Did I Diabetes Myself? HYEEEELP!

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explosionlord

explosionlord

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I think gastroparesis is a normal adaptation to chronic undereating/famine. Can apparently be rough in transition, but often resolves after a bit with adequate food supply.

Yeah, I've had bouts where I eat next to nothing for days, then gorged myself after a while. All this over years, so no surprise I have difficulties.

whodathunkit, how did that Jarrow stuff work for you? I got Solaray Pancreatin, which has all the -ases for each macro, mostly because I had an attack after going heavy today (heavy in my case being 25 g) on fats. Do you think the bile acids work better than just the -ases, I should take them in combination, or just one or the other? My main fear with any of these digestive aids is that I become dependent and won't be able to digest well without them, eventually. Sprouts didn't have bile acids, the only liver stuff they had was ayurvedic herbs or whatever, which is why I grabbed pancreatin.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Maybe take a break from all the supplements?

I wasn't taking that many, but have backed off on the niacinamide and even pregnenolone. I still do my magnesium/baking soda OJ in the morn. I feel like I have to do the dolomite later in the day, since I almost always get way more phosphorus than calcium; still working on this.
 

whodathunkit

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whodathunkit, how did that Jarrow stuff work for you? I got Solaray Pancreatin, which has all the -ases for each macro, mostly because I had an attack after going heavy today (heavy in my case being 25 g) on fats. Do you think the bile acids work better than just the -ases, I should take them in combination, or just one or the other? My main fear with any of these digestive aids is that I become dependent and won't be able to digest well without them, eventually.
My understanding is that bile is essential for solubizing fat and making it digestible. Pancreatic enzymes work more on protein. From what you're telling us it's my opinion you definitely need the bile. Probably you need both. Up to you to do some extra research and decide what to try. Just go cautiously if you do try, so you can figure out how much you need without getting into more trouble.

IMO the fear of becoming dependent on supplements is probably a myth, unless there's some underlying genetic factor or irreparable damage. In which case you're stuck with supps anyway.

If we're to try to come off supps we do have to eat in a way that promotes the degree of health necessary to get our bodies to function properly so that we can stop the supps. If that makes sense. What way to eat that is supportive probably varies from individual to individual, within the caveat that we all need lots of carbs without a preponderance of fat. Also, best to cut PUFA carbs like wheat (buh-bye, Cheerios :D). There are lots of substitutions that can be made for wheat and grain...it just takes a little getting used to. For example, one of my favorite breakfast "cereals" is skim milk heated slowly with white rice and raisins. No fat needed, and tastes kind of like a rice pudding. You can get as much milk as you need with it. Good warm or cold. Easy to prepare in advance or on the spur of the moment, as long as you have rice ready. Potatoes can sub for pasta, with an alfredo or red sauce. And gnocchi is pretty easy to make and freeze. Etc.

I wasn't taking that many, but have backed off on the niacinamide and even pregnenolone. I still do my magnesium/baking soda OJ in the morn.
I'd advise bagging the baking soda. It's a digestion killer. Leaving that off may help you right there. Magnesium is probably good for you, though.

Also, dolomite has been consistently shown to have a high level of lead in it. Not recommended to use it. Some calcium supps in general can have high lead, but dolomite is especially high. Why don't you look for a good oyster shell calcium instead, if you feel you're not getting enough calcium from milk? Or you can make your own calcium from eggshells. I think you just bake them and grind them up. Google egg shell calcium and Danny Roddy and you'll probably find how to do it. Probably can also find it in this forum somewhere. But really, I've read things about the lead levels in dolomite for years. IMO it's just not worth taking the risk of ingesting that much extra lead when there's other options available.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Also, best to cut PUFA carbs like wheat (buh-bye, Cheerios :D). There are lots of substitutions that can be made for wheat and grain...it just takes a little getting used to. For example, one of my favorite breakfast "cereals" is skim milk heated slowly with white rice and raisins. No fat needed, and tastes kind of like a rice pudding. You can get as much milk as you need with it. Good warm or cold. Easy to prepare in advance or on the spur of the moment, as long as you have rice ready. Potatoes can sub for pasta, with an alfredo or red sauce. And gnocchi is pretty easy to make and freeze. Etc.

Ha, actually I have been eating one of those organic-y corn flake brands and Mom's Naturals cocoa rice krispies made w/ white rice. Even though it isn't wheat, not very Peatish and I want to get off, so I'll try the rice cereal idea. I've made gnocchi a lot in the past, but always with some amount of wheat. I guess I could try white rice flour in its place or something.

