Did Gbolduev Have Any Evidence To Back Up His Claims About PH?

[Mito]

@Mito did you look at what he said for proteins?

Nothing specific about protein that I recall. He talks a lot about ROS (reactive oxygen species) being a key regulator of cellular energy metabolism. Excess ROS has different causes maybe including problems with protein.
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/08/24/insulin-resistance-isnt-all-about-carbs-and-insulin/

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Weird. All the people I know personally, who tried fasting for more than 2-3 days, said they felt like ***t, couldn't sleep, focus, or work/study. I know no one that was able to continue it for more than 10 days. Probably they were all fast oxidizers, which is odd since the great gbol said that most people are slow oxdizers. As far as I can see the categories "slow" and "fast" oxidizers don't relate to anything in the real world. Can you briefly outline what distinguishes one from the other?

I know people who said they tried things too. Doesn't mean they did it right. I doubt the people you know are knowledgable about how to properly do a water-only fast. I say that not to sound like a doosh (yes that's how I spell it) but simply because it's true. People can say anything. The many types of "fasts" that people do are not really fasts. They often include eating windows, lemon juice, maple syrup and pills. You said they couldn't "work." You're not supposed to work while fasting. You're supposed to rest. That's a part of the fast. Also, if someone claims to feel like crap while "fasting" that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's called a healing crisis. But they would only know that if they researched water-only fasting. The first 2-3 days are supposed to be hard anyway, because you're not yet in ketosis.

As far as gbold's slow vs. fast oxidizer thing, tyw debunked it in one sentence:

"I see zero utility in generic concepts like "slow oxidiser vs fast oxidiser", especially when there is no verifiable clarifying context at all, and when the diagnosis for each category are a bunch of subjective metrics."

 

[Kartoffel]

I know people who said they tried things too. Doesn't mean they did it right. I doubt the people you know are knowledgable about how to properly do a water-only fast. I say that not to sound like a doosh but simply because it's true. People can say anything. The many types of "fasts" that people do are not really fasts. They often include eating windows, lemon juice, maple syrup and pills. You said they couldn't "work." You're not supposed to work while fasting. You're supposed to rest. That's a part of the fast. Also, if someone claims to feel like crap while "fasting" that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's called a healing crisis. But they would only know that if they researched water-only fasting. The first 2-3 days are supposed to be hard anyway, because you're not yet in ketosis.

As far as gbold's slow vs. fast oxidizer thing, tyw debunked it in one sentence.

Do you have any papers/journal articles/ case reports that you could send me? Like I said, I am still curious about some aspects of real water fasting...but to be honest things like healing crisis sound an awful lot like "detox" to me. In my experience people often use terms like that to explain away seriously harmful effects of their protocols, diets, etc.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Do you have any papers/journal articles/ case reports that you could send me? Like I said, I am still curious about some aspects of real water fasting...but to be honest things like healing crisis sound an awful lot like "detox" to me. In my experience people often use terms like that to explain away seriously harmful effects of their protocols, diets, etc.

I'll send you some stuff. The body does have a natural detox mechanism. It's peeing. Poop isn't in the blood. Only stuff that gets into the bloodstream is in you. Once in you, the kidneys filter it though urine. If you tested your urine you would find things you're "detoxing" from simply by living. If you sucked a vial of fat from your belly and got the fat tested you would find stuff. This isn't woo. It's real science. They've tested polar bears and found them to have environmental toxins and they're living in the"pristine" Arctic.

 

[Kartoffel]

I'll send you some stuff. The body does have a natural detox mechanism. It's peeing. Poop isn't in the blood. Only stuff that gets into the bloodstream is in you. Once in you, the kidneys filter it though urine. If you tested your urine you would find things you're "detoxing" from simply by living. If you sucked a vial of fat from your belly and got the fat tested you would find stuff. This isn't woo. It's real science. They've tested polar bears and found them to have environmental toxins and they're living in the"pristine" Arctic.

Thanks. I am not questioning that this is real science. I know that peeing is one way the body throws out toxins, but why do you have to fast in order to achieve that? Sure, you will pee more since you drink and burn fewer calories after a few days (hence less water is evaporated). But wouldn't simply drinking more water to increase urination while maintaining the same calorie intake acchieve similar results? So, one thing I would expect to see is that toxin excretion is significantly increased during fasting. Since the occean has basically become a huge bucket of toxic waste it makes sense that polar bears as marine hunters accumulate quite a bit of toxins. Poor guys. I don't eat anything from the occean anymore since I assume that basically every marine animal has accumulated a significant amount of toxins like microplastic by the time it's caught.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

but why do you have to fast in order to achieve that?

You don't. I was just making the point of us having toxins. I forgot to say that once they are in the blood, the kidneys can filter them or they can get packaged in fat and stored in adipose tissue. People water-only fast for other reasons outside of just detoxing including autophagy, stem cells, sirtuins, taste adaptation and "spiritual" reasons.

