things going on. One is nitric oxide is being proposed to cure cancer; or suppressing nitric oxide - it's demonstrated to stop the growth of cancer. The first things that I was hearing about nitric oxide, I happened to be interested in endogenous carbon monoxide in the early to mid-80s. It can promote cancer by blocking the respiratory enzymes. And then in the mid and late 80s, people started realizing that something was producing nitric oxide in the body. It was '88 or '89 when the enzyme was demonstrated that we actually have the enzyme that makes this smog-like free radical in our tissues. Because it was already known as a major toxin in smog, immediately people were investigating what it's really doing in the body. From about 1990 up until the middle '90s there are many publications showing that very clearly nitric oxide produced in the pancreas kills insulin-producing beta cells. That was just massively documented up until about '96. Then, the Viagra people, they got a patent and started promoting the idea that somehow nitric oxide is associated with virility. Suddenly the research, by the late '90s, was turning just 180 degrees saying everything that nitric does must be wonderful because it is related to male virility.

    AM: Now, am I right in thinking also that nitric oxide in smog is a causative agent for asthma?

    RP: Ya. And there are people recommending arginine and breathing nitric oxide to treat asthma, but others demonstrating that people with asthma are producing it themselves, so you can measure it in their breath. The worse their asthma is, the more nitric oxide comes out on their breath. It's the same with hepatitis, cancer, any major systemic disease, you can find increased amounts of nitric oxide related chemicals in the blood.

    AM: Nitric oxide is produced in the body, and supposedly has beneficial functions. What do you think about the beneficial functions of nitric oxide in the body, and how is that mediated to a point where it's not dangerous, as it is if you're looking at being exposed to it or taking arginine to produce it in your body more than your body does...what's its real benefit?

    RP: It helps cells to de-differentiate by blocking their energy production. If you think of the mitochondrial high-energy oxidative system as being what creates a complex organism that uses energy so efficiently it can have many different types of tissue - if you want to de-differentiate, produce a stem cell, you knock out the energy production and it goes back and becomes amoeba like, or fungus like.

    AM: So this is like a stem cell recruitment...

    RP: Ya! When a tissue is injured, it secretes a great burst of nitric oxide, and that calls up stem cells from the environment, but it also creates them - it de-differentiates adjoining tissues so that they can form whatever new tissue is needed. So, de-differentiation is part of forming the organisms in the first place as the embryo develops. Nitric oxide has a constructive role. And then for tissue - wound healing - it's essential. But, that very same burst that calls up repair cells and de-differentiates cells to make repair cells, if that doesn't have the ability to be turned off, it keeps de-differentiating and stimulating tissue renewal so that you get an unhealing wound...the least bad example of that would be a keloid - a scar tissue that just keeps growing and getting bigger without forming the right kind of tissue. But, in the worst case, then it becomes a tumor and a cancer.

    AM: How do you see the control of nitric oxide so that it's a proportionate response - if and when you need it through injury - and blocking it, dietarily or supplementaly, so that you're not exposed to this pretty dangerous compound until your body needs it.

    RP: Everything that we have that is involved in producing oxidative energy helps to turn it off. So Vitamin B1, Niacin amide, the anti-inflammatory things like progesterone, pregnenolone, thyroid hormone, all of the differentiating mobilizing energy-intensifying substances turn it off. Everything that interferes with those turns it on and keeps it going. It's the demobilizing ...for example, going into hibernation, and animal produces these demobilizing signals with nitric oxide. Anything that makes the organism tend to give up and stop struggling - demobilizing because of stress or isolation - inescapable stress powerfully turns on nitric oxide. In the brain function, when your brain is being turned off, it experiences depression - it wants to retreat. Things like anxiety and aggression - you aggress if someone doesn't let you retreat.

    AM: I wanted to ask you about the mind-body connection because I know that when I've spoken to you previously, you've kind of advocated what I think a lot of new age or alternative thinking people would have held as a tenant of their belief in sort of a higher power, if you like, through focused attention and positive thinking - your physical body can definitely be improved. I know I've had this conversation with you previously about, well, what would come first? Would you use supplements that would promote everything that we've been talking about now...so, progesterone, thyroid, the B vitamins, etc. to turn this negative cascade off, or would you have a positive mental outlook? Or do you see the two being important together, and do you have any kind of protocol that you would be looking at that would be a good rational for achieving both of those things?