Also, dolomite has been consistently shown to have a high level of lead in it. Not recommended to use it. Some calcium supps in general can have high lead, but dolomite is especially high. Why don't you look for a good oyster shell calcium instead, if you feel you're not getting enough calcium from milk? Or you can make your own calcium from eggshells. I think you just bake them and grind them up. Google egg shell calcium and Danny Roddy and you'll probably find how to do it. Probably can also find it in this forum somewhere. But really, I've read things about the lead levels in dolomite for years. IMO it's just not worth taking the risk of ingesting that much extra lead when there's other options available.

Damn it; I looked for so long on this forum and the ASU Academic Search Premier for something about dolomite, and came up short. Bad search skillz, I reckon. I did see one study questioning the bioavailability of its calc/mag, but the results were very neutral and non-helpful. I bought it because it was cheap; get what you pay for, I guess. Funnily enough, I *just* started saving my eggshells, this morning, though I better get the bile soon because just the fat in the one egg I had gave me a small spell.
 

whodathunkit

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Wait what? My OneTouch is Crap??? Do you have a reference for this @whodathunkit?
:lol:

It's crap because the strips are so expensive. I mean, outrageously expensive, esp. compared to what the RelionPrime from WalMart costs. You can get 100 strips of RelionPrime for $18 at Walmart. And they're reliable. IMO the readings are more consistent than the OneTouch, in that when I think I have an aberrant result I can nail it down with fewer strips. Sometimes with a bad batch of OneTouch I'd have to use 5-6 strips.
 
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whodathunkit

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Damn it; I looked for so long on this forum and the ASU Academic Search Premier for something about dolomite, and came up short. Bad search skillz, I reckon. I did see one study questioning the bioavailability of its calc/mag, but the results were very neutral and non-helpful. I bought it because it was cheap; get what you pay for, I guess.
Well, to be fair, I've been hearing this about dolomite ever since I started dabbling in "alternative" health 30 years ago, so I"m not sure where the documentation is. It may even be a myth, but personally I doubt that.

I don't necessarily remember hearing bone powder is bad per se, but it's the industrial farming way we raise our livestock now. Lots of toxins, and lead goes into bones. Dolomite is made from the bones of industrially-farmed livestock slaughtered for their meat. Or maybe since lead goes into bone all bones are now contaminated. I dunno. IMO better safe than sorry. I've heard that calcium supps in general can have high lead content, but dolomite being just ground up bone is the worst.

BTW, I take calcium supps sometimes. I don't sweat it. I just stay away from dolomite. :)

I've made gnocchi a lot in the past, but always with some amount of wheat. I guess I could try white rice flour in its place or something.
Here's a good recipe:

The Sensitive Epicure: Gluten-Free Gnocchi with Tomato Sauce

I'm getting a jones for some gnocchi now. :lol:
 
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:lol:

It's crap because the strips are so expensive. I mean, outrageously expensive, esp. compared to what the RelionPrime from WalMart costs. You can get 100 strips of RelionPrime for $18 at Walmart. And they're reliable. IMO the readings are more consistent than the OneTouch, in that when I think I have an aberrant result I can nail it down with fewer strips. Sometimes with a bad batch of OneTouch I'd have to use 5-6 strips.

OMFG...so this morning I tested three times in a row just to see what would happen. I did all three tests on the same hand in under a minute and guess what? I had a 15 point difference! FIFTEEN!!!:wtf:

I officially hate my glucometer.


....sorry for the momentary hi-jack:blackeye:
 

tara

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Dolomite is made from the bones of industrially-farmed livestock slaughtered for their meat.
I thought dolomite was ground rock (mostly calcium magnesium carbonate)? Bone meal from beef can accumulate high lead too, I gather.
 

whodathunkit

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I thought dolomite was ground rock (mostly calcium magnesium carbonate)? Bone meal from beef can accumulate high lead too, I gather.
Ha. Jeez. Guess I was conflating two things from ancient days. Ooops. :oops:

Maybe there was a product on the shelves at the healthfood store where I used to work oh so long ago that mixed dolomite and bone meal. Or something. I dunno. Thanks for catching that.
 

