Did I Diabetes Myself? HYEEEELP!

explosionlord

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Hello all; long-time lurker, first time poster. Lemme say that I've enjoyed all your advice throughout the 3-4 years since I discovered Peat.

Anyway, as is typical of first-time posters, I decided to post because I'm having some problems. Namely that I think I may have "diabetes-ed" myself. What's worrying me most at the moment is this extensive brain fog I'm feeling, to the point my temples mildly hurt and I have light tunnel vision. My best guess is since I started a Leangains regimen, I have been getting too much fat (70-80g a day, pretty much exclusively saturated, though in some recent days I was pushing 100g) and my circulating FFAs have been high. Along with all this, and prior to the ketonic-feeling brain fog, I have bad abdominal pain whenever I eat higher fat foods. It isn't in any particular "quadrant" as pancreatitis would suggest, but I'm still believing it has to be pancreas-related. Last night I felt so messed up with that ketogenic feeling until I dissolved some baking soda in water and drank it, and it subsided to great extent.

I have been taking 150-400mg pregnenolone, 500mg niacinamide, enteric aspirin (chewed), and mk-4 K2 (topically) recently. With leangains, I was aiming for 145 g protein a day and was doing well with that for a few weeks, but within the past few weeks getting to 100 has been a struggle. I admit my calcium:phosphorus ratios haven't been optimal, but I've been working on it; I supplement with dolomite on days I don't get enough milk to top over phosphorus- only problem with that is I'm not sure of dolomite's efficacy, since there don't seem to be many good studies on it (it's calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate). I also admit to having a lot of wheat just for its convenience in attaining calories; noodles, et cetera, but always get unenriched stuff. I do OJ with Natural Calm (magnesium citrate) in the mornings and would sometimes drink Vitamin Waters for the fructose.

Again, what's worrying me is the keto-feel, because since I can't seem to have fat (bad abdominal pain and bubbling ensue) and this seems to suggest I am not metabolizing sugar, that means I can't have sugar/carbs. Obviously, only eating protein is a no-go...what do I do? I have basically been in this haze the past three days non-stop.

I have no bloodwork basis for the ketone idea, just remembering the feeling from about 5 years ago when I did Lyle McDonald's ketogenic diet thing. I was thinking of getting a glucose/ketone monitor from Walgreens, what do you guys think?
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Oh yeah, my vitals are: 33 years old, 5'11", 145 lbs- kinda scrawny/stingy-muscle type. Generally do weightlifiting 3x a week.

Also wanted to add I do use Great Leaks beef gelatin often, drink coffee at least once a day (usually with half/half or cream, neither w/ gums or anything).
 

BastiFuntasty

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Are those 70-100 g of fat really that much for a guy with lots of muscles? I don't think so, as long as you don't freak out with 1000g of carbs or so.

If you rly have problems with that much fat than simply try to lower it and see how you do. Things like aspirin or niacin are not optimal to take while on high fat, they possibly will prevent them to be used for energy, so that you could gain fat tissue. On the other hand they prevent building of ffas which is what we want.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Haha, well I never said I have "lots of muscles". I'm pretty scrawny, really. I also agree that the amount of fats seem normal, but I'm having some kind of issue with high fat, in spite of this.

Actually, something similar to this (minus the ketogenic feeling) happened to me in April of last year. I simply went low fat for a month or so and it went away. This time, the added brain fog feeling is really irking me.
 

BastiFuntasty

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Haha, well I never said I have "lots of muscles". I'm pretty scrawny, really. I also agree that the amount of fats seem normal, but I'm having some kind of issue with high fat, in spite of this.

