Dht

[Jing]

How many mgs of dht is produced daily ?

 

[Mauritio]

How many mgs of dht is produced daily ?

I have this quote in my notes:
"Nobody knows for sure as DHT is a paracrine steroid and gets synthesized in peripheral tissues as needed. The precursors are T, DHEA, and progesterone. I am listing these 3 as they all have their own independent pathways through which they can reach DHT. Some people will say that listing DHEA and T is redundant, but that is incorrect as DHEA can bypass the step going through testosterone and so can progesterone. About 1mg DHT daily is synthesized from T. However, a person can produce up to 15mg DHEA daily and studies show up to 70% of that can get converted into DHT into tissues that need it like the prostate, brain, gonads, etc. The conversion of progesterone into androgens is virtually unknown but it definitely happens as shown by that study in rats where giving HED 600mg progesterone increased DHT levels by a factor of 7-10. I suppose the only way to get a good idea is to do a long term study on excretion of DHT metabolites like ADG but even that has drawbacks as ADG is more indicative of DHT turnover than synthesis. Some people retain DHT a lot better while others metabolize and excrete it much more rapidly.
There are human populations with exceptionally high levels of DHT which can only come from endogenous synthesis of 5m - 8mg DHT daily. So, the known upper limit observed in humans is 8mg. But the theoretical upper limit is much higher - probably in the range of 20mg - 25mg daily. It is not a coincidence that DHT doses below 25mg do not (usually) suppress HPGA. The body likes its DHT and wants to get as much as possible within the physiological limits."

 

[TheBeard]

I have this quote in my notes:
"Nobody knows for sure as DHT is a paracrine steroid and gets synthesized in peripheral tissues as needed. The precursors are T, DHEA, and progesterone. I am listing these 3 as they all have their own independent pathways through which they can reach DHT. Some people will say that listing DHEA and T is redundant, but that is incorrect as DHEA can bypass the step going through testosterone and so can progesterone. About 1mg DHT daily is synthesized from T. However, a person can produce up to 15mg DHEA daily and studies show up to 70% of that can get converted into DHT into tissues that need it like the prostate, brain, gonads, etc. The conversion of progesterone into androgens is virtually unknown but it definitely happens as shown by that study in rats where giving HED 600mg progesterone increased DHT levels by a factor of 7-10. I suppose the only way to get a good idea is to do a long term study on excretion of DHT metabolites like ADG but even that has drawbacks as ADG is more indicative of DHT turnover than synthesis. Some people retain DHT a lot better while others metabolize and excrete it much more rapidly.
There are human populations with exceptionally high levels of DHT which can only come from endogenous synthesis of 5m - 8mg DHT daily. So, the known upper limit observed in humans is 8mg. But the theoretical upper limit is much higher - probably in the range of 20mg - 25mg daily. It is not a coincidence that DHT doses below 25mg do not (usually) suppress HPGA. The body likes its DHT and wants to get as much as possible within the physiological limits."

Great read.

25mg might not be enough to suppress the HPGA, but it tanked my e2 enough to make me feel like an old man with joints cracking and no emotions

 

[Mauritio]

Great read.

25mg might not be enough to suppress the HPGA, but it tanked my e2 enough to make me feel like an old man with joints cracking and no emotions

I think 25mg is way too much and it does not surprise me that you got problems from that high of a dose.
Peat thinks you get benefits from 3-5mg , I actually get benefits from as low as 1mg! (keto-dht) ...
I think there have been some cases on the forum that got suppression from doses like that ( speaking about T) ,thats why I am currently trying 6-keto-progesterone together with it , for raising T levels and DHT.

 

[golder]

I think 25mg is way too much and it does not surprise me that you got problems from that high of a dose.
Peat thinks you get benefits from 3-5mg , I actually get benefits from as low as 1mg! (keto-dht) ...
I think there have been some cases on the forum that got suppression from doses like that ( speaking about T) ,thats why I am currently trying 6-keto-progesterone together with it , for raising T levels and DHT.

How much 5DHP do you take alongside the DHT? Are they both taken sublingually dissolved in vitamin E? Really interested in hearing your results with this interesting combination. Thanks Mauritio!

 

[Mauritio]

How much 5DHP do you take alongside the DHT? Are they both taken sublingually dissolved in vitamin E? Really interested in hearing your results with this interesting combination. Thanks Mauritio!

I am taking 6.keto-progesterone not 5adhp ! or was that a typo ?
I actually find it is one of the few things that really make a difference , i am not gonna talk about it much as I am just 3 days in ,but so far it seems promising. always had the feeling that with 6 keto alone there was something missing, namely the DHT route! I actually loose weight and am less puffy witg both, 6 keto alone seems to only bulk me up ...

 

[golder]

Apologies, meant to type 6keto not 5adhp.
What doseages of the 6keto and DHT combo seem to be working well for you at the moment?
Cheers!

 

[Mauritio]

I actually dilutet 11keto to 0,1mg per drop because it was too strong ,metabolism wise.
I take 1-1,5mg of DHT per day . So I always take 2-4 drops of my diluted DHT together with 1 drop of 6keto. So overall when I have dont forgett to take it , 3-4 mg 6keto progesterone plus 1-1,5 mg DHT and if I think of it some topical pregnenolone ( 1-2 drops) .
I also tried the combo 6keto-progesterone + 11ketodht+ pansterone ,which also worked good ,but I am not sure yet if it really makes a difference, and theres always the danger of aromatization of DHEA which the first combo has not, but I still might try that occasionaly.