    RP: When you look at the example of the psychologists who create depression by torturing animals, convincing them that they can't escape, once they form the idea that they can't escape, they don't try to escape anymore. So it's an intellectual switch that happens from the bad experience. If you have made an animal helpless by those experiences - just one experience of escape will cure it. It's resistant because of that knowledge [that it did and can escape]. The culture is telling people too often that they can't escape. They have to do what they do. So, something as simple as taking a vacation or getting a new job can make a tremendous difference - a person can pop right out of a prolonged depression if they get a new kind of work, for example.

    Caller: Do you think using low-dose Arimidex [Anastrozole] as an aromatase inhibitor would be appropriate for a female who is correcting her metabolic rate by a thyroid diet, but has a fair amount of fat to lose still. Would that be safe to use while she loses the fat safely?

    RP: Those chemicals all have some side-effects, so there are much better ways to turn off estrogen production. Just the endotoxin from bacteria is a powerful promoter of aromatase and estrogen production. So taking an antibiotic or eating a kind of fiber that doesn't support bacterial growth or avoiding starches and eating saturated fats which have a germicidal effect - saturated fatty acids are very much like antiseptics as far as the intestinal bacteria go - so, just by making those dietary changes you can make a tremendous impact on your balance between estrogen and cortisol versus the protective progesterone and androgens and so on.

    Caller: Could you explain briefly the mechanisms of histamines and the good ways to correct that [histamine responses]?

    RP: Since I was mentioning the saturated fats...some of the shorter chain saturated fats in coconut oil have an anti-histamine effect. Coffee is very effective signal to turn off histamine production. Anything that energizes and restores cell function tends to prevent the production of histamine.

    AM: How about sugar?

    RP: Oh, definitely! A person wrote a book about histamine about 40 years ago and he demonstrated that histamine is produced in every kind of cell in the organism when it's sufficiently stressed. That was before nitric oxide was known, but histamine turns on nitric oxide, so those are the two probably universal stress injury signals.

    Caller: On the last show, you had mentioned that tetracycline destroys harmful intestinal bacteria while preserving the good bacteria. Do we know that for sure? How does it selectively spare the "beneficial" bacteria? I've always heard there is a symbiotic relationship with certain intestinal bacteria that help to absorb certain nutrients. So, I'm assuming that would be considered a beneficial bacteria, if that is true...

    RP: I think that the interactions of the intestinal bacteria are too complicated to divide them neatly into beneficial and harmful. In the germ-free animals, they've done experiments with introducing a single species of lactobacillus, and even the supposedly beneficial bacteria will make the germ-free animal susceptible to injury that it wasn't susceptible to before. So, it's the context and interaction of the different bacteria, and generally the healthier a person is, the more sterile their small intestine is.

    Caller: So, what do you think of the idea that certain nutrients are absorbed through the actions of so-called beneficial bacteria? Is that kind of a fallacy?

    RP: Ya, I think it's...there's a little effect there, but I don't think it makes a big nutritional difference. The totally germ-free animals had extremely efficient digestive systems.

    Caller: You still hear people talking about beneficial bacteria - and, of course, there's people out there SELLING supposedly beneficial bacteria. One more question - the term free fatty acids, is that always referring to polyunsaturated fat, or is there instances where free fatty acids are actually saturated fat?

    RP: They can be either way. Coconut soap is the salt of the saturated free fatty acids. So, if you actually could eat a bite of free fatty acids, it would taste like acidic soap.

    Caller: What is the effect of infrared on the cells - mitochondria - it produces nitric oxide, doesn't it?

    RP: Water absorbs infrared very powerfully. So real infrared feels warm and it helps to keep your body temperature up - and keeping your body temperature up is very good - essential - for the mitochondria. The stress of cold is enough to turn on nitric oxide, and that can start down the pathway of hibernation and turning off functions. So, infrared, as it keeps your body temperature up, helps your mitochondria. The far-red visible light - dark red - anywhere from orange to dark red - these aren't very well absorbed by water, and so they go right through your tissue. You can see a red light shining through your whole body if you're in the dark. You can see it through your hand - put a light behind your hand. That's because it penetrates and is only is absorbed by...blue copper is the main thing that absorbs it. Enzymes that contain copper in the blue form - that does absorb red. And those happen to be the respiratory enzymes. So the far-red activates the respiratory enzymes, and probably a major reason for that is that it bounces the nitric oxide molecule - loosens it and frees it from the respiratory enzymes where it has been blocking it.

