DHT Metabolites Declines As Men Age

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http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem.82.8.4160
The present data show a dramatic decline in the circulating levels of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), DHEA-sulfate (DHEA-S), androst-5-ene-3β,17β-diol (5-diol), 5-diol-sulfate, 5-diol-fatty acid esters, and androstenedione in both men and women between the ages of 20–80 yr. In the 50- to 60-yr-old group, serum DHEA decreased by 74% and 70% from its peak values in 20- to 30-yr-old men and women, respectively. The serum concentrations of the conjugated metabolites of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), namely androsterone (ADT)-G, androstane-3α,17β-diol (3α-diol-G), androstane-3β,17β-diol (3β-diol-G), and ADT-sulfate are the most reliable parameters of the total androgen pool in both men and women, whereas serum testosterone and DHT can be used as markers of testicular secretion in men and interstitial ovarian secretion in women. The serum concentration of these various conjugated androgen metabolites decreased by 40.8% to 72.8% between the 20- to 30-yr-old and 70- to 80-yr-old age groups in men and women, respectively, thus suggesting a parallel decrease in the total androgen pool with age.


I think the key here is that although some studies show DHT doesn't decline that much with aging in men, the metabolites DO decline a LOT. This may mean it is much better to supplement with androsterone than with DHT, for instance.


http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/2/M76.short
T is actively metabolized to the potent estrogen, estradiol (E2), by the enzyme aromatase, which is located primarily in adipose tissue, and to 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a more potent androgen than T, by the enzymes 5 alpha-reductase type 1 and 2, which are located predominantly in skin and the prostate (132)(133)(134).

Many of the actions of T are mediated, at least in part, by its active metabolites, E2 (e.g., bone, brain, and lipids) and DHT (e.g., prostate). Despite declining T levels, serum total E2 and DHT levels do not change or decrease only slightly with aging (24)(26)(34)(37)(38)(135)(136)(137)(138)(139).

This suggests that, with aging, there is a relative increase in aromatization of T to E2 (perhaps due to increased adipose tissue mass) and 5 alpha-reduction of T to DHT and/or reductions in the metabolic clearance of E2 and DHT. Because serum SHBG levels increase with aging, serum bioavailable or free E2 and DHT levels would be expected to decrease with aging.


I think the key here is that DHT isn't converted into other androgens as efficiently, perhaps due to higher estrogen levels as men age.
 

Agent207

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I think the key here is that DHT isn't converted into other androgens as efficiently, perhaps due to higher estrogen levels as men age.

Good catch. So as I understand, the first thing should be to avoid the serum T decline, while keeping aromatase activity under control.
 
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ecstatichamster
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Actually healthy men don't experience testosterone decline with aging. T declines with health problems.
 

Agent207

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Yeah, actually healthy men live forever. Death occurs because health problems.
 

ddjd

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I think the key here is that although some studies show DHT doesn't decline that much with aging in men, the metabolites DO decline a LOT. This may mean it is much better to supplement with androsterone than with DHT, for instanc
Which studies. Almost all the studies I've seen say Testosterone and dht both decrease with age
 
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As I see it, the optimal choice should be supplementing with the most primary element possible on the cascade needed to restore proper levels. This is dhea or testosterone, as long as you wont be obese; and keep a healthy lifestyle to stay fit over your life. I don't think is good to go against estrogen if you don't have an excess of adipose tissue. You want balance of your younger years on t, dht, estrogen, progesterone (as well as insulin sensivity and thyroid, of course).
 