Actually, something similar to this (minus the ketogenic feeling) happened to me in April of last year. I simply went low fat for a month or so and it went away. This time, the added brain fog feeling is really irking me.
Ahh sry I translated scrawny pretty much wrong :rolleyes:
I think you are already doing good things to help with insulin effectivity. How much carbs do you normally eat? Those supps need carbs to work.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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According to my Cronometer, in the last 7 days I've averaged about 205g/daily. The Leangains deal was calling for 248g on non-training days, up to over 500g on training days, but I never got to 500 I don't think. The past 7 days have been bad for me calorie and carb-wise since I started working again, as I tend to get very into my job and not take breaks which equals not eating as much- I was under 2,000 cals almost every day, but ate potatoes, tuna, and (sadly) cereal and skim milk. Still didn't hit any of my targets, macro or micro, as I did easily when I wasn't working, though.

I think another part of my problem has been meal size. Especially because of working, I would get home and be like "Blood and guts, I only have gotten 1000 cals, today!" and try to eat a big meal to compensate, letting a bolus o' electrons bust on in. Actually, this kind of thing has happened pretty often in the last month or two, where I might get 1400 calories in one sitting.

Today, I've had some homemade sushi made with fat-free cream cheese (gums, I know), raw tuna, shrimp, and asparagus, and some coffee with heavy cream. I'm not having the stomach pain, presumably because of the lower fat (about 14g, today) and calories, but still have a kinda ketogenic feeling that won't go away.
 

whodathunkit

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May 6, 2016
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IMO your symptoms point to liver problems, not problems metabolizing sugar. I know because I am battling them myself.

Liver creates bile to help digest fats. If you've got a problem, like maybe your liver is clogged up with a little too much fat (or maybe heavy metals or other toxins, but I'd bet little bit of fatty liver) then it can't create enough bile to digest what your eating. This causes what some people view as gall bladder or pancreatitis attacks, but they're not. You've simply got a big slowdown in digestion because your bile acids aren't up to par. This I'm sure of because I've worked through it myself. I was having some terrible attacks this time last year that I've been able to resolve. I thought my pancreas or gall bladder was whacked but seems it's not pancreas, it's all about the bile.

Please note I'm not suggesting you have liver disease. You probably don't and I don't believe I do...but a lot of years of fatty eating and crummy lifestyle choices have left me with a lot of residual fat and other detritus in my liver and other organs. Just gotta keep working to clean it out. The liver especially is an amazing organ with the ability to completely regenerate itself as long as damage is not too severe. You're so young, I expect with the right lifestyle interventions you'll spring back just fine. You simply have to figure out what's the right lifestyle intervention for you.

Another cause of these types of digestion problems seems to be over-doing intermittent fasting, too. Pains me to say this, because I loved fasting for a while. But I had no trouble with my digestion until I started following a self-created regimen very similar to Leangains, swinging between days of very little food and days of high calorie/high protein/high fat. There is no documentation that I know of to back up my contention on this...just my experience and some anecdotes I read on the internet. However, we all know that too much intermittent fasting eventually tanks metabolism, which is why Peat is not a fan of it, and when your metabolism tanks everything slows down. For myself, I finally realized my "gall bladder/pancreatitis attacks" were actually partial gastroparesis, with some parts of my GI tract overperforming while others became immobilized. Gastroparesis is a hallmark of poor metabolism and dysfunction in energy production (i.e., metabolic slow down).

Anyway, too much fat in the diet and circulating FFA's are the real culprit in diabetes, NOT carbs. When I eat only carbs and no fat or protein my blood sugar normalizes within a week. Problem is I don't like eating like that...makes me want to sew my mouth shut. :meh: Main culprit in diabetes also seems to be the liver...some level of liver damage or dysfunction seems to create problems with glycogen storage and insulin signaling. I wish I had some links to offer you about this but I don't. My brainfog is pretty bad these days so I'm not so hot with retention and details to offer other people, although I function well enough to work on myself. If that makes sense. It's fairly easy to research, though. I'm repeating what I've read about in various places around the internet that jive with my personal experience.

