Did Gbolduev Have Any Evidence To Back Up His Claims About PH?

[Kartoffel]

"...so it happens that starvation, or radiation, or estrogen will all shift our oxidation from sugar to fat....
One of the special problems of fasting, if you've been eating Polyunsaturated fats in the past is that it gives you a pure diet of polyunsaturated fats with a terrific amount of oxidation byproducts when you go into a starvation state...
They specifically spoil the ability of the enzymes to produce energy from...from anything, especially from sugar, and a failure to produce energy is almost exactly the definition of stress, anything that makes you lack energy IS stress. It turns on the whole system of responses to stress."

from KMUD: 12-12 Dementia, Progesterone, Fasting, Fish Oil, Testosterone, Red Light

If you don't agree with this, then why are you even on the Ray Peat Forum? Just to argue?

What kind of argument is that? People are not here to agree with everything someone says but to argue and think critically. Besides, Ray has said numerous times that fasting can be beneficial in some situations because it provides temporary relief from endotoxins, etc. He once mentioned a story about a very sick dog that recovered from some sort of cancer by just lying around for weeks. Everyone thought he was just going to die, and so they let him rest. Instead he just got up one day and was fine. Sometimes, eating is the cause of stress and causes you to lack energy.

 

[alywest]

What kind of argument is that? People are not here to agree with everything someone says but to argue and think critically. Besides, Ray has said numerous times that fasting can be beneficial in some situations because it provides temporary relief from endotoxins, etc. He once mentioned a story about a very sick dog that recovered from some sort of cancer by just lying around for weeks. Everyone thought he was just going to die, and so they let him rest. Instead he just got up one day and was fine. Sometimes, eating is the cause of stress and causes you to lack energy.

I agree that Ray Peat has said if you are sick fasting can give you a break from the toxins in food, and that can be beneficial. Usually when I am really sick I can't eat, it wouldn't even stay down and I have no appetite. However, intentionally starving yourself when you are actually hungry is not the same thing at all. I think you have to be honest with yourself and your body when it comes to foods, and pay attention to how they make you feel. Milk from a particular dairy might cause some issues for you, etc. A sick organism is not the same as a healthy organism in terms of energy requirements. Drinking tons of water is also something that people deem "healthy" when for particular people it can be quite damaging and even lead to death if unchecked. I think if you are forcing your body to convert to fat oxidation and to free PUFA into the bloodstream that is pretty contradictory to anything Peat would suggest. Some people feel good for a short while when fasting because of all the stress hormones and the "high" that some people get from them, however, in the long run if you are forcing your body to oxidize fat and depleting your glycogen stores, you're going to be in a really bad place after a while. Perhaps the young people on this forum can survive and even convince themselves that they're "thriving" on that kind of methodology, but when you get to your late 30's and 40's, let me know how it's helping you then.

 

[Kartoffel]

Completely agree. Your answer just sounded very categorical

 

[alywest]

I don't believe that thinking critically involves ignoring scientific facts. If you think Peat is a hack, then you will think that fat oxidation is cool and he's totally wrong. People here are thinkers, and they are gaining an understanding of things that they wouldn't understand otherwise if we were simply forced to swallow everything mainstream medicine tells us. Ignoring sound advice from a PhD who has spent decades unravelling human metabolism is folly, and using his understanding as a platform from which to make sense of your own dietary needs is a thinking activity.

 

[Tarmander]

True, it is kinda sad to see how he is using all these poor guys, who have already suffered enough, to bolster his own ego. Sooner or later they will see through his bull****, hopefully before they do too much harm to themselves. Btw, hypothyroid people are low in HCL, and thus taking some is likely to improve your digestion, kill problematic bacteria, and increase mineral absorption. That certainly makes more sense than "it's lowering you CO2".

How much Betaine HCL are you taking?

Quite a bit, maybe 6 grams per meal. I know it does all that stuff as well, and being hypo, that is probably helping. However I liked the cause and effect with blood tests, how my veinous Co2 was in the low 30s, and then over about a month it dropped to the low 20s with just changing the HCL. So I like that straightforward explanation, and I think Gbold was right on point with that.

The 21 fast guy was consuming some calories on a bruess fast. The reason people quickly plan their next one is because most find the fast to be beneficial.

I tried a 5 day water fast. It went much better than I expected and I look forward to trying a 10 day water fast in the summer. Sure it goes against Peat, but he's not god and it's easy to experiment with. Isn't that the Peatiest thing of all?