So, one thing I would expect to see is that toxin excretion is significantly increased during fasting.

It is but it depends on how "toxic" the person is. A person who's "clean" (obviously we can never be 100% clean in todays world) is likely to have a smooth and easy fast compared to a person full of toxins. That's where the healing crisis comes in. It's an acute response to get it out or fix the problem. Also, a persons who's done it before "adapts" to it so as to become more efficient at it when they do it say about once per year.

 

[Kartoffel]

You don't. I was just making the point of us having toxins. I forget to say that once they are in the blood, the kidneys can filter them or they can get packaged in fat and stored in adipose tissue. People water-only fast for other reasons outside of just detoxing including autophagy, stem cells, sirtuins, taste adaptation and "spiritual" reasons.



It is but it depends on how "toxic" the person is. A person who's "clean" (obvisoly we can never be 100% clean in todays world) is likely to have a smooth and easy fast compared to a person full of toxins. That's where the healing crisis comes in. It's an acute response to get it out or fix the problem.

Ok. Well, I haven't really seen any convincing evidence that for example increased stem cell production is not just a sign of increased need for repair caused by fasting. Stem cells are released if tissues are damaged and fasting is very catabolic and thus it makes sense that it activates stem cell signals. Same goes for autophagy.
Ray has mentioned that fasting will also seriously inhibit the liver's ability to detoxify and that fasting is actually going to increase your exposure to toxins. I haven't really looked into that but it kinda makes sense...

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Ok. Well, I haven't really seen any convincing evidence that for example increased stem cell production is not just a sign of increased need for repair caused by fasting. Stem cells are released if tissues are damaged and fasting is very catabolic and thus it makes sense that it activates stem cell signals. Same goes for autophagy.

Valter Longo has some stuff on it.

Ray has mentioned that fasting will also seriously inhibit the liver's ability to detoxify and that fasting is actually going to increase your exposure to toxins.

Better to increase your exposure to your stored toxins while you're younger and healthier than to keep them sitting there for years. The fact is they will continue to sit there until you do something about it. Then, after you get them out, live as "clean" as you can and/or are willing to. All Peat comments on fasting are on rodent and human calorie restriction and not human, water-only except for the one comment here. It's not an area with a lot of data so I wouldn't expect him or anyone to really know about it therefore be able to form objective thoughts about it.

 

[Wagner83]

I'll send you some stuff. The body does have a natural detox mechanism. It's peeing.

I think you have a low sodium diet, you mentioned salt made you retain water and I am much less thirsty for weeks now (eat quite a bit of salt). Is getting rid of toxins one of the reasons you don't eat much salt?

As far as gbold's slow vs. fast oxidizer thing, tyw debunked it in one sentence:

"I see zero utility in generic concepts like "slow oxidiser vs fast oxidiser", especially when there is no verifiable clarifying context at all, and when the diagnosis for each category are a bunch of subjective metrics."

I don't see how this quote would apply to hair and blood tests, those are not subjective metrics. You could say their importance or value are subjective though.

 

[Lurker]

@AretnaP
Back to the original topic...Is there doubt or confusion about the terms alkalosis/acidosis and their medical significance? Or compensations the body makes to maintain pH? I don’t understand the specifics of your question and what “proof” you are looking for.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

I think you have a low sodium diet, you mentioned salt made you retain water and I am much less thirsty for weeks now (eat quite a bit of salt). Is getting rid of toxins one of the reasons you don't eat much salt?

I'm experimenting with it. I want to see how I feel. Some claim that too much salt causes sleep problems because of nocturnal dehydration. They also claim that it kills the "good" microflora as well as the bad, like an antibiotic but killing the good ones are a negative thing. Some also claim that too much causes stomach cancer and kidney problems. Na is an essential nutrient but some claim that we only need as little as 300mg a day. Peat said craving is the best guide. But I want to see if it's true that we neural-adapt to low or no salt after 30 days. I also want to see how much water will come off.

What do you mean by "I am much less thirsty for weeks now?"

 

[Wagner83]

I'm experimenting with it. I want to see how I feel. Some claim that too much salt causes sleep problems because of nocturnal dehydration. They also claim that it kills the "good" microflora as well as the bad, like an antibiotic but killing the good ones are a negative thing. Some also claim that too much causes stomach cancer and kidney problems. Na is an essential nutrient but some claim that we only need as little as 300mg a day. Peat said craving is the best guide. But I want to see if it's true that we neural-adapt to low or no salt after 30 days. I also want to see how much water will come off.

What do you mean by "I am much less thirsty for weeks now?"