If your liver is compromised it may not be able to handle such a big protein load, either. The byproducts of metabolizing protein are processed in the liver, and if the liver can't process them properly, they get recirculated. One of these byproducts is ammonia, which can wreak all kinds of havoc if you've got too much of it. When I first started Peat I had to cut back on my protein because of symptoms of ammonia overload. Mood problems, anxiety, and poor cognition are symptoms of ammonia overload.

You might consider cutting back on your fat. Very low fat has been a very successful intervention for me with regards to lowering blood sugar, helping my digestion, and helping with liver function. But keep your overall calories up. Without as much fat you'll be eating a higher volume of food.

You might also consider cutting back on protein, at least until your liver seems to be better. 80g of protein is not a bad intake. We're all different from the Leangains guy and even Ray Peat, so we have to tweak things to make them tolerable for us.

You also might consider taking digestive enzymes as well as bile acids with your meals. Jarrow makes a good bile acid product

Amazon.com: Jarrow Formulas Bile Acid Factors, Supports Absorption of Fats, 90 Caps: Health & Personal Care

and there are a lot of good digestive products out there. IME digestive enzymes are a little harder to recommend because everyone reacts to different brands in a different way. Try some and see what works for you.

Finally...500mg is A LOT of niacinimide. If you have energy production problems, too much niacin will put you in the tank. I don't know why, but so many people with energy problems can't take any form of niacin. I know Peat likes it, but as with everything, the reaction is within the individual, and some of us just don't react well to it. In my early days of recovery from CFS with a methylation protocol even 10mg of any form of niacin would give me symptoms and set me back hard. Niacin is a crucial vitamin, but people on methylation protocols use it to tamp down symptoms from overmethylation, so if you're not methylating properly taking so much of it could be a problem for you. These days I can take 50mg-100mg niacin or niacinimide without problems...but I still can't take it every day or I feel the bad effects. Please consider cutting your dose back to 100mg or less per day, at least for a while. Might even consider stopping it completely for a little while. Stopping won't hurt you and you can always start it up again if you think you miss it.

Sorry if this is tl;dr. But your case sounds a lot like what I went through last year, so thought I'd chime in. Digestive problems that mimic gallbladder attacks and pancreatitis are NO FUN. I wish you the best of luck. :)
 
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BastiFuntasty

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Jun 9, 2015
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225
Yeah that's pretty hard sometimes to combine work with a healthy diet. But you definitely need more carbs. Maybe some fruits or milk with oj or other fruit juices while you're working. Preg and all the other pro metabolic supps need glucose otherwise they can increase adrenaline and cortisol.
 

Peater Piper

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Mar 18, 2016
Messages
817
I have no bloodwork basis for the ketone idea, just remembering the feeling from about 5 years ago when I did Lyle McDonald's ketogenic diet thing. I was thinking of getting a glucose/ketone monitor from Walgreens, what do you guys think?
Might be a good idea for peace of mind, plus it would rule out one thing, allowing you explore other potential causes. Ketone urine strips would be the cheapest and easiest option. If ketones aren't dumping into your urine then your glucose levels aren't getting excessively high. A glucose meter would give a more detailed looked. Wal-Mart carries a ReliOn Prime meter with dirt cheap testing strips. Online reviews are mixed, but I've found it to be right in line with more expensive meters that I've been able to try, and it was within a couple points of my lab tested fasting glucose. The meter and 25 strips would set you back about $15 if you're in the USA.
 

Tarmander

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Apr 30, 2015
Messages
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You are really skinny man, putting on 10-20 lbs would probably make you feel much much better and it would not be in the "unhealthy quadrant. Your bmi is around 20, which they will tell you is healthy, but I've seen anorexics with higher BMIs.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Joined
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Messages
64
Location
Tempe, Scare-i-zona
IMO your symptoms point to liver problems, not problems metabolizing sugar. I know because I am battling them myself.

