DHT Production Depends On Stress

[Nick Ireland]

Elephanto - I had low normal T, high DHT and high SHBG in serum tests. The DHT leaned me out and defined me, though i was not seeking that effect. DHT protects the 5AR enzyme by limiting the effects of hormones which prevent it's production. If men are old, it means they are living into old age and it could be argued that DHT is a protective factor. Statistically saying DHT is negative because it appears high at a time when older men are suffering from inflammatory or degenerative diseases is like saying fire trucks cause house fires because they turn up at most of them.
In studies where men were given supra T doses with a DHT blocker, the non blocked DHT group had better mood, more muscle bulk and leaner physiques.

 

[Elephanto]

From what I've read, SHBG can be promoted by Estradiol too that's why it doesn't always correlate with low dht. There are other stuff that can promote DHT, like proinflammatory cytokines (IL-1 increases it by 2-fold). Old people have higher proinflammatory cytokines (and testosterone protects against most of them, but for instance DHT induces the very proinflammatory cytokine IL-6, while testosterone promotes the antiinflammatory cytokine IL-10).

The DHT blocker was probably a 5-a reductase blocker, which has other functions like I mentionned. DHT isn't in the pathway to produce allopregnenolone.

I don't know if pregnenolone increases 5-ar, but since it is the rate-limiting factor of every steroid hormones, then it is expected to raise DHT.

 

[haidut]

From what I've read, SHBG can be promoted by Estradiol too that's why it doesn't always correlate with low dht. There are other stuff that can promote DHT, like proinflammatory cytokines (IL-1 increases it by 2-fold). Old people have higher proinflammatory cytokines (and testosterone protects against most of them, but for instance DHT induces the very proinflammatory cytokine IL-6, while testosterone promotes the antiinflammatory cytokine IL-10).

The DHT blocker was probably a 5-a reductase blocker, which has other functions like I mentionned. DHT isn't in the pathway to produce allopregnenolone.

I don't know if pregnenolone increases 5-ar, but since it is the rate-limiting factor of every steroid hormones, then it is expected to raise DHT.

Pregnenolone on its own does not have androgenic effect in the vast majority of people. On the contrary - due to the increase in progesterone it is somewhat feminizing. However, combined with DHEA it seems to amplify the conversion of DHEA into T and DHT and reduce its conversion into estrogen (due to the increase in progesterone which keeps estrogen under control).
There is a clinical trial in Russia with pregnenolone + DHEA for andropause. I think the dose is 30mg pregnenolone and 10mg DHEA per pill but the optimal dose is not yet known. The trial should be able to find that out.

 

[Elephanto]

You posted a study about progesterone increasing testosterone and dht, and it's an aromatase blocker. I don't feel any feminizing effect from progesterone personally.

I wonder if Peat knows testosterone increases IL-10, which is pretty much the one cytokine that protects against every other inflammatory ones without any bad effect (contrarily to tgf beta). and that inflammatory cytokines induce dht and that dht induce inflammatory cytokines. If you'd look at healthy young athletes, I bet they would all have high test and relatively low dht. Testosterone downregulates the androgen receptor and dht upregulates it, most of the thing that affect men negatively is done through the androgen receptor, including estrogen.

 

[haidut]

You posted a study about progesterone increasing testosterone and dht, and it's an aromatase blocker. I don't feel any feminizing effect from progesterone personally.

I wonder if Peat knows testosterone increases IL-10, which is pretty much the one cytokine that protects against every other inflammatory ones without any bad effect (contrarily to tgf beta). and that inflammatory cytokines induce dht and that dht induce inflammatory cytokines. If you'd look at healthy young athletes, I bet they would all have high test and relatively low dht. Testosterone downregulates the androgen receptor and dht upregulates it, most of the thing that affect men negatively is done through the androgen receptor, including estrogen.

This study disagrees with you - i.e. it seems that DHT is actually quite anti-inflammatory:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443794/

In other words, it claims that DHT is a potent suppressor of inflammatory biomarkers, especially IL-6 and CRP. The study is also very interesting as it suggests that the highly osteotrophic properties of tetracyclines are due to them upregulating synthesis of DHT, and it is this increase in DHT that results in blocking osteoporosis. The effective concentrations for maximum effects of doxycycline on DHT production was found to be 10mcg/ml, which in humans is achievable by 400mg oral doxycycline. There are several clinical trials on "submicrobial doxycycline dose" (SDD) for osteoporosis (20mg twice a day, 40mg total) and some of them found increases in DHT, but not T.
Finally, the study above references another human study in which 6 months of SDD doxycycline (20mg twice a day) lowered CRP by 46% and IL-6 by more than 30%. Not sure if this is due to DHT, but all tetracyclines are powerful reducers of estrogen. Estrogen is itself an inhibitor of 5-AR so in theory the tetracyclines should increase DHT, which is what the study above found. Unfortunately, it is vitro but the results are still pretty consistent with the human trials with tetracyclines.