I have consumed a pretty significant amount of salt (for some time now) and for the past few weeks I have been much less thirsty, I need little liquid intake, I also urinate less, not sure how much of a good thing it is (if we excrete toxins through urine). Either I have much less toxins or I keep them inside. So in my experience I'm not sure if sodium leads to dehydration or the opposite. Travis said there were good scientists on both sides of the fence regarding salt intake.
For the record I know couple of people who had less taste for salt after eating less for some time.

 

[Travis]

I have consumed a pretty significant amount of salt (for some time now) and for the past few weeks I have been much less thirsty, I need little liquid intake, I also urinate less, not sure how much of a good thing it is (if we excrete toxins through urine). Either I have much less toxins or I keep them inside. So in my experience I'm not sure if sodium leads to dehydration or the opposite. Travis said there were good scientists on both sides of the fence regarding salt intake.
For the record I know couple of people who had less taste for salt after eating less for some time.

You can fill‐out the cronometer with all natural foods, essentially any all‐natural foods, and find that you cannot achieve the sodium RDA with any of them. That leads to the realization that all wild animals are getting less than their RDA for sodium (adjusted for weight); the only practical way to achieve this is through the artificial addition of sodium chloride to food. Since the natural foods cannot fulfill the RDA for sodium, I'm forced to conclude that this requirement suggestion is unnaturally high—perhaps set that way by the advisory board under the influence of sociopolitical forces, not scientific ones.

 

[tara]

But you could say the same thing for other things like "someone is going to end up seriously hurting themselves with one of these." fill in the blank: exogenous hormone supplement, exogenous unregulated/street hormone supplement, other supplements like mega dosing fat-solubles, diet, medication/non-supplement drug use, things like co2 tanks, ozone therapy, homeopathy, etc.

Yes, all of which is true. People can and do hurt themselves with those; caution is warranted. (Though the homeopathy sceptics don't usually say that people are going to kill themselves by overdosing, just that they might neglect more effective treatments.)

Anyone have anything to say about Gbold saying sugar is bad but still eating rice??

Fructose /= glucose.

Two identical studies with the same methods/controls will have the same results, and we really don't have a reason to believe otherwise.

Maybe. Sometimes. Depends on sample size and methodology and whether the relevant factors are controlled for. It's generally considered important (by scientists) to have multiple studies, not just one, to confirm a hypothesis.

Imagine trying to quit smoking; wheat and dairy have proteins which can release peptides with opiate‐like effects, demonstrated even by nerve conduction nociception—both blocked by naloxone. Dairy withdrawal alone is difficult for many people.

I was already open to the possibility that the reason I have such difficulty with milk has something to do with opioids. I seem to get them even from straight casein powder, where the other candidates - lactose, tyrosine, histamine - are not so much a thing.
And considering how milk seems to make me feel when I get too much of it, and how I've felt the couple of times I've had codeine and pethidine (similarly foggy-headed and dulled), I wouldn't be surprised if there were some similarity in their action.
A few weeks ago I wrote in a thread here that the reason I still sometimes eat/drink some dairy probably has an addictive component.
I just read about opiate withdrawal.
I'm only this week putting these obvious connections together, and wondering if it's not so much the direct effects of the dairy as the opiate-like withdrawal that causes me such trouble.

 

[Travis]

I was already open to the possibility that the reason I have such difficulty with milk has something to do with opioids. I seem to get them even from straight casein powder, where the other candidates - lactose, tyrosine, histamine - are not so much a thing.
And considering how milk seems to make me feel when I get too much of it, and how I've felt the couple of times I've had codeine and pethidine (similarly foggy-headed and dulled), I wouldn't be surprised if there were some similarity in their action.
A few weeks ago I wrote in a thread here that the reason I still sometimes eat/drink some dairy probably has an addictive component.
I just read about opiate withdrawal.
I'm only this week putting these obvious connections together, and wondering if it's not so much the direct effects of the dairy as the opiate-like withdrawal that causes me such trouble.

Well, you're one of the lucky ones. You need to hear about the depths of casomorphin withdrawal:

How some people ferment (or acid hydrolyze) casein powder, purify it into a crystalline form, grind it up into fine particles and snort it, or even mainline it. I've seen itinerant caso‐junkies trade with schoolchildren cigarettes for little milk cartons which then are impaled immediately with a hypodermic syringe—straight through the cardboard—under a highway overpass in the Bronx.​

Just kidding. It can be hard to stop eating cheese, but it's not that bad. I don't think it's a particularly harmful habit as long as you are in a good environment. Goat cheese has a more Peat‐friendly fatty acid profile, and is quite hypoallergenic. Also, the slightly different casein protein found in goat cheese has much less an opiate effect due to a proline for histidine substitution at position 67. I used to eat lots of raw goat cheddar, which I believe is better than pasteurized cow cheddar (for multiple reasons).