Liver creates bile to help digest fats. If you've got a problem, like maybe your liver is clogged up with a little too much fat (or maybe heavy metals or other toxins, but I'd bet little bit of fatty liver) then it can't create enough bile to digest what your eating. This causes what some people view as gall bladder or pancreatitis attacks, but they're not. You've simply got a big slowdown in digestion because your bile acids aren't up to par. This I'm sure of because I've worked through it myself. I was having some terrible attacks this time last year that I've been able to resolve. I thought my pancreas or gall bladder was whacked but seems it's not pancreas, it's all about the bile.

Please note I'm not suggesting you have liver disease. You probably don't and I don't believe I do...but a lot of years of fatty eating and crummy lifestyle choices have left me with a lot of residual fat and other detritus in my liver and other organs. Just gotta keep working to clean it out. The liver especially is an amazing organ with the ability to completely regenerate itself as long as damage is not too severe. You're so young, I expect with the right lifestyle interventions you'll spring back just fine. You simply have to figure out what's the right lifestyle intervention for you.

Another cause of these types of digestion problems seems to be over-doing intermittent fasting, too. Pains me to say this, because I loved fasting for a while. But I had no trouble with my digestion until I started following a self-created regimen very similar to Leangains, swinging between days of very little food and days of high calorie/high protein/high fat. There is no documentation that I know of to back up my contention on this...just my experience and some anecdotes I read on the internet. However, we all know that too much intermittent fasting eventually tanks metabolism, which is why Peat is not a fan of it, and when your metabolism tanks everything slows down. For myself, I finally realized my "gall bladder/pancreatitis attacks" were actually partial gastroparesis, with some parts of my GI tract overperforming while others became immobilized. Gastroparesis is a hallmark of poor metabolism and dysfunction in energy production (i.e., metabolic slow down).

Anyway, too much fat in the diet and circulating FFA's are the real culprit in diabetes, NOT carbs. When I eat only carbs and no fat or protein my blood sugar normalizes within a week. Problem is I don't like eating like that...makes me want to sew my mouth shut. :meh: Main culprit in diabetes also seems to be the liver...some level of liver damage or dysfunction seems to create problems with glycogen storage and insulin signaling. I wish I had some links to offer you about this but I don't. My brainfog is pretty bad these days so I'm not so hot with retention and details to offer other people, although I function well enough to work on myself. If that makes sense. It's fairly easy to research, though. I'm repeating what I've read about in various places around the internet that jive with my personal experience.

If your liver is compromised it may not be able to handle such a big protein load, either. The byproducts of metabolizing protein are processed in the liver, and if the liver can't process them properly, they get recirculated. One of these byproducts is ammonia, which can wreak all kinds of havoc if you've got too much of it. When I first started Peat I had to cut back on my protein because of symptoms of ammonia overload. Mood problems, anxiety, and poor cognition are symptoms of ammonia overload.

You might consider cutting back on your fat. Very low fat has been a very successful intervention for me with regards to lowering blood sugar, helping my digestion, and helping with liver function. But keep your overall calories up. Without as much fat you'll be eating a higher volume of food.

You might also consider cutting back on protein, at least until your liver seems to be better. 80g of protein is not a bad intake. We're all different from the Leangains guy and even Ray Peat, so we have to tweak things to make them tolerable for us.

You also might consider taking digestive enzymes as well as bile acids with your meals. Jarrow makes a good bile acid product

Amazon.com: Jarrow Formulas Bile Acid Factors, Supports Absorption of Fats, 90 Caps: Health & Personal Care

and there are a lot of good digestive products out there. IME digestive enzymes are a little harder to recommend because everyone reacts to different brands in a different way. Try some and see what works for you.

