Diet: Peat Vs. Broda Barnes

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Of course domesticated pigs get fat from corn. If a pig ate it's natural diet and was living in it's natural setting then it wouldn't store excess fat. Homo sapiens are the only animal to eat cooked starch and the evidence is clear that it has never caused obesity or t2d throughout recorded history. It's only today that it's the scapegoat and people ignore what is consumed alongside it and the fact that oil and dairy fat has increased is ignored. But what is interesting about corn and grain fed pig, chicken, turkey, and cow, is that somehow, all of them are able to extract enough amino acids from the grains. They wouldn't have any muscle tissue otherwise. So there is a balance between some of the energy being stored as fat and some of the amino acids being used to build the muscle.

A factory pig comes from the Eurasian wild boar.

"The wild boar is a highly versatile omnivore, whose diversity in choice of food rivals that of humans.[31] Its foods can be divided into four categories:
• Rhizomes, roots, tubers and bulbs, all of which are dug up throughout the year in the animal's whole range.[3]
• Nuts, berries, and seeds, which are consumed when ripened and are dug up from the snow when abundant.[3]
• Leaves, bark, twigs, and shoots, along with garbage.[3]
• Earthworms, insects, mollusks, fish, rodents, insectivores, bird eggs, lizards, snakes, frogs, and carrion. Most of these prey items are taken in warm periods"

The natural boar looks pretty lean compared to a fat factory pig:

636px-Scavenger_feast_-_Yala_December_2010_(2).jpg


article-0-1606F987000005DC-776_634x452.jpg
 
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It looks like the dieters were eating 1300 to 1500 calories per day, anyone would lose weight on that level of intake. What happens to the ability to oxides glucose after 18 months of ketosis?
 
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J

joepotter

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Thanks for sharing, csp.
It's interesting to see Broda's take on obesity. It's more or less the modern day low carb diet. Fat loss is achieved through ketosis.

And that seems to me to be the sort of thing that Ray Peat has cautioned us about as it would lead to suppression of the Thyroid. Hence, my confusion.
 

heartnhands

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You are very close. I was working on the heart only. I had an "incident" last summer and my pulse pressure was always near 70 which is horrific. I also had a large jump in blood pressure and the blood pressure was highly erratic. Obviously, weight was not my main concern at that time.

I consumed huge quantities of coconut oil and things cooked in coconut oil. I eat potatoes smothered in butter or coconut oil. I eat oysters and shrimp and beef liver. I sauteed veggies in coconut oil. I drank whole milk and eat a ton of cheese. And fruit --- loads of fruit.

Within about two months, my heart was near perfect according to the numbers. In the evening at 6:30 after resting for 30 minutes I average about 130/85 with a pulse rate of 85 to 90 (average 88 or so). The pulse-pressure is almost always between 40 and 50 with the average at 45. I figure my heart is now much better than most 64 year old men --- and that given a heart attack last summer.

So, after the heart numbers started to suit me, I went to skim milk and low fat cheese and reduced the butter a bit. The weight gain stopped, but I am sitting at a 240 and had been at 200 for the last decade or so. Now is time to shed some weight <b>without</b> doing any damage to the hormonal balance that could injure my heart via causing thyroid problems.

And why is the Barnes idea of weight loss so different from Peat? Or is it? Perhaps I am missing something.

PS: snarky BS don't bother me any but it is not exactly helpful.

The question was simple. How to get the weight off without screwing up my health in any way.


Glad your heart is on track. I admire your diligence and am looking forward to your progress as my numbers are not so good and I know my circulation is still far less than optimal but I'm already super uncomfortable about my weight. Health is my goal but I thought RP has said that keeping good oils like good butter, coconut, and cheese are to be just around half of calories and plain oil around 1 Tablespoon for those of us with low metabolism. Of course I'm so new to this that I might be mistaken but I hope to have a little more positive support than a quick defensive RP savior stab to the chest.

Keep me posted!
 

Stryker

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You are very close. I was working on the heart only. I had an "incident" last summer and my pulse pressure was always near 70 which is horrific. I also had a large jump in blood pressure and the blood pressure was highly erratic. Obviously, weight was not my main concern at that time.

I consumed huge quantities of coconut oil and things cooked in coconut oil. I eat potatoes smothered in butter or coconut oil. I eat oysters and shrimp and beef liver. I sauteed veggies in coconut oil. I drank whole milk and eat a ton of cheese. And fruit --- loads of fruit.

Within about two months, my heart was near perfect according to the numbers. In the evening at 6:30 after resting for 30 minutes I average about 130/85 with a pulse rate of 85 to 90 (average 88 or so). The pulse-pressure is almost always between 40 and 50 with the average at 45. I figure my heart is now much better than most 64 year old men --- and that given a heart attack last summer.

So, after the heart numbers started to suit me, I went to skim milk and low fat cheese and reduced the butter a bit. The weight gain stopped, but I am sitting at a 240 and had been at 200 for the last decade or so. Now is time to shed some weight <b>without</b> doing any damage to the hormonal balance that could injure my heart via causing thyroid problems.

And why is the Barnes idea of weight loss so different from Peat? Or is it? Perhaps I am missing something.

PS: snarky BS don't bother me any but it is not exactly helpful.