I am also thinking about trying progesterone with DHT ...

Have you tried any combo like that? I think haidut said somewhere that progesterone and DHT might be all you really need to supplement hormone wise.

 

[sladerunner69]

I have heard that thyroid can suppress DHT? Anyone have any knowledge on the subject?

 

[milkboi]

I have heard that thyroid can suppress DHT? Anyone have any knowledge on the subject?

Never heard of that. I think thyroid increases 5-ar, so shouldn't it do the opposite?

 

[sladerunner69]

Never heard of that. I think thyroid increases 5-ar, so shouldn't it do the opposite?

Theoretically, yes. That is why I have used it. However I heard someone say that it opposes DHT.

I tend to get overly anxious, have difficulty concentrating and sometimes have panic attacks when I take thyroid. So this maybe why.

 

[opethfeldt]

Theoretically, yes. That is why I have used it. However I heard someone say that it opposes DHT.

I tend to get overly anxious, have difficulty concentrating and sometimes have panic attacks when I take thyroid. So this maybe why.

Haidut posted a study a while back showing 10x higher DHT in hyperthyroidism. Plus, the increase in 5ar from t3 leads me to believe DHT can't possibly be reduced by thyroid. More than likely, thyroid sensitized you to adrenaline or caused an increase in cortisol, which caused your symptoms. Thyroid can be difficult to dose.

 

[sladerunner69]

Haidut posted a study a while back showing 10x higher DHT in hyperthyroidism. Plus, the increase in 5ar from t3 leads me to believe DHT can't possibly be reduced by thyroid. More than likely, thyroid sensitized you to adrenaline or caused an increase in cortisol, which caused your symptoms. Thyroid can be difficult to dose.

Well, regardless of the dose I take, I feel groggy and anxious. Even if it is just single drop of tyro-mix before bed, I will wake up in a mess of anxiety usually from some indescribably nightmare.

Haidut himself does not like taking thyroid, at least not more than a single dose. That is generally what happens to me. I will take a drop and feel kind of great. Then I might take another later that day, or the next morning, and I will feel just okay, and by the third dose or so I will feel completely off. I've had bad panic attacks this way.

What do you mean thyroid sensitized me to adrenaline? As in because my adrenaline levels are typically so low, when they increase I get extra anxiety?

Another problem I have been having is muscle/nerve pain. My shoulders and back ache, and I sometimes wake up from sharp nerve pains in my hands or feet. This seems to definitely get worse when I take thyroid. I am wondering if the thyroid is too strongly opposing estrogen. I have read from bodybuilders using aromatase inhibitors, that side effects of very low estrogen are bone, joint and nerve pain. This sounds an awful lot like what I have been going through.

 

[opethfeldt]

Well, regardless of the dose I take, I feel groggy and anxious. Even if it is just single drop of tyro-mix before bed, I will wake up in a mess of anxiety usually from some indescribably nightmare.

Haidut himself does not like taking thyroid, at least not more than a single dose. That is generally what happens to me. I will take a drop and feel kind of great. Then I might take another later that day, or the next morning, and I will feel just okay, and by the third dose or so I will feel completely off. I've had bad panic attacks this way.

What do you mean thyroid sensitized me to adrenaline? As in because my adrenaline levels are typically so low, when they increase I get extra anxiety?

Another problem I have been having is muscle/nerve pain. My shoulders and back ache, and I sometimes wake up from sharp nerve pains in my hands or feet. This seems to definitely get worse when I take thyroid. I am wondering if the thyroid is too strongly opposing estrogen. I have read from bodybuilders using aromatase inhibitors, that side effects of very low estrogen are bone, joint and nerve pain. This sounds an awful lot like what I have been going through.

Thyroid apparently makes the body more sensitive to adrenaline. I do know some people just don't tolerate thyroid. Do you know for sure you're hypo? (High tsh?) It may just not be needed for you. As for the joint and bone pain, that does sound a lot like low estrogen. I never felt great focusing on DHT, specifically because of low estrogen issues. I feel best with test a little higher. When i focused solely on DHT and lowering estrogen, i felt like an old man sometimes. Too much of a good thing i guess. Food for thought.

 

[sladerunner69]

Thyroid apparently makes the body more sensitive to adrenaline. I do know some people just don't tolerate thyroid. Do you know for sure you're hypo? (High tsh?) It may just not be needed for you. As for the joint and bone pain, that does sound a lot like low estrogen. I never felt great focusing on DHT, specifically because of low estrogen issues. I feel best with test a little higher. When i focused solely on DHT and lowering estrogen, i felt like an old man sometimes. Too much of a good thing i guess. Food for thought.

No I am not sure I am hypothyroid. I am asking for bloodtests tomorrow, and will add that to the list I suppose. I did take finasteride years ago, and crashed horribly. I still don't feel too good, and have been trying thyroid to help defeat fatigue and anxiety, which are still problems. The first dose is usually good, but after the second or third dose within a day or two I feel pretty off. I can't concentrate and feel strange. My heart races, etc.

I think maybe it's time to revisit things that will directly stimulate 5ar, like androsterone.