Finally...500mg is A LOT of niacinimide. If you have energy production problems, too much niacin will put you in the tank. I don't know why, but so many people with energy problems can't take any form of niacin. I know Peat likes it, but as with everything, the reaction is within the individual, and some of us just don't react well to it. In my early days of recovery from CFS with a methylation protocol even 10mg of any form of niacin would give me symptoms and set me back hard. Niacin is a crucial vitamin, but people on methylation protocols use it to tamp down symptoms from overmethylation, so if you're not methylating properly taking so much of it could be a problem for you. These days I can take 50mg-100mg niacin or niacinimide without problems...but I still can't take it every day or I feel the bad effects. Please consider cutting your dose back to 100mg or less per day, at least for a while. Might even consider stopping it completely for a little while. Stopping won't hurt you and you can always start it up again if you think you miss it.

Sorry if this is tl;dr. But your case sounds a lot like what I went through last year, so thought I'd chime in. Digestive problems that mimic gallbladder attacks and pancreatitis are NO FUN. I wish you the best of luck. :)

Thanks for the thoughtful input!

I think your liver idea is probably pertinent; at the time of my pain outbreaks a year ago, tests showed really high levels of aspartate and alanine aminotransferase, as well as high bilirubin (delta variety). I did almost the exact same as you said, last year: reduced fats to almost nil for a month, and it went away. The only thing about last year I'd like to change is eating so much cereal. In order to get a lot of skim milk, I had to find some way to not make it so I'd "want to sew my mouth shut" as you so eloquently put it, heh heh. The only difference this time, again, is the whole brain fog feeling I can't shake.

I'm glad I found someone who has had such problems specifically on a Leangains-type regimen. I kind of rationalized going back to it because of the idea that I stop eating after a certain time, in my case about 3:30pm, which was perfect to stop me from feeling rotten during the mornings after eating a late meal. Also, as I really don't like eating, much (so much planning, since I basically have to cook everything to make sure ingredients are sound), the small window of time eating was ideal. I tried to mix it with Peat, but I guess with the large calorie intakes in one sitting, it really isn't compatible.

Thanks for the insight on niacinamide. I actually started on it because of some weird pain I have in my right knuckle when I make a fist which seems kind of arthritic, though I don't have it in any other bodily joint. In any case, it didn't really help, even in concert with pregnenolone, so maybe I will back off a bit.

If things don't improve, I may try the bile product you suggested; I'm just really leery about digestive supplements since I had a huge problem with some Betaine HCL about 3 years ago.

I really need to get tested for fatty liver.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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You are really skinny man, putting on 10-20 lbs would probably make you feel much much better and it would not be in the "unhealthy quadrant. Your bmi is around 20, which they will tell you is healthy, but I've seen anorexics with higher BMIs.

Ha, I know. That was really my whole purpose in getting back into weightlifting and Leangains. I was making pretty good progress for the 2 months I was doing it. Believe it or not, I gained over 10 lbs (Yeah, I was 133 at the beginning of the year). I'm not sure I have any kind of wasting problem as is seen in autoimmune diseases and type-1 diabetes, as I consistently have not eaten much over the years. Even with the lowered calories the last few weeks, I've only lost around 2 lbs.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Might be a good idea for peace of mind, plus it would rule out one thing, allowing you explore other potential causes. Ketone urine strips would be the cheapest and easiest option. If ketones aren't dumping into your urine then your glucose levels aren't getting excessively high. A glucose meter would give a more detailed looked. Wal-Mart carries a ReliOn Prime meter with dirt cheap testing strips. Online reviews are mixed, but I've found it to be right in line with more expensive meters that I've been able to try, and it was within a couple points of my lab tested fasting glucose. The meter and 25 strips would set you back about $15 if you're in the USA.

Sorry, forgot to put you in the last post; not trying to inflate my post count, honest!

I'll Czech into that. Always wanted to get one of these things as it seems like a no-brainer with Peat stuff, but the costs have made me shy away.
 

whodathunkit

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777
@explosionlord: here's another tl;dr for ya. :D

A glucose meter would give a more detailed looked. Wal-Mart carries a ReliOn Prime meter with dirt cheap testing strips.
This is a good rec and is the glucometer I use. It is indeed a good deal, and seems very reliable. Much better than the expensive piece of crap OneTouch I had before it.