I think what you are doing is risky, and no I do not think what you are doing is the Peatiest thing of all. Sometimes members, especially new members, equate Peat with this sense that anything goes, because experimentation is the highest knowledge, and so how on earth can you criticize someone else's point of view...having values is somehow authoritarian, and we are all about acceptance of all different ideas because that is Peat and experimentation. No, just no. Peat has talked many times about the harm in fasting, and it lines up with my experience, and the experiences I have viewed in other people.

I think the risks and rewards of fasting have been explained and gone over a few times. There is obviously something there that can help people. I have personally done a 6 day water fast in my early 20s, and it was enough for me. Maybe people do plan their next fast because they are beneficial, but I personally don't believe that. I think fasting attracts a certain type, and the feelings of spiritual clarity, emotional stability (ie lack of anxiety and fear), and cleanness are addicting. I fall into that type to a certain extent. They want to get back on the fast because of how good they felt on it, not realizing they are burning themselves up to get there. But that is my personal take, and people are going to do what they are going to do.

 

[alywest]

I think what you are doing is risky, and no I do not think what you are doing is the Peatiest thing of all. Sometimes members, especially new members, equate Peat with this sense that anything goes, because experimentation is the highest knowledge, and so how on earth can you criticize someone else's point of view...having values is somehow authoritarian, and we are all about acceptance of all different ideas because that is Peat and experimentation. No, just no. Peat has talked many times about the harm in fasting, and it lines up with my experience, and the experiences I have viewed in other people.

I think the risks and rewards of fasting have been explained and gone over a few times. There is obviously something there that can help people. I have personally done a 6 day water fast, and it was enough for me. Maybe people do plan their next fast because they are beneficial, but I personally don't believe that. I think fasting attracts a certain type, and the feelings of spiritual clarity, emotional stability (ie lack of anxiety and fear), and cleanness are addicting. I fall into that type to a certain extent. They want to get back on the fast because of how good they felt on it, not realizing they are burning themselves up to get there. But that is my personal take, and people are going to do what they are going to do.

The idea that people who fast are a certain type is an interesting thought, I think it also goes hand-in-hand with the anorexic and bulimic pathology. There is something to that need to feel "clean," perhaps from some deep rooted self-hatred that makes one feel dirty because of fat and any other so-called impurities (like sugar!) It's interesting because we have been brainwashed to believe that saturated fats and sugar are "bad" and things like water and fish oil are salutary. So opposite. And the most ironic thing is that the starver effectively forces him or herself to fuel the body with rancid PUFAs! It's almost like a symptom of the lies that our so-called health system is built on.

 

[Tarmander]

The idea that people who fast are a certain type is an interesting thought, I think it also goes hand-in-hand with the anorexic and bulimic pathology. There is something to that need to feel "clean," perhaps from some deep rooted self-hatred that makes one feel dirty because of fat and any other so-called impurities (like sugar!) It's interesting because we have been brainwashed to believe that saturated fats and sugar are "bad" and things like water and fish oil are salutary. So opposite. And the most ironic thing is that the starver effectively forces him or herself to fuel the body with rancid PUFAs! It's almost like a symptom of the lies that our so-called health system is built on.

Yes, I definitely agree. My foray into health in the first few years was all about getting the "bad" out. Detox detox detox. I think those few years have maybe set me up for decades of pain. Time will tell. People like gbold, and Lawrence Wilson attract that type. Same thing that Scientology does, with getting out the alien demons or whatever they are doing. Same with anorexia and bulimia. Peat was a big shift for me as it focuses on building up what the body needs, and how it works.

 

[Kartoffel]

Quite a bit, maybe 6 grams per meal. I know it does all that stuff as well, and being hypo, that is probably helping. However I liked the cause and effect with blood tests, how my veinous Co2 was in the low 30s, and then over about a month it dropped to the low 20s with just changing the HCL. So I like that straightforward explanation, and I think Gbold was right on point with that.



I think what you are doing is risky, and no I do not think what you are doing is the Peatiest thing of all. Sometimes members, especially new members, equate Peat with this sense that anything goes, because experimentation is the highest knowledge, and so how on earth can you criticize someone else's point of view...having values is somehow authoritarian, and we are all about acceptance of all different ideas because that is Peat and experimentation. No, just no. Peat has talked many times about the harm in fasting, and it lines up with my experience, and the experiences I have viewed in other people.