tara

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Maybe there was a product on the shelves at the healthfood store where I used to work oh so long ago that mixed dolomite and bone meal. Or something. I dunno. Thanks for catching that.
I too have heard about risk of lead from dolomite (rock) as well as from bone meal.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Hi guys,

Wanted to update since I had a horrible "attack," yesterday. Sad thing is it was after trying your rice cereal idea, whodathunkit. I don't get at all what caused it, as there was no fat added and I've been doing decently on just carbs/proteins. I didn't add raisins, instead adding a little Great Lakes gelatin and raw honey. About 30 minutes later, I went into a deep, painful mode of that spell I can only call that "ketogenic/dulled senses" mode that lasted all day. I managed to get a quick appointment with a doc (wife works at Intel, and they have an on-site office) and got blood drawn, but she wasn't so sure what was wrong with me. Waiting for labs, but in the meantime she told me to "continue my current diet" and prescribed me Miralax. Yippee.

whodathunkit, I didn't yet get the liver bile. I've read that Natural Grocers has it, but I need to go by and Czech. If they don't, I guess I'll go the Amazon route. I did use the pancreatin during the attack yesterday, but I guess the damage was done and it didn't help. In fact, I couldn't bring myself to eat again at all, yesterday, I felt so lousy.

I'm now wondering if I really do have some form of diabetes or insulin problem; my pain last year in the region was really quite acute. There is still pain, this time, but it's much more of a burning, dull pain, and the worst symptom is definitely that "super dulled senses" feeling that I can't describe as anything other than terrifying. The only reason I equated it to last year's probs is it started the same- intense pain with any fat, but now that the pain has subsided a bit and this new symptom is here, I wonder if I'm dealing with the same thing, at all.

I just ate what I wasn't having many difficulties with, the OJ with mag and organic-y corn flakes with skim milk. I know, not Peaty, but I'll see how I feel after an hour. Hoping not to have the same nightmare as yesterday.
 

Richiebogie

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As you eat so little each day, your body may be wanting you to eat nutritionally rich foods like oysters and calves' liver.

You may be struggling to digest rice with only skim milk and honey in your system, whereas processed food like cornflakes has more vitamins and minerals added to it.

Your dulled senses feeling may be hunger.

Joel Wallach was a farmer turned vet turned doctor. From a young age he wondered why we supplement our livestock with all the vitamins and minerals they need, but not humans!

"Trust Me, I'm a DOCTOR!"  by Dr. Joel Wallach
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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As you eat so little each day, your body may be wanting you to eat nutritionally rich foods like oysters and calves' liver.

You may be struggling to digest rice with only skim milk and honey in your system, whereas processed food like cornflakes has more vitamins and minerals added to it.

Your dulled senses feeling may be hunger.

Joel Wallach was a farmer turned vet turned doctor. From a young age he wondered why we supplement our livestock with all the vitamins and minerals they need, but not humans!

"Trust Me, I'm a DOCTOR!" by Dr. Joel Wallach

Well, I was on a streak of 2500 to 3400 cals before all this, and one day something just cracked. Same thing happened, last year.

Those cornflakes, again while not my fave choice, aren't fortified or anything, just corn meal & corn flour with juice for flavor.

Today has been pretty okay, though. I have taken pancreatin every meal and had no problems, so far. Still only at 1200 cals, but there's time yet.
 

whodathunkit

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Wow, @explosionlord, I'm really sorry to about your attack. Gut pain is the absolute worst. :(:nailbiting: I NEVER want another attack...one of my major fears in life. I hope you don't have any more of them.

As far as your rice concoction...honey and gelatin can be problematic for people with digestion issues. My mother has a hiatal hernia and honey gives her heartburn. Lots of people have trouble with gelatin, esp. if it's not heated well or cooked. Gelatin + milk might also have been too much protein. It might have been the rice, but I would doubt it. However, it is possible.

I don't get at all what caused it, as there was no fat added and I've been doing decently on just carbs/proteins.
It's not just about the fat. Please try not to fixate on that, although it's easy to because most of what we read about these attacks focuses on fat, and also because it seems like fat is the main precipitator of symptoms. But fat causes problems only when there's a deeper problem. Fat may precipitate symptoms sometimes or a preponderance of times, but it's really about GI tract dysmotility caused by energy dysfunction. My pattern of attack seemed to be fat related but then turned out to be somewhat idiosyncratic...seems like when I think I have the pattern nailed down (It's the fat! or It's the honey! etc.), it changes.