I'm glad I found someone who has had such problems specifically on a Leangains-type regimen. I kind of rationalized going back to it because of the idea that I stop eating after a certain time, in my case about 3:30pm, which was perfect to stop me from feeling rotten during the mornings after eating a late meal. Also, as I really don't like eating, much (so much planning, since I basically have to cook everything to make sure ingredients are sound), the small window of time eating was ideal.
I know!! I loved this about fasting! I miss it, truth be told.

But I think what it can do to some of us if we fast too much (like Leangains guy recommends) is deplete your liver glycogen so that you can't manufacture enough energy for proper bile production and thus digestion. Without bile, cholesterol production gets thrown off...sometimes into making stones, but I think also sometimes into just screwing with certain hormones. Acetylcholine and cholesterol seem to work together on some receptors in the gut, so maybe if bile isn't present and cholesterol isn't being solubized properly, the gut receptors get thrown off, thereby causing dysmotility. Dysmotility being the cause of the attacks. For me it was like whatever was coming out of my common bile duct was getting stuck in my stomach. Acid and bile would build up. I'd need to burp but couldn't, and nothing moved. Then the pain (felt like burning) would start and still nothing moving. Sometimes I'd get movement way down the large intestine, but it would take as long as 8 horrible hours for me to feel anything shifting out of my stomach. These type of "attacks" also seem to happen to people when losing weight on calorie restricted diets, and in people with general energy problems like CFS patients. Mainstream medicine chalks it up to gallbladder dysfunction but IME it's more a problem of liver and general energy depletion that manifests in the gut. I dunno. Just theorizing/thinking out loud when it comes to th the ACh and cholesterol connection. I've been trying to figure this out since last year. I keep coming across information that provides clues but am still too brain-fog stupid to put it all together properly.

Even with the lowered calories the last few weeks, I've only lost around 2 lbs.
This is an indication of metabolism bottoming out from fasting too much.

I'm just really leery about digestive supplements since I had a huge problem with some Betaine HCL about 3 years ago.
Betaine HCL and bile are two completely different things. Pancreatic enzymes also aren't the same as Betaine. While you can overdo on bile, it's much more difficult than with HCL. I find pancreatic enzymes to be a little more touchy than bile to work with, but if you're cautious they can give great benefits. I'm not a fan of HCL myself, for the same reason as you: it still gives me problems. But as they say the dose makes the poison, and a lot of us types with weakened digestive systems need all of these, even if in small amounts. I find that the pancreatic enzymes can compensate for low HCL. Standard Process makes a really good digestive supp called "Zypan" with all three, but they jacked up the price to where I won't use it any more. YMMV. It's worth checking out, esp. at your stage of the game. It could help you.

Another thing I've been having success with is TUDCA. Tauroursodeoxychloric acid. Basically, synthesized ox bile with taurine hitched to it. Body builders use it to protect their livers when they're doing steroids, but turns out it's been researched quite a bit. It's got a lot of good benefits like protecting the liver cells from stress to the endoplasmic reticulum, and boosting endogenous bile production. I like it better than the Jarrow product, actually, but you need to research it well, including PubMed, before you start it. It's good stuff but IIRC there can be problems if overdoing it. And if you decide to take it start low and go slow. It's powerful stuff, and can convey a boost in energy or flu-like detox symptoms. I boosted my dose with good effect but also saw good effects at only 500mg/day for quite a while.

Between the TUDCA and the low doses of pancreatic enzymes I don't fear getting an attack any more. I don't take the Jarrow product with TUDCA, BTW. I still like it but went with TUDCA for the other potential benefits.

Also, if I'm eating very low fat I don't use the pancreatic enzymes. But I'm taking TUDCA daily for a while. I may break from it but not sure when I'll do that.