I think the risks and rewards of fasting have been explained and gone over a few times. There is obviously something there that can help people. I have personally done a 6 day water fast in my early 20s, and it was enough for me. Maybe people do plan their next fast because they are beneficial, but I personally don't believe that. I think fasting attracts a certain type, and the feelings of spiritual clarity, emotional stability (ie lack of anxiety and fear), and cleanness are addicting. I fall into that type to a certain extent. They want to get back on the fast because of how good they felt on it, not realizing they are burning themselves up to get there. But that is my personal take, and people are going to do what they are going to do.

It seems logical that your venous CO2 goes down if you ingest that much HCL. Six grams per meal(!) is a huge amount. Low 30s is already low, but low 20s sounds like severe hypocapnia. Have you ever measured your oxygen saturation? You still take that much HCL?

Explanations are not necessarily correct just because they are straighforward. More often than not, the straightforward answer is simplistic and wrong.I think the reason Gbol attracts so many desperate people is because all his answers are "starighforward". He can talk about complex interactions and matrices all he wants, essentially all his theories are mechanistic and simplistic cause and effect ideas like "tanking potassium" or "this goes up than this goes down".

 

[jaa]

Quite a bit, maybe 6 grams per meal. I know it does all that stuff as well, and being hypo, that is probably helping. However I liked the cause and effect with blood tests, how my veinous Co2 was in the low 30s, and then over about a month it dropped to the low 20s with just changing the HCL. So I like that straightforward explanation, and I think Gbold was right on point with that.



I think what you are doing is risky, and no I do not think what you are doing is the Peatiest thing of all. Sometimes members, especially new members, equate Peat with this sense that anything goes, because experimentation is the highest knowledge, and so how on earth can you criticize someone else's point of view...having values is somehow authoritarian, and we are all about acceptance of all different ideas because that is Peat and experimentation. No, just no. Peat has talked many times about the harm in fasting, and it lines up with my experience, and the experiences I have viewed in other people.

I think the risks and rewards of fasting have been explained and gone over a few times. There is obviously something there that can help people. I have personally done a 6 day water fast in my early 20s, and it was enough for me. Maybe people do plan their next fast because they are beneficial, but I personally don't believe that. I think fasting attracts a certain type, and the feelings of spiritual clarity, emotional stability (ie lack of anxiety and fear), and cleanness are addicting. I fall into that type to a certain extent. They want to get back on the fast because of how good they felt on it, not realizing they are burning themselves up to get there. But that is my personal take, and people are going to do what they are going to do.

That's a reasonable response. FWIW I don't think following a Peat approach is optimal and that comment was tongue-in-cheek. I think he has a lot of useful ideas and some bad ones as well. People should take what they find useful and discard the rest.

As for fasting itself, I agree that it can be easy to be tricked by feel-good feelings into thinking something is good for you, and this is a risk with fasting. And too much of something could be a bad thing. More is not necessarily better, and certainly isn't in extreme cases (you don't want to fast forever and you probably don't want to fast for 30 days on then 30 days off). But at a minimum there seems to be good reasons to do it with some minimum frequency to promote autophagy and weight loss. And it may serve as a reset or way to re-balance your system (less confident in this).

 

[sladerunner69]

True, it is kinda sad to see how he is using all these poor guys, who have already suffered enough, to bolster his own ego. Sooner or later they will see through his bull****, hopefully before they do too much harm to themselves. Btw, hypothyroid people are low in HCL, and thus taking some is likely to improve your digestion, kill problematic bacteria, and increase mineral absorption. That certainly makes more sense than "it's lowering you CO2".

How much Betaine HCL are you taking?

Actually I have post finasteride syndrome and for whatever reason the fasting does help tremendously. I think that PFS includes serious nerve or receptor dysfunction, epigenetically, and fasting can actually "reset" the receptors, which is perhaps the only benefit (aside from intense fat loss). I agree that Gbol is probably bolstering his own ego to some degree, and a large part of me despises him, but his mineral protocols do seem to help the people who try it as well. I think the metabolic alkilosis where potassium cannot get into the cell, which is something Peat actually talked about, is at play, and minerals are one way to deal with it.

 

[Tarmander]

It seems logical that your venous CO2 goes down if you ingest that much HCL. Six grams per meal(!) is a huge amount. Low 30s is already low, but low 20s sounds like severe hypocapnia. Have you ever measured your oxygen saturation? You still take that much HCL?