Bile is needed for more than just digestion of fat...it does other things in the body including binding endotoxin so it can be excreted, as well as some stuff to and with acetylcholine, which is very much involved with gut motility. It does things to cholesterol that involve receptors in the gut that work with aceytlcholine to keep things going. Etc. I'm so sorry I can't elucidate it all . I know it's lame to keep begging brain fog but that's where I'm at. My memory is horrible at the moment, as is my ability to express myself precisely. What I'm saying is researchable on Google, though. I'm getting better to the point where I can start keeping track of links again so maybe I'll do better at explaining things in the future. But for now, that's it. The major point being, I suspect you need bile more than pancreatin or HCL. That is, pancreatin alone isn't going to help fix you. It might help you digest in short term but it could turn on you. Too much pancreatin gives me problems. So far bile hasn't given me any problems. From what I've read and experienced, IMO bile will probably go farther in helping you to resolve your problem as well as relieve your acute symptoms.

But there's probably a lot of other work involved. It will take researching and trying stuff on your part. IME this is a complex problem, not at all as simple as mainstream medicine would have us believe. It's not just about the pancreas or gall bladder: take it out or modify and that's it. Nope. It's about the whole body and energy. It's probably best to do what keeps you symptom free in the short term (like cornflakes, etc.) but look for permanent or at least longer-term solutions. Healthy solutions. Myself, I seem to have gotten my attacks and digestion in better order, primarily through use of various bile supplements, "no PUFA" diet modification, and strategic use of stuff like pancreatic enzymes (I don't use those every day...they're very powerful and cause me problems with overuse, especially when my food intake isn't high), but I'm still searching for a permanent fix. And I realize that supplements like exogenous bile might actually be part of my permanent fix, although my goal based on my experience so far is to be able to do without them. I'm currently trying things like modifying bad gut bacteria and soaking up the toxic byproducts of bad bacteria (i.e., endotoxin). You can do some research to see what's right for you to try. I'm giving you some clues but can't plot your course for you...nor can anyone but yourself. We're all just too different.
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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Wow, @explosionlord, I'm really sorry to about your attack. Gut pain is the absolute worst. :(:nailbiting: I NEVER want another attack...one of my major fears in life. I hope you don't have any more of them.

As far as your rice concoction...honey and gelatin can be problematic for people with digestion issues. My mother has a hiatal hernia and honey gives her heartburn. Lots of people have trouble with gelatin, esp. if it's not heated well or cooked. Gelatin + milk might also have been too much protein. It might have been the rice, but I would doubt it. However, it is possible.


It's not just about the fat. Please try not to fixate on that, although it's easy to because most of what we read about these attacks focuses on fat, and also because it seems like fat is the main precipitator of symptoms. But fat causes problems only when there's a deeper problem. Fat may precipitate symptoms sometimes or a preponderance of times, but it's really about GI tract dysmotility caused by energy dysfunction. My pattern of attack seemed to be fat related but then turned out to be somewhat idiosyncratic...seems like when I think I have the pattern nailed down (It's the fat! or It's the honey! etc.), it changes.

Bile is needed for more than just digestion of fat...it does other things in the body including binding endotoxin so it can be excreted, as well as some stuff to and with acetylcholine, which is very much involved with gut motility. It does things to cholesterol that involve receptors in the gut that work with aceytlcholine to keep things going. Etc. I'm so sorry I can't elucidate it all . I know it's lame to keep begging brain fog but that's where I'm at. My memory is horrible at the moment, as is my ability to express myself precisely. What I'm saying is researchable on Google, though. I'm getting better to the point where I can start keeping track of links again so maybe I'll do better at explaining things in the future. But for now, that's it. The major point being, I suspect you need bile more than pancreatin or HCL. That is, pancreatin alone isn't going to help fix you. It might help you digest in short term but it could turn on you. Too much pancreatin gives me problems. So far bile hasn't given me any problems. From what I've read and experienced, IMO bile will probably go farther in helping you to resolve your problem as well as relieve your acute symptoms.