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As I see it, the optimal choice should be supplementing with the most primary element possible on the cascade needed to restore proper levels. This is dhea or testosterone, as long as you wont be obese; and keep a healthy lifestyle to stay fit over your life. I don't think is good to go against estrogen if you don't have an excess of adipose tissue. You want balance of your younger years on t, dht, estrogen, progesterone (as well as insulin sensivity and thyroid, of course).
DHEA is a good way to increase overall androgen levels such as T, DHT and other androgens.
T can be used too, but is unavailable to the general public.
I have had good effects from low-doses topical DHEA, oral DHEA makes me irritable which suggests it converts into estrogen.
I have never used T, as it is unavailable.
 

haidut

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Marked Decline in Serum Concentrations of Adrenal C19 Sex Steroid Precursors and Conjugated Androgen Metabolites During Aging | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic
The present data show a dramatic decline in the circulating levels of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), DHEA-sulfate (DHEA-S), androst-5-ene-3β,17β-diol (5-diol), 5-diol-sulfate, 5-diol-fatty acid esters, and androstenedione in both men and women between the ages of 20–80 yr. In the 50- to 60-yr-old group, serum DHEA decreased by 74% and 70% from its peak values in 20- to 30-yr-old men and women, respectively. The serum concentrations of the conjugated metabolites of dihydrotestosterone (DHT), namely androsterone (ADT)-G, androstane-3α,17β-diol (3α-diol-G), androstane-3β,17β-diol (3β-diol-G), and ADT-sulfate are the most reliable parameters of the total androgen pool in both men and women, whereas serum testosterone and DHT can be used as markers of testicular secretion in men and interstitial ovarian secretion in women. The serum concentration of these various conjugated androgen metabolites decreased by 40.8% to 72.8% between the 20- to 30-yr-old and 70- to 80-yr-old age groups in men and women, respectively, thus suggesting a parallel decrease in the total androgen pool with age.


I think the key here is that although some studies show DHT doesn't decline that much with aging in men, the metabolites DO decline a LOT. This may mean it is much better to supplement with androsterone than with DHT, for instance.


Andropause: Clinical Implications of the Decline in Serum Testosterone Levels With Aging in Men | The Journals of Gerontology: Series A | Oxford Academic
T is actively metabolized to the potent estrogen, estradiol (E2), by the enzyme aromatase, which is located primarily in adipose tissue, and to 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a more potent androgen than T, by the enzymes 5 alpha-reductase type 1 and 2, which are located predominantly in skin and the prostate (132)(133)(134).

Many of the actions of T are mediated, at least in part, by its active metabolites, E2 (e.g., bone, brain, and lipids) and DHT (e.g., prostate). Despite declining T levels, serum total E2 and DHT levels do not change or decrease only slightly with aging (24)(26)(34)(37)(38)(135)(136)(137)(138)(139).

This suggests that, with aging, there is a relative increase in aromatization of T to E2 (perhaps due to increased adipose tissue mass) and 5 alpha-reduction of T to DHT and/or reductions in the metabolic clearance of E2 and DHT. Because serum SHBG levels increase with aging, serum bioavailable or free E2 and DHT levels would be expected to decrease with aging.


I think the key here is that DHT isn't converted into other androgens as efficiently, perhaps due to higher estrogen levels as men age.

Thanks. As the study says, serum T/DHT are indications of gonadal function in men and women while the DHT metabolites represent the total pool of androgens which is blood + tissue levels. As another human studies showed, oral/topical DHEA increased all of these DHT metabolites. So, the study can be interpreted as saying that gonadal T/DHT production in males does NOT decline with age but tissue levels DO decline. Since tissue levels of androgens depend mostly on precursors like DHEA/androsterone, the decline is not surprising due to the massive decline of both DHEA and androsterone with aging. The decline in DHEA is likely due to elevated estrogen/cortisol.
Even A Slight Increase In Estrogen Strongly Decreases DHEA Levels

So, some possible approaches would be inhibiting estrogen synthesis in any way possible while also providing DHT precursors like androsterone (like you said) since androsterone cannot be aromatized. Given that androsterone itself is aromatase inhibitor, it may be enough to simply use that to achieve both lower estrogen and higher androgens. It has already been shown that androsterone administration in humans raises DHEA levels, so it seems consistent with what the idea of lower estrogen being beneficial for androgen profile in aging.
@Vinero
 
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DHEA is a good way to increase overall androgen levels such as T, DHT and other androgens.
T can be used too, but is unavailable to the general public.
I have had good effects from low-doses topical DHEA, oral DHEA makes me irritable which suggests it converts into estrogen.
I have never used T, as it is unavailable.