Explanations are not necessarily correct just because they are straighforward. More often than not, the straightforward answer is simplistic and wrong.I think the reason Gbol attracts so many desperate people is because all his answers are "starighforward". He can talk about complex interactions and matrices all he wants, essentially all his theories are mechanistic and simplistic cause and effect ideas like "tanking potassium" or "this goes up than this goes down".

The low 30s was on the high end of Co2 range, and 20s is right in the middle. Maybe we are working with different ranges. My SP02 I just measured at 97. I take anywhere from 10-18grams of HCL a day total with meals. My Kidney function has also shaped up in this time, so I think I have good reason to think I am on the right track. Better kidney function is an aim of mine, and I believe I am moving towards that.

Of course explanations are not necessarily correct just because they are straightforward. Everything is complicated, but that does not mean you go with "well this is so complex, all our ideas are flawed, so who knows what works and what doesn't." I work off the basis that yes, what I believe is probably flawed and wrong, but it is the best thing I have as a map, so I am going to use it until I get a better map. Just because the map is flawed does not mean you throw away the map. If you can offer something that changes that map, I am all ears, like I said originally. But I won't go down this rabbit hole with you deconstructing everything until it is all too complex to know up from down.

 

[Kartoffel]

Actually I have post finasteride syndrome and for whatever reason the fasting does help tremendously. I think that PFS includes serious nerve or receptor dysfunction, epigenetically, and fasting can actually "reset" the receptors, which is perhaps the only benefit (aside from intense fat loss). I agree that Gbol is probably bolstering his own ego to some degree, and a large part of me despises him, but his mineral protocols do seem to help the people who try it as well. I think the metabolic alkilosis where potassium cannot get into the cell, which is something Peat actually talked about, is at play, and minerals are one way to deal with it.

Really? I haven't read many success stories. On the hackstasis forum, all I see is people constantly trying the newest version of his protocol over and over again. He claimed that he recovered from PFS within a few days. If his understanding of biochemical interactions is as profound as he claims, and his protocoll as sound, I would expect to see a few people recovering. I actually think most of his rudimentary knowledge comes from Peat, but then he gets stuck because all his thoughts are based on the Bronsted-Lowry scheme, and he doesn't understand Lewis acids. It is this simplictic thinking that leads to concepts like "resetting receptors" or "increasing pCO2 will make bicarbonate go up"

 

[Kartoffel]

The low 30s was on the high end of Co2 range, and 20s is right in the middle. Maybe we are working with different ranges. My SP02 I just measured at 97. I take anywhere from 10-18grams of HCL a day total with meals. My Kidney function has also shaped up in this time, so I think I have good reason to think I am on the right track. Better kidney function is an aim of mine, and I believe I am moving towards that.

Of course explanations are not necessarily correct just because they are straightforward. Everything is complicated, but that does not mean you go with "well this is so complex, all our ideas are flawed, so who knows what works and what doesn't." I work off the basis that yes, what I believe is probably flawed and wrong, but it is the best thing I have as a map, so I am going to use it until I get a better map. Just because the map is flawed does not mean you throw away the map. If you can offer something that changes that map, I am all ears, like I said originally. But I won't go down this rabbit hole with you deconstructing everything until it is all too complex to know up from down.

No, you don't need a correct explanation to see that something works. That was not my argument. I wanted to stress that you shouldn't believe that a causal explanation is correct just because you take something and it makes you feel better. Correlation is not causation. I am glad the HCL works so well for you, and I completely agree with you that you should just continue with something, if it works. I would be careful with the explanations, though, because you might run into problems when something suddely stops working and you need to adjust what you are doing based on false theories.

 

[alywest]

Actually I have post finasteride syndrome and for whatever reason the fasting does help tremendously. I think that PFS includes serious nerve or receptor dysfunction, epigenetically, and fasting can actually "reset" the receptors, which is perhaps the only benefit (aside from intense fat loss). I agree that Gbol is probably bolstering his own ego to some degree, and a large part of me despises him, but his mineral protocols do seem to help the people who try it as well. I think the metabolic alkilosis where potassium cannot get into the cell, which is something Peat actually talked about, is at play, and minerals are one way to deal with it.