One more thing: doing preg or progesterone or any hormones, even whole thyroid, may not work so well if your liver is compromised. I had problems trying to take progesterone for years until I got my liver cleaned out a bit with very low fat diet. Now I love it. Preg is not the same as progesterone but it's a DHEA precursor and could be diverting to estrogen if metabolism is not ideal, and estrogen is metabolized by the liver. Just sayin'. It might not hurt to bag the preg for a while until you get on a more even keel. Or to see if you miss it.

So that's enough outta me. It's a subject near and dear, and for those N&D subjects I do tend to go on. :) Again, best of luck. Hope you can get it resolved soon!
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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@explosionlord: here's another tl;dr for ya. :D


This is a good rec and is the glucometer I use. It is indeed a good deal, and seems very reliable. Much better than the expensive piece of crap OneTouch I had before it.


I know!! I loved this about fasting! I miss it, truth be told.

But I think what it can do to some of us if we fast too much (like Leangains guy recommends) is deplete your liver glycogen so that you can't manufacture enough energy for proper bile production and thus digestion. Without bile, cholesterol production gets thrown off...sometimes into making stones, but I think also sometimes into just screwing with certain hormones. Acetylcholine and cholesterol seem to work together on some receptors in the gut, so maybe if bile isn't present and cholesterol isn't being solubized properly, the gut receptors get thrown off, thereby causing dysmotility. Dysmotility being the cause of the attacks. For me it was like whatever was coming out of my common bile duct was getting stuck in my stomach. Acid and bile would build up. I'd need to burp but couldn't, and nothing moved. Then the pain (felt like burning) would start and still nothing moving. Sometimes I'd get movement way down the large intestine, but it would take as long as 8 horrible hours for me to feel anything shifting out of my stomach. These type of "attacks" also seem to happen to people when losing weight on calorie restricted diets, and in people with general energy problems like CFS patients. Mainstream medicine chalks it up to gallbladder dysfunction but IME it's more a problem of liver and general energy depletion that manifests in the gut. I dunno. Just theorizing/thinking out loud when it comes to th the ACh and cholesterol connection. I've been trying to figure this out since last year. I keep coming across information that provides clues but am still too brain-fog stupid to put it all together properly.


This is an indication of metabolism bottoming out from fasting too much.


Betaine HCL and bile are two completely different things. Pancreatic enzymes also aren't the same as Betaine. While you can overdo on bile, it's much more difficult than with HCL. I find pancreatic enzymes to be a little more touchy than bile to work with, but if you're cautious they can give great benefits. I'm not a fan of HCL myself, for the same reason as you: it still gives me problems. But as they say the dose makes the poison, and a lot of us types with weakened digestive systems need all of these, even if in small amounts. I find that the pancreatic enzymes can compensate for low HCL. Standard Process makes a really good digestive supp called "Zypan" with all three, but they jacked up the price to where I won't use it any more. YMMV. It's worth checking out, esp. at your stage of the game. It could help you.

Another thing I've been having success with is TUDCA. Tauroursodeoxychloric acid. Basically, synthesized ox bile with taurine hitched to it. Body builders use it to protect their livers when they're doing steroids, but turns out it's been researched quite a bit. It's got a lot of good benefits like protecting the liver cells from stress to the endoplasmic reticulum, and boosting endogenous bile production. I like it better than the Jarrow product, actually, but you need to research it well, including PubMed, before you start it. It's good stuff but IIRC there can be problems if overdoing it. And if you decide to take it start low and go slow. It's powerful stuff, and can convey a boost in energy or flu-like detox symptoms. I boosted my dose with good effect but also saw good effects at only 500mg/day for quite a while.

Between the TUDCA and the low doses of pancreatic enzymes I don't fear getting an attack any more. I don't take the Jarrow product with TUDCA, BTW. I still like it but went with TUDCA for the other potential benefits.