But there's probably a lot of other work involved. It will take researching and trying stuff on your part. IME this is a complex problem, not at all as simple as mainstream medicine would have us believe. It's not just about the pancreas or gall bladder: take it out or modify and that's it. Nope. It's about the whole body and energy. It's probably best to do what keeps you symptom free in the short term (like cornflakes, etc.) but look for permanent or at least longer-term solutions. Healthy solutions. Myself, I seem to have gotten my attacks and digestion in better order, primarily through use of various bile supplements, "no PUFA" diet modification, and strategic use of stuff like pancreatic enzymes (I don't use those every day...they're very powerful and cause me problems with overuse, especially when my food intake isn't high), but I'm still searching for a permanent fix. And I realize that supplements like exogenous bile might actually be part of my permanent fix, although my goal based on my experience so far is to be able to do without them. I'm currently trying things like modifying bad gut bacteria and soaking up the toxic byproducts of bad bacteria (i.e., endotoxin). You can do some research to see what's right for you to try. I'm giving you some clues but can't plot your course for you...nor can anyone but yourself. We're all just too different.

Yeah, I appreciate the time you're taking in answering me!

I did order the bile, as apparently my Natural Grocers doesn't have that product. I got my labs back, and as typical everything was "normal" (In their definition of normal ranges, though I didn't see anything that raised a red flag. AST and ALT were low, unlike the time of the attacks last year). Still, both tests she ordered didn't have anything about ketones, but oh well.

I agree it was probably honey; I had had rice as I told earlier in this thread when I had low-fat sushi I made on Sat. I also had gelatin during these trying days, so maybe something about the combo of the three, who knows?

I feel you on your endotoxin struggles. I've had a hell of a time getting motility, down there; tried Ray's carrot salads, cascara, even psyllium husk to no avail. Seriously the only things that have worked are osmotic laxatives like the doc prescribed (and which I hate), or eating a high volume of food (which works initially, but then stops). I kind of have taken Ray's advice about water, that we shouldn't drink too much, too seriously over the years. That is, I don't think I have ever gotten enough water with my fiber.

Anyway, with the pancreatin today was pretty good. I only got 1700~ calories, but had good calcium:phosphorus and +80g, of protein. Hoping with the bile I can start to normalize and slowly introduce fats. I know you say not to fixate on them, but I'm still quite scared about "digging in," even when I get the bile.
 

whodathunkit

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I know you say not to fixate on them, but I'm still quite scared about "digging in," even when I get the bile.
What I meant about not focusing on fat was that they're not the sole cause of this problem, and shouldn't be focused on as such. Rather, focus on getting to the root of the problem and not just focus on cutting fat out of the diet. Cutting fat is a band-aid, and probably one that won't always work in the long run. It's not realistic, anyway. Everybody slips and unless you've corrected the problem at the root, you'll continue to get symptoms when you overeat it. Not fun. The goal is to be able to eat whatever we want, within the caveat of eating a balanced diet comprised of healthy food that is not predominantly fat and/or PUFA fat.

I didn't mean ignore fat as an issue entirely, even when you get the bile. Fat is usually the main precipitator of symptoms at your stage of the game. Please *do not* "dig in", at least for the time being. :)

Good luck. Let us know how you do!
 
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explosionlord

explosionlord

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What I meant about not focusing on fat was that they're not the sole cause of this problem, and shouldn't be focused on as such. Rather, focus on getting to the root of the problem and not just focus on cutting fat out of the diet. Cutting fat is a band-aid, and probably one that won't always work in the long run. It's not realistic, anyway. Everybody slips and unless you've corrected the problem at the root, you'll continue to get symptoms when you overeat it. Not fun. The goal is to be able to eat whatever we want, within the caveat of eating a balanced diet comprised of healthy food that is not predominantly fat and/or PUFA fat.

I didn't mean ignore fat as an issue entirely, even when you get the bile. Fat is usually the main precipitator of symptoms at your stage of the game. Please *do not* "dig in", at least for the time being. :)

Good luck. Let us know how you do!

Thanks for the support!

I've been doing mostly okay since Wednesday, when I posted. I did notice that OJ seems to be the only thing that causes stomach upset, though mild, so I stopped for a bit.

I did wake up this morning (Saturday) to a radiating numbness/slight pain in my lower back coupled with nausea, almost making me feel like vomiting. This really makes me worried about my pancreas. I'm going to start experimenting with high-dose aspirin and vitamin K, just in case. The numbness and nausea went away on their own a bit after rising, and I managed to eat a couple'a microwaved potatoes, light cream cheese, and coffee with cream without incident, but I'm still worried about this morning's acute numbness. I'm gonna see a GI doc on 5 Aug, so I'll see if he will run some pancreas-specific tests, as the last doc did not.
 

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