Perhaps the PFS people truly do qualify as "sick" which could potentially explain why food could be too much for their bodies to handle. Hypothyroid sufferers are also on the sicker end of the spectrum which is why Peat actually has lower protein recommendations for us until our health is further restored. The body can only handle so many toxins that inevitably come with the food supply, so perhaps the sicker the organism the less food can be tolerated. For instance when you're sick with the flu, food is actually intolerable. Of course you still try to force down fluids because no one believes a living organism can survive long without fluids. Perhaps what's really going on is that you're eliminating all toxins by not eating, and although you're liberating stored PUFA, it's actually less harmful than taking on more toxins from the food supply. Have you tried eating only foods or milk or juice that is truly as toxin free as possible?

 

[Wagner83]

I think Peat spoke favorable of some form fasting for particular people and with things like orange juice (possibly minerals rich drinks as well) being the only food, didn't he?

 

[Lucenzo01]

The orthomolecular approach to PFS is extremly underrated. I recommended to a client, PFS sufferer the basics of the Abraham Hoffer with a Peaty approach. With each meal: 1 gram of niacinamide, 2 grams of Vitamin C and 300 mg of riboflavin. The progression was extremey slow the first week. So much he though it was placebo. He sticked with the protocol and after the third week he started to feel everyday better. Two months in he was feeling good and I recommended him to add the fat-solubles. He is doing it right now and he is feeling "better than ever". His physical progression has been amazing. I will contact with him so maybe he can speak directly with you here.

 

[alywest]

The orthomolecular approach to PFS is extremly underrated. I recommended to a client, PFS sufferer the basics of the Abraham Hoffer with a Peaty approach. With each meal: 1 gram of niacinamide, 2 grams of Vitamin C and 300 mg of riboflavin. The progression was extremey slow the first week. So much he though it was placebo. He sticked with the protocol and after the third week he started to feel everyday better. Two months in he was feeling good and I recommended him to add the fat-solubles. He is doing it right now and he is feeling "better than ever". His physical progression has been amazing. I will contact with him so maybe he can speak directly with you here.

 

[alywest]

"The kidneys can produce large amounts of carbon dioxide and ammonia, in the process of preventing the loss of electrolytes, while allowing acid to be lost in the urine. The ammonia is produced by the breakdown of protein. During stress or fasting, the loss of tissue protein can be minimized by supplementing the minerals, potassium, sodium, magnesium, and calcium. Salt restriction can cause aldosterone to increase, and excess aldosterone causes potassium loss, and increases the use of protein to form ammonia (Norby, et al., 1976; Snart and Taylor, 1978; Welbourne and Francoeur, 1977)."

Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging

 

[Dhair]

Someone is going to end up seriously hurting themselves with one of these 3 week fasts. My fear is that it will make one of these PFS sufferers suicidal or psychotic and they will end up taking their own life because they are already mentally compromised. Gbolduev's Clomid recommendation could lead to similar results because it is basically a synthetic estrogen with very harsh mental side effects for men.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Someone is going to end up seriously hurting themselves with one of these 3 week fasts. My fear is that it will make one of these PFS sufferers suicidal or psychotic and they will end up taking their own life because they are already mentally compromised. Gbolduev's Clomid recommendation could lead to similar results because it is basically a synthetic estrogen with very harsh mental side effects for men.

But you could say the same thing for other things like "someone is going to end up seriously hurting themselves with one of these.." fill in the blank: exogenous hormone supplement, exogenous unregulated/street hormone supplement, other supplements like mega dosing fat-solubles, diet, medication/non-supplement drug use, things like co2 tanks, ozone therapy, homeopathy, etc.

This is why there is only one legal clinic that does medically-supervised fasts in the US because most people don't understand it and don't even know what the true definition of fasting is and the purpose of doing it. There is a taboo against it. Which is fine, it's not for everyone but if they don't like it but are simultaneously claiming to be into alternative health strategies then it's their loss, even if they don't want/need to do one themsevles. But as always we have to be specific. A person could use the word "fast" but also advise using methods/supplements that aren't in the professionals protocol. And if something bad happens then people blame the "fasting" but ignore the nuance in where the person was wrong. There is a professional protocol. I witnessed it myself in person. A random person on the net giving you advice on how to do something that is out of protocol is just that, out of protocol and wrong, and likely to produce negative effects.

It was probably my post here that gbold even came across the concept at all. He mentioned the word "fasting" before but he was likely talking about intermittent, not medically-supervised water-only in appropriately selected individuals.

.