Milk is more difficult to find raw, but pasteurized goat milk can be found in stores.

 

[tara]

Well, you're one of the lucky ones. You need to hear about the depths of casomorphin withdrawal:

How some people ferment (or acid hydrolyze) casein powder, purify it into a crystalline form, grind it up into fine particles and snort it, or even mainline it. I've seen itinerant caso‐junkies trade with schoolchildren cigarettes for little milk cartons which then are impaled immediately with a hypodermic syringe—straight through the cardboard—under a highway overpass in the Bronx.​

Just kidding. It can be hard to stop eating cheese, but it's not that bad. I don't think it's a particularly harmful habit as long as you are in a good environment. Goat cheese has a more Peat‐friendly fatty acid profile, and is quite hypoallergenic. Also, the slightly different casein protein found in goat cheese has much less an opiate effect due to a proline for histidine substitution at position 67. I used to eat lots of raw goat cheddar, which I believe is better than pasteurized cow cheddar (for multiple reasons).

Milk is more difficult to find raw, but pasteurized goat milk can be found in stores.

Alas, what have I done? I've been known to give such milk cartons to my own children to take to school, and already, at such a tender age, one of them can barely start the day without their hit. I, their own mother - have been supplying them even with powder.

Thanks. :) Do you write for a living? I enjoy your posts.

Actually, aged cheeses really do seem to be harmful for me personally as more acute migraine triggers, enough so that I can usually resist them (even though I've never met a cheese I didn't love the taste of). I suspect the tyrosine (??) and/or histamine as potential additional factors.
I've tried both goat milk and A2 cow milk, and got similar symptoms from those as I get from regular cows milk (various versions) if I have more than a little.

 

[Travis]

Alas, what have I done? I've been known to give such milk cartons to my own children to take to school, and already, at such a tender age, one of them can barely start the day without their hit. I, their own mother - have been supplying them even with powder.

Thanks. :) Do you write for a living? I enjoy your posts.

Actually, aged cheeses really do seem to be harmful for me personally as more acute migraine triggers, enough so that I can usually resist them (even though I've never met a cheese I didn't love the taste of). I suspect the tyrosine (??) and/or histamine as potential additional factors.
I've tried both goat milk and A2 cow milk, and got similar symptoms from those as I get from regular cows milk (various versions) if I have more than a little.

It could be a protein response. Apparently, once a large foreign protein gets into the blood it can cause an antibody response. This varies, from person to person, depending on prior exposure. The proteins which are harder to digest would have a greater chance of being absorbed whole, and you'd think proteins heat‐treated in certain ways could increase their resistance to proteolysis. As an extreme example, frying an egg in canola oil could lead to new crosslinked epitopes as dialdyhydes produced from lipid peroxidation physically crosslink albumin between lysine and arginine side‐chains. Other forms of cooking could act to either break down whole proteins or have little effect.

This is a difficult area, as protein–immune responses are different in nearly everyone. The small molecules, such as β‐casomorphin‐7 and tyramine, are presumed to work in essentailly the same way in everyone. Such immune responses can have powerful effects, such as the increase in interferon‐γ. Many of the cytokines released by T cells then go on to other cells where they act to express phospholipase A₂ and iNOS, amplifying effects through the increased formation of nitric oxide and prostatglandins.

So besides the exorphins in wheat and dairy, there are the proteins to consider as well. The wheat protein is the № 1 allergenic food protein, so bad that there is even a disease named after it. Casein is near the top of the list. Whether this is a result of pasteurization, or residual amounts of casein in vaccines derived from the culturing media, is nearly impossible to determine. What is certain is that immune responses lie on a spectrum, and there can be low‐grade responses which appear somewhat mild. The fermentation of milk does not greatly increase polyamines, but leads to a reduction in steroid content and perhaps enhanced protein breakdown. Avoiding 'ultrapasteurized' milk could be something to try, and some brands are only heated at the minimum.

But perhaps, even the other casein types really do form opiates? It would be strange if only one sub‐breed of one animal had decided to produce them; you might think it was a general device which nature had added to milk for the express purpose of making nursing seem extra pleasurable—almost addictive. Since the endogenous opiate system in the body—the enkephalins and other neuropeptides—are proteins, then food proteins would be suspected for having the capacity for modulation (as does morphine, by chemical analogy to the N‐terminal tyrosine and proline of endogenous peptides).

The food chemistry behind milk pasteurization, homogenation, and pasteurization is complicated; the immune system is more complicated yet. It's hard to decide if the effects of goat milk are the result of another opiate‐peptide fragment or a low‐grade immune response. I know what you're saying; even raw goat cheese seemed to have certain effects on me (but much more subtle than that pasteurized from cows). I would think the less heat treated milk would be have less side‐effects.

Richet, Charles. "Anaphylaxis." Nobel Lecture (1913)