 

[Elephanto]

Dihydrotestosterone-Inducible IL-6 Inhibits Elongation of Human Hair Shafts
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v132/ ... 1274a.html

Doxycycline up-regulates the expression of IL-6
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21439396

I don't know, seems like we have contradictory studies. Most of the stuff I read about DHT is bad except muscle anabolism. Everything that induces it is inflammatory (IL-1, stress, etc). DHT and cortisol induce Dickkopf-1, linked to neurodegeneration. (magnesium l-threonate inhibit it and is the only form of magnesium known to pass the brain barrier)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25459913
An increase in DKK-1 may limit the effects of GH on bone mass

^ Based on this, I'd say doxycycline's function is to restrict DHT by inducing il-6 (they go through a negative feedback) and since DHT's DKK-1 has a restrictive effect on bone, then inhibiting it results in blocking of osteoporosis. Just a guess.

-

Found this about Dhea.

A significant elevation of serum IGF-1 and osteocalcin concentrations was found as early as after six weeks of DHEA treatment.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22430044

No wonder Ray grew on this. Note that this is serum igf-1.

 

[Nick Ireland]

No wonder doxy and other anti B's have depression as a side effect if they are restricting DHT production. As I said before, DHT has proven antidepressant therapeutic value - comparable with any tricyclic.

DHT must be balanced with T. For a start, if studies are focused on older men typically exposed to SAD diets the ratios will be out because their long term diets tank T while DHT conversion rises as an androgenic compensatory mechanism. If DHT is rising in stress conditions, it's not to make the person worse - it is to preserve 'normal' function where possible. Ray's endocrine advice and methods are to reestablish hormonal balance through diet and some sensitive intervention where necessary. For instance, a few mg of T per day - not 200mg a week?!

Just like the antidepressant 'theory-de-jour' explanations of their activities, nobody actually knows exactly how these multiple layered systems work. Thirty years and billions in sales, yet the academics who developed and tweak SSRI's haven't got a clue how they work and they are no better (and actually more dangerous) than the tricyclic class. In fact SSRIs are causing more suicides than they are supposed to prevent.

""The rule-makers naively (or not-so-naively) assumed that all scientists are so far above common human weaknesses that to institute any mechanism to monitor and correct untoward behaviors would be too insulting to the scientists. Therefore, none was installed." Gilbert Ling.

Our medical research field is driven by ego, profit and frankly wreaks of immaturity through a lack communication and freedom of expression. The fish oil industry is a classic. Years of fraudulent scientific assertions, political lobbying and corruption at the high levels, and our seas raped of a precious life form. I'm supposed to respect these people? A white labcoat doesn't make a decent man.

Ray's ideas are 'radical' to so many scientists because he takes an entirely different approach. He doesn't break the body into organs or components. The simplicity of his energy in-energy out theory makes sense to me. I've read thousands of studies. But the devil wasn't in the detail. It was the lack of an all encompassing raison d'être. I've also read hundreds of Haidut's posts and as far as I am concerned, he gets it - and makes it easier to understand for a lot of folks. All the studies in the world don't make a damn bit of difference unless you know how to piece them together into some sort of coherent strategy. I've had hundreds of blood tests performed thanks to a brilliant physician and we have worked on various strategies of diet and drugs. But when 15000iu of Retinol per day cut my estrogen by 35% and prolactin by 50% after ten days I knew a lot of other people had to be talking out of their ****.

 

[miko]

I think men should keep DHT as low as possible and testosterone as high as possible. Once I have tried dutasteride and my muscles grow up in just one month without excercise (I think it was from testosterone elevation).

 

[Wagner83]

After experiencing with sorghum a few times I can say that it suppresses submissive sexual fantaisies, I have a lot more energy and feel a lot better for the most part when I consume it. However scalp becomes more oily and hair loss kicks in fast and hard. I wonder if it works by increasing cortisol (stress produced when digested), not sure the study showing an increase in 5ar showed any connection with cortisol though.
I'm this point I'm pondering shaving my head and consuming sorghum often .

 

[haidut]

I think men should keep DHT as low as possible and testosterone as high as possible. Once I have tried dutasteride and my muscles grow up in just one month without excercise (I think it was from testosterone elevation).