    Caller: Regarding treating corn with lime to make it more digestible - are sprouted grain tortillas also considered good for the digestion?

    RP: The starch is largely consumed and used. The storage proteins in the seed happen to have lots of ammonia or amino groups which are used to make actual functioning proteins with the energy from the starch. So when you sprout a grain you get rid of the toxic proteins that could release too much arginine and produce nitric oxide and histamine, and you get rid of most of the starches. So, sprouts are basically good nutrition, like leaves.

    Caller: Oh! So it doesn't matter whether it is sprouted wheat or barley or whatever...in general it's a good thing?

    RP: All seeds as far as I know have some toxic effects. Many of them are built in by the plant to protect their offspring. Once the sprouting has begun, the seed detoxifies those intrinsic chemicals, especially if it's very well cooked, and then it becomes nutritious.

    Caller: Progesterone for men - is it beneficial or harmful?

    RP: Men who are in good health have a fair amount of progesterone. It's rarely measured in men, but it prevents abnormal excess clotting, and it's a precursor for other hormones. If you have a good amount of progesterone, it protects you against fluctuations in the adrenal steroids - aldosterone and cortisol - so that progesterone is sort of an all-purpose defensive hormone. It's very highly concentrated in the brain - men, as well as women. So it's definitely not just a female hormone. But if you have too much of it - if you take a supplement, it opposes testosterone, and so a man doesn't want to take it regularly and stop his whiskers growing, for example. For an emergency, a big supplement can be helpful for...for example, epilepsy or arthritis - it's very helpful for men as well as women.

    AM: How quickly would you metabolize a dose of progesterone if you did take it and it was a large dose for something that was...?

    RP: I know a doctor who insisted that taking progesterone orally wouldn't show up in the blood. So he took a 1/4th of a teaspoon and then drew his blood every half hour for 12 hours, I think, and he showed that it peaked in around the first hour and then gradually decreased over the next day.

    Caller: Is it the doctor's opinion that yogurt or it’s supposed beneficial is not so beneficial?

    RP: If it has had some of the lactic acid drained off, or if it has just coagulated without becoming very sour, then it's fine. I think the Greek yogurt which isn't sour is safe, but the acidic ones and related products - I discovered that by drinking a cup of Kefir - every day I would have a cup of that for lunch, I would get a migraine for several hours afterward, and so I started reading about what's happening. For one thing, the type of lactic acid produced by bacteria is racemic [one version of a mirror image, in the way that a left glove is different than a right glove] and the kind we make is mostly the one confirmation that works differently. The racemic type made by bacteria, is more able to produce inflammation and fibrosis if you’re chronically overloaded with it.

    Caller: Really! That actually dovetails nicely into my main question, I think. I was recently more or less diagnosed, by a Western style doctor, with a particular kind of skin condition that I've been suffering with for 20 years or so - Hidradenitis suppurativa, supposedly something that deals with the apocrine sweat glands that causes cysts. So, do you have any info on that, and when you're talking about yogurt and the inflammation caused by certain bacteria...I've been actually trying to support my system in general with Kefir...

    RP: People have experimented with even killing the lactobacillus and in itself, even when it's dead, it has a very definite anti-inflammatory effect in the intestine.

    Caller: An anti-inflammatory effect? So it would be a good thing then for a condition that causes inflammation and cysting?

    RP: Ya, that seems to be the implication - that it isn't the lactic acid or the metabolism of the lactic acid bacteria that is anti-inflammatory, but just something about the chemistry of the organism, even if it's dead. Since the inflammation in the intestine is quickly reflected in the physiology of the skin, soothing your intestine will take care of a lot of skin conditions - acne...

    Caller: So you're saying the bacteria itself is beneficial but not the lactic acid that is common with many sour yogurts.