Also, if I'm eating very low fat I don't use the pancreatic enzymes. But I'm taking TUDCA daily for a while. I may break from it but not sure when I'll do that.

One more thing: doing preg or progesterone or any hormones, even whole thyroid, may not work so well if your liver is compromised. I had problems trying to take progesterone for years until I got my liver cleaned out a bit with very low fat diet. Now I love it. Preg is not the same as progesterone but it's a DHEA precursor and could be diverting to estrogen if metabolism is not ideal, and estrogen is metabolized by the liver. Just sayin'. It might not hurt to bag the preg for a while until you get on a more even keel. Or to see if you miss it.

So that's enough outta me. It's a subject near and dear, and for those N&D subjects I do tend to go on. :) Again, best of luck. Hope you can get it resolved soon!

Nah, these tl;drs are great!

I'll give the bile a go. I never really considered looking up a name for the "phenomenon" that is Gastroparesis, so thanks for cluing me in on that. I've always believed my digestion is mightily slow and that some things may be hanging around in my stomach for a while.
 

Peater Piper

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If things don't improve, I may try the bile product you suggested; I'm just really leery about digestive supplements since I had a huge problem with some Betaine HCL about 3 years ago.
I've been considering supplementing Betaine HCL for what I suspect is low stomach acid. What problem did you have with it?
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Yikes dude...uhh...when you start eating more, be prepared for the proverbial extrement to hit the whirling ceiling device.

One would think, but I'll have to see to believe that my woeful 17-year streak of hovering around 140 lbs will end. My motility is probably also an issue with the low weight loss so far, as I eliminate maybe twice a week. I lost an add'l pound after going, last night (weighing the next morn).

I've been considering supplementing Betaine HCL for what I suspect is low stomach acid. What problem did you have with it?

It was just one of those things where one pill wasn't working, so I took two, still didn't work, so I took 3. Then it "worked" so hard I felt like I had a permanent hiatal hernia for like a week. Trying just one pill a few weeks later came with the same result, so my body apparently was like "forget this."

Are you having heartburn, currently, or do you just digest poorly? I later read that low acid seems to cause heartburn, though I don't know/remember the mechanism. The poor digestion I was having was my reason for trying the HCL.
 

whodathunkit

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Betaine HCL does the same thing to me, even in small doses...gives me heartburn. Pancreatic enzymes don't bother me as long as I don't overdo them...but beware because they can be overdone. I haven't pushed the envelope with bile acids so don't know of any threshold with them, although I'm sure there is one and that it varies with the individual. Zypan was really the best digestive product I ever tried as it combined a nice amount of HCL with the other stuff, and didn't give me heartburn. I still need more bile because bile does good things other than just digestion (bile binds endotoxin, for example, so low bile can contribute to problems with microbial overgrowth), but Zypan took care of the need for both pancreatic enzymes and betaine. Wish they hadn't jacked around with the OTC price.

IIRC the mechanism for low stomach acid and heartburn is the food sits in the stomach mixed with the acid, but isn't broken down well so it moves very slowly out of the stomach instead of moving at normal speed. This slowdown allows the acid/food mixture (chyme) to sit around and press against the flap that's supposed to stop it from getting into the esophagus, and when it presses a little of it can get in there and causing the burn and irritation. I can't remember the name of the esophageal flap now (maybe it's just esophageal flap :lol:), but if you have any anatomical weaknesses like a hiatal hernia or whatever, that can allow the chyme to escape into the esophagus, too.

Hope someone will correct me if I'm completely off base. But that's what I remember.
 

tara

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I never really considered looking up a name for the "phenomenon" that is Gastroparesis, so thanks for cluing me in on that. I've always believed my digestion is mightily slow and that some things may be hanging around in my stomach for a while.
I think gastroparesis is a normal adaptation to chronic undereating/famine. Can apparently be rough in transition, but often resolves after a bit with adequate food supply.
 

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