What dose of dhea you take? dhea may make you irritable, but converting to estrogen is a long time debune myth; it just may happen, but in doses over 50mg and over. Also i may depend the fat tissue a person have.. the fattier, the more chance. Did you use micronized lipidmatrix oral?

We're not general public... "general public" doesn't know ray peat, what a pufa is, faccy acids properties, a minor basis on endocrinology... for anyone who does, it won't be a problem to get some decent testosterone base powder.
 

Vinero

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What dose of dhea you take? dhea may make you irritable, but converting to estrogen is a long time debune myth; it just may happen, but in doses over 50mg and over. Also i may depend the fat tissue a person have.. the fattier, the more chance. Did you use micronized lipidmatrix oral?

We're not general public... "general public" doesn't know ray peat, what a pufa is, faccy acids properties, a minor basis on endocrinology... for anyone who does, it won't be a problem to get some decent testosterone base powder.
5 mg oral DHEA makes me irritable, and it's not a quality issue of the supplement in question, since using the same DHEA supplement topically gives me nice feelings and androgenic effects.
 

Vinero

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Thanks. As the study says, serum T/DHT are indications of gonadal function in men and women while the DHT metabolites represent the total pool of androgens which is blood + tissue levels. As another human studies showed, oral/topical DHEA increased all of these DHT metabolites. So, the study can be interpreted as saying that gonadal T/DHT production in males does NOT decline with age but tissue levels DO decline. Since tissue levels of androgens depend mostly on precursors like DHEA/androsterone, the decline is not surprising due to the massive decline of both DHEA and androsterone with aging. The decline in DHEA is likely due to elevated estrogen/cortisol.
Even A Slight Increase In Estrogen Strongly Decreases DHEA Levels

So, some possible approaches would be inhibiting estrogen synthesis in any way possible while also providing DHT precursors like androsterone (like you said) since androsterone cannot be aromatized. Given that androsterone itself is aromatase inhibitor, it may be enough to simply use that to achieve both lower estrogen and higher androgens. It has already been shown that androsterone administration in humans raises DHEA levels, so it seems consistent with what the idea of lower estrogen being beneficial for androgen profile in aging.
@Vinero
What dose do you think is required for Androsterone to increase DHEA, inhibit estrogen, and increase DHT?
I think Ray is very cautious about Androsterone, he recommends only taking 1 mg a day.
His reasoning was that a person can cause long-term imbalances when taking high doses of end-point androgens.
Maybe 1 mg of androsterone is enough anyway, since I have read reviews from people that used 1 mg every two or three days and still had good effects from it like better sleep, better mood etc.
 
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ddjd

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What dose do you think is required for Androsterone to increase DHEA, inhibit estrogen, and increase DHT?
I think Ray is very cautious about Androsterone, he recommends only taking 1 mg a day.
His reasoning was that a person can cause long-term imbalances when taking high doses of end-point androgens.
Maybe 1 mg of androsterone is enough anyway, since I have read reviews from people that used 1 mg every two or three days and still had good effects from it like better sleep, better mood etc.
bobybuilding products contain 100mg per capsule and they say take 3 a day! crazy
 

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haidut

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What dose do you think is required for Androsterone to increase DHEA, inhibit estrogen, and increase DHT?
I think Ray is very cautious about Androsterone, he recommends only taking 1 mg a day.
His reasoning was that a person can cause long-term imbalances when taking high doses of end-point androgens.
Maybe 1 mg of androsterone is enough anyway, since I have read reviews from people that used 1 mg every two or three days and still had good effects from it like better sleep, better mood etc.

I think 5mg androsterone is enough for aromatase inhbition (and thus raise DHEA) and it should feed the pathways without much suppression/buildup to cause the issues Ray is concerned about. Androsterone, just like DHEA, gets highly metabolized when the doses is lower and it goes mostly into DHT (~30%), androstanediol (~40%) and androstanedione (~30%). Very little of it stays as androsterone.
For some people even 1mg may be enough depending on their state of health/metabolism.
 

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