Don't know if I agree with that statement. DHT is a known and potent neurosteroid while T is not. DHT is the real androgen in tissues and T is probably simply a convenient pro-hormone that floats around. DHT and androsterone are a lot more potent thyromimetics than T. The health (and expected longevity) of a male is better measured through grip strength (DHT) and not by muscle size (T). Children up to beginning of puberty have high androsterone/etiocholanolone ratio, which roughly represents DHT/T ratio, and that ratio steadily declines with age. Not that T is that bad, but I have not seen any evidence that keeping T high and DHT low is the way to go for males.

 

[Jsaute21]

Besides sorghum ingestion, what do we feel is the best way for DHT promtion without resorting to DHEA or pregnenolone? I had my DHT tested for my first time ever and it came back in low end of reference range, which i was dissapointed to find. I know you say bloods aren't the be all end all @haidut but i would obviously like to raise these scores.

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Besides sorghum ingestion, what do we feel is the best way for DHT promtion without resorting to DHEA or pregnenolone? I had my DHT tested for my first time ever and it came back in low end of reference range, which i was dissapointed to find. I know you say bloods aren't the be all end all @haidut but i would obviously like to raise these scores.

Bump.

I am trying to max out my DHT. I am also consuming pregnenolone, however I believe I should stop, because I don't know which pathway it's going into. Today I drank two cups of coffee and had a full blown panic attack and deralization like it all converted to cortisol.

I have been eating Sorghum also, I think it is helping.

I can't recommend enough Heavy low rep Squats and Dead lifts.

 

[Mito]

Some of the later metabolites of estrogen include 2-OH-estradiol, 4-OH-estradiol, 2-methoxy-estradiol, 4-methoxy-estradiol. Unfortunately, I don't know of a lab that would do such tests. Just my 2c.

Precision Analytics dutch test includes 2-OH-E1 and 2-Methoxy-E1. They calculate a methylation gauge using the ratio of 2-OH-E1/2-MeOH-E1. There is no calculation of the 4-OH-E1/4-MeOH-E1 because there is not enough 4-MeOH-E1 in urine. Their opinion is that "Normal or high methylation activity is important in protecting the body from the harmful 4-OH estrogens made in phase 1 detoxification."

Do you generally agree with that opinion that normal or high methylation of the estrogen metabolites is protective?

 

[haidut]

Precision Analytics dutch test includes 2-OH-E1 and 2-Methoxy-E1. They calculate a methylation gauge using the ratio of 2-OH-E1/2-MeOH-E1. There is no calculation of the 4-OH-E1/4-MeOH-E1 because there is not enough 4-MeOH-E1 in urine. Their opinion is that "Normal or high methylation activity is important in protecting the body from the harmful 4-OH estrogens made in phase 1 detoxification."

Do you generally agree with that opinion that normal or high methylation of the estrogen metabolites is protective?

I have yet to see a case where high methylation is good. If they have studies to back up that claim please share.

 

[Mito]

I have yet to see a case where high methylation is good. If they have studies to back up that claim please share.

They wouldn't provide a study. Just the claim that if the if 2-OHE1 and 4-OHE1 are not methylated (by COMT), then they are more likely to be converted to the pro-carcinogenic 3,4 Quinones metabolites.

 

[TeslaFan]

These catechol-estrogens (deactivated by COMT) are the most toxic estrogen metabolites. In fact, most of the bad rep that estrogen gets (like estrogen induced cancers) is because of these guys.

 

[ddjd]

Peat has said that in his opinion testosterone is almost as dangerous as estrogen. He said he thinks dysregulation of testosterone metabolism is the primary cause behind diseases like ALS. In light of that, he has told people over email that supplementing DHT would be much safer than T even though he also said that small doses of T can be beneficial as well.

so maybe my Total Testosterone of 300 is a good thing?

 

[Mito]

These catechol-estrogens (deactivated by COMT) are the most toxic estrogen metabolites. In fact, most of the bad rep that estrogen gets (like estrogen induced cancers) is because of these guys.

Is there a way to limit Estrone from metabolizing to 4-OH-E1 instead of the relatively safer 2-OH-E1 & 16-OH-E1 metabolites?

 

[Deleted member 5487]

DHT does depend on stress. That stress comes from the gut. Balding comes from the gut.

 

[JDreamer]

DHT does depend on stress. That stress comes from the gut. Balding comes from the gut.

OK, so then what .........?

I know for me personally my hair issues really started amping up with my gut issues.