The question was simple. How to get the weight off without screwing up my health in any way.

simply put high calories + fat = fat gain

what you need to do is get rid of the high fat to as low as you can tolerate and replace the calories with protein and carbs , train with weights to build your muscle mass no cardio

take a small amount of aspirin(150mg) and vitamin e(100iu) -( to start with and increase if needed) to mitigate the effects of any fat that might be dumped into the bloodtstream and used for fuel.
 

m_arch

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simply put high calories + fat = fat gain

what you need to do is get rid of the high fat to as low as you can tolerate and replace the calories with protein and carbs , train with weights to build your muscle mass no cardio

take a small amount of aspirin(150mg) and vitamin e(100iu) -( to start with and increase if needed) to mitigate the effects of any fat that might be dumped into the bloodtstream and used for fuel.
what do you eat in a typical day if you don't mind?
 

natedawggh

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Dr. Ray Peat often lauds Dr. Broda Barnes in his writings. I recently read the Barnes book called "Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness".

In this book, Dr. Barnes surprised me on the issue of a weight loss diet. His idea was to keep fat very high and carbs relatively low. Something like 90 grams of fat, 70 of protein, and 50 of carbs. Another person also saw it that way --- THE BARNES DIET

This diet is anti-Peat as far as I can tell.

Ray Peat seems to want protein up around 90 grams at least, and fruits filling in most of the calories and saturated fats only. (over simplification I know) Peat also seems to recommend against going to the low calorie diet as above which calculates to only 1290 calories or so. Ray peat would have me never restrict calories unless I have misunderstood him.

So, I am confused. I gained about 40 pounds doing the "Peat thing" and need to get it back off. I started for heart health and the diet really, really helped. But I need to get some weight off.

Can someone please "un-confuse" me?

How To Do A Low-Fat Diet
 

docall18

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In fairness Ray Peat says :

A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress

That is not a lot of sugar compare to what some people on the forum advise. I see many post advising people to consume vast amounts of sugars, fruits, even coca cola. This is going to screw up your blood sugar and make you hungry and fat no matter how low your fat intake is.

If you follow Peats above quote you are probably going to end up on a fairly regular diet, minus the PUFA and grains. This is what i am going to try.
 

managing

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In fairness Ray Peat says :

A daily diet that includes two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice provides enough fructose and other sugars for general resistance to stress

That is not a lot of sugar compare to what some people on the forum advise. I see many post advising people to consume vast amounts of sugars, fruits, even coca cola. This is going to screw up your blood sugar and make you hungry and fat no matter how low your fat intake is.

If you follow Peats above quote you are probably going to end up on a fairly regular diet, minus the PUFA and grains. This is what i am going to try.
I tried this for about 5 days, but I couldn't keep my glycogen reserves from depleting unexpectedly and quit. Twice it happened during a 30 mile ride that I otherwise normally do w/o any food (before/after, but not during). And I was overall consuming MORE sugar on Peat's DD than I ordinarily do. I am guessing that the reduced fat was not permitting the liver to efficiently store the glycogen. Thoughts?
 

DaveFoster

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I tried this for about 5 days, but I couldn't keep my glycogen reserves from depleting unexpectedly and quit. Twice it happened during a 30 mile ride that I otherwise normally do w/o any food (before/after, but not during). And I was overall consuming MORE sugar on Peat's DD than I ordinarily do. I am guessing that the reduced fat was not permitting the liver to efficiently store the glycogen. Thoughts?
Same. I need significantly more calories on a low-fat diet.
 

XPlus

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Contradicts my experience, or that of entire populations. And apparently the experience of Ray himself too...
Tell me more, mate.
I'm coming more to find that going too low on fat is counterproductive.
 

charlie

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I'm coming more to find that going too low on fat is counterproductive.
And possibly bad for the gallbladder. :2cents:
 
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And possibly bad for the gallbladder. :2cents:

The gallbladder is not important. It's like the bladder, they are just storage bags. People have it removed often. After surgery, bile flows from the liver (where it is made) through the common bile duct and into the small intestine. The body can no longer store bile between meals. In most people, this has little or no effect on digestion. If it does then take an ox bile supplement.
 

jyb

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I've never seen those quotes. Care to share?

"RP: For about, I guess 15 years, I had a quart [of ice cream] a day. And it did not affect my weight." Protection And Restoration Of The Nervous System, 2005 Conference

As for populations eating high fat and having normal weights. Although I would have said that the earlier Massais might have been an example, I do not need to speculate. I've lived in continental Europe, I know well what is a fatty diet and hardly knew anyone with a belly. It is very difficult for me to understand people who think fat makes one fat, unless they mean vegetable oils or the kind of diet you find in the US. I personally eat extremely high fat and never noticed a change in body fat (wasn't expecting any).
 

XPlus

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"RP: For about, I guess 15 years, I had a quart [of ice cream] a day. And it did not affect my weight." Protection And Restoration Of The Nervous System, 2005 Conference

As for populations eating high fat and having normal weights. Although I would have said that the earlier Massais might have been an example, I do not need to speculate. I've lived in continental Europe, I know well what is a fatty diet and hardly knew anyone with a belly. It is very difficult for me to understand people who think fat makes one fat, unless they mean vegetable oils or the kind of diet you find in the US. I personally eat extremely high fat and never noticed a change in body fat (wasn't expecting any).

Not everyone is a thyroid master like Peat. The average person wouldn't be able to eat a quart of ice cream a day without taking thyroid as well as the other makeup of their diet. He's been on thyroid since the 70's.

Data from 2014, page 102: WHO | World Health Statistics 2015

obese.jpg
 
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