    RP: Yes. Yogurt minus the lactic acid is better.

    AM: Hippocratic medicine always mentioned that the liver was the seat of anger. Do you have any comment on how this might come about? Might it be related to digestion and endotoxin and inflammation? What do you think about that? Do you think it makes any sense?

    RP: The liver, to the extent that it's injured, will ruin the whole organism. It's the chemist for the whole organism. If you're starving and not getting enough protein especially, or not enough B-vitamins, your liver loses the ability to detoxify, and you get gross hormone imbalances. That can lead to progressive inflammation, fibrosis - and as these processes get more serious, the liver becomes a larger source of nitric oxide. At the point that it's becoming inflamed and cirrhotic, then it starts secreting nitric oxide to the whole system. The lungs, with an acute injury to the liver, the lungs will become acutely inflamed. When they transplant a liver, they've measured the sick person's nitric oxide very high. When they put in a new liver, suddenly the nitric oxide is low and the lungs suddenly begin working more efficiently, demonstrating that the liver is poisoning the lungs so that the oxygen doesn't get through efficiently. With the brain - same thing is happening. Edema is produced in the brain by the endotoxin / nitric oxide combination. The ammonia produced by the liver which is being injured was traditional explanation for why the brain has problems in proportion to the liver, but now it's known that ammonia is activating the nerves that are excited by the glutamic acid - MSG, excitatory amino acids - and those excitatory amino acids act largely through nitric oxide. So depression, anxiety, and I assume aggression is part of this mixture of gradual poisoning to different degrees.

    AM: Do you know if there's any blood tests for nitric oxide like there is for cholesterol?

    RP: I don't know what labs have available. It's becoming very common in research to look at the whole range of things produced by nitric oxide, but I don't know of any local medical labs that do that.

    AM: In terms of emotional well-being - being restorative - and a kind of dynamic process that is going to improve the general health of an organism when their mind's in that place of emotionally being satisfied, happy, having a positive outlook, positive thinking, etc. Exercise, I know...in my younger days when I used to go the gym, I remember feeling really very positive about it. Looking back on it now, it was probably because I was running on a lot of adrenaline from working out and just charging around like a crazy person. In terms of exercise, I know that you always advocate gentle weight-bearing exercise. You don't advocate any aerobic exercise. In terms of generating a healthy physique with exercise, what would you suggest rather than protein shakes and amino acids and supplements...what would you suggest as being some of the best food sources, and perhaps...you've mentioned gelatin - I don't know if you think gelatin is a good thing because of the amino acids or...what would you suggest.

    RP: Gelatin is at least safe. It doesn't stimulate muscle growth the way other proteins such as meat can do. The person's history really has to be taken into account when you're looking at the diet and exercise program because I've known people who ate gigantic amounts of meat and were producing so much cortisol in response to the meat that they had extremely high levels of amino acids in their urine, and their muscles were being damaged by that same high level of cortisol. So ideally, like the germ free animals, they can run on very little protein and lots of carbohydrate. The carbohydrate gets used for energy and you would assimilate, essentially, all of the protein that you eat because your cortisol wouldn't be destroying it and excreting it.

    AM: What kind of carbohydrates wouldn't be starchy and dangerous?

    RP: Fruit.

    AM: Alright, so that's it. Pretty much, then, you're saying that fruit would be a very good source of amino acids as muscle building compounds.

    RP: As long as you’re getting all of the essential nutrients - for example, from sea foods and eggs and fruits and gelatin would be a very safe diet for adults.

    AM: Ok. Thank you, Dr Peat.[/justify]
  3. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

    Oct 5, 2014
    Say whaaaaat??? "stops your acid digestion" ? So that means sugar+protein is going to be badly digested ? I don't get that.

    @burtlancast what's your opinion on that ??
  4. OP

    burtlancast Member

    Jan 1, 2013
    I'm no specialist of GIP, but it seems to me Ray wrote it stops acid secretion ONLY IN CASE NO PROTEIN IS TAKEN WITH THE GLUCOSE.

    Gastric inhibitory polypeptide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Wiki says it's basic role is insulin secretion, and that it' effect on acidity is not what it was originally thought.
  5. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

    Oct 5, 2014
    makes sense